[<Bigfatbananacyclops>] Nabski - Disposal's Looper Note

[Nabski]

BYOND account: Nabski
Character name: Gene Ball
Ban type: Note
Ban length: RED SERVERITY!!!
Ban reason: Jumped into a fight against a head of staff who was defending himself, with the reason that he pushed a person into a disposal loop and batting other assistants, when he was actually defending himself. Even though gene had no part in this and information about what happened, he jumped into the fight and proceeded to guillotine the CE, based on false claims that he was the one who built the loop.
Time ban was placed: 2020-12-30 01:10:42
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil
Round ID in which ban was placed: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/153 ... TTACK-4232 I have linked to this specific spot because it is the first attack I saw.

Spoiler:

https://imgur.com/wGbaYLY imgur link for proof of that

Your side of the story: I hear comments on the radio about a borg stuck in a disposals loop outside science so I go check it out. I get there and multiple people inside from it are asking to be let out. The set up is a banana peel in front of the entry, and the bloody hardsuit CE(Mark Singulo) is running around bashing people with a bat into/towards it. I see him push one person into the disposals loop, then start slapping another assistant (Aaron Warren) around. The other assistant has picked up a telebaton and is trying to stun him. I also tried to use the baton against the CE but lost it when the CE hit someone into me with the bat.

The three of us then proceed to run up and down the hall with the assistant trying to stun the CE, me throwing a toolbox to slow him down as I have about low health as can't keep up. The CE continues trying to bat both of us until he loses the fight and falls into crit. Someone had made a guillotine below the showroom, about 10 tiles up from the loop. I put him on it, and after three tries manage to actually activate it on him. A lizard who had been watching everything hangs out and watches me do this and goes to help me activate the blade as I struggle but I figure it out in time. I ask the people in the loop if he was the one pushing them in, and they say yes. It doesn't behead him because it had already killed enough people(I was one of those people) to be dull. Someone else tossed him into the disposals loop and then we get the loop taken apart and I wander off.

Why you think you should be unnoted/the not severity lowered: FROM MY PERSEPECTIVE, the CE is the one with both the tools to create a loop like this, and is the one trying to push people into it. He is actively attacking multiple people who are trying to non harmfully stop him. My "no information" is seeing the CE attacking people. My "no part" is he is putting people into disposals loops, which is an antagonistic action, as well as hitting someone into me and shoving me.

ONTO NOT MY PERSPECTIVE THINGS. The assistant, not the CE was the one who made the loop and was pushing people into it. I showed up too late to see this.

I acted on the best info I had, against someone clearly taking antagonistic actions, and don't think that should be held against me for showing up at the exact wrong time.

Spoiler:

Beheading people and attaching them to a freshly prepared monkey body is currently one of those this is what you hope happens to you things in medbay, because you can remove the body and keep it fresh on the stasis bays. The most reliable way back into the round if you've been dead for more than 10 minutes.

Spoiler:

Those combat logs are filled with 5 million instances of Arm playing with guns in the thunderdome. GROSS
Also Arm I'm coming for appealing your note when that policy discussion on it ends. Anyyyyy day now.

[bigfatbananacyclops]

Mitch Jones hits Mark Singulo in the head with the telescopic baton!, that's the first aggro log in that picture you sent, seeing that they were both fighting each other aggressively, i investigated about what was happening with the others involved before you had arrived.
Aaron built a disposals loop with a banana peel set up as the trap, the CE arrived trying to deconstruct it, Aaron responded by shoving the CE,(this is where they start fighting), others like Kimberly and Mitch arrives. Mitch Jones was batonning Kimberly because they tried to grab him, he thought he was trying to shove him in, Mitch retaliated by trying to push the doctor into disposals so the CE responded Mitch with the bat, then Mitch stunned and bashed the CE (thats when Gene arrived(i believe)). So this entire fight was a clusterfuck, and what i don't understand is why you would arrive, not knowing anything of what had happened, make up your mind that the CE (a head of staff)is the asswipe doing this because you saw him attack others and push someone into the disposals loop, but that is not the case, he wasn't the only one attacking and that picture you posted even shows it. You jump into the fight targeting the CE, with very little information and end up decapitating him because some X said ''yeah he was pushing people'' which i believe is one of the attackers who were fighting him. So you're saying that pushing someone into a disposals loop is an antagonistic action, but they were literally brawling each other, i feel like you had the intention greytide, taking in account that early in the round you were thermiting walls(which you also do many times). For example, if this whole shitfest happened instead with you and X preventing you from thermiting walls and he ends up being killed because Y saw X beating your ass in, would this still be a good thing to do? not having a clear idea of who was in the wrong, and then end up round removing them due to a claim with no evidence.

Out of your perspective, we know there were others trying to push people into disposals, noone there had said who did it or who it was not until the CE got lynched. This cant be really that antagonistic, as it was just one defending himself in the midst of other people battling each other, but you decided to focus him.

Somethings can be very clear like a dude with a esword killing someone infront of you, or three changelings killing people, not this.

[Nabski]

Spoiler:

Mitch Jones hits Mark Singulo in the head with the telescopic baton!, that's the first aggro log in that picture you sent, seeing that they were both fighting each other aggressively, i investigated about what was happening with the others involved before you had arrived.
Aaron built a disposals loop with a banana peel set up as the trap, the CE arrived trying to deconstruct it, Aaron responded by shoving the CE,(this is where they start fighting), others like Kimberly and Mitch arrives. Mitch Jones was batonning Kimberly because they tried to grab him, he thought he was trying to shove him in, Mitch retaliated by trying to push the doctor into disposals so the CE responded Mitch with the bat, then Mitch stunned and bashed the CE (thats when Gene arrived(i believe)).

Useful fight context I missed, but had no way to actively act on because I wasn't there.

So this entire fight was a clusterfuck, and what i don't understand is why you would arrive, not knowing anything of what had happened, make up your mind that the CE (a head of staff)is the asswipe doing this because you saw him attack others and push someone into the disposals loop, but that is not the case, he wasn't the only one attacking and that picture you posted even shows it. You jump into the fight targeting the CE, with very little information

Him being a head of staff does not make him more trustworthy than a random crewmember, unless it's a revolution. For evidence 1 - Motive(aka not revolution and autotrust)- I put forth Kraven, the RD, who was killing people in medbay with an esword that shift.
He was the only one using HARMFUL weapons. Evidence 2 -Means- the attack logs.
Engineers start with access to the tools to make disposal loop. Evidence 3 - Opportunity - Having tools.

and end up decapitating him because some X said ''yeah he was pushing people'' which i believe is one of the attackers who were fighting him.

He was not decapitated, once guillotines have been used enough they have a very low chance to remove the head. This one was in that state and you can tell by inspecting it (which I did) or guessing from the blooded version of the sprite.
I thought it was a person in the disposals that said this, but looking at logs you're right it was one of the people involved in the brawl.

So you're saying that pushing someone into a disposals loop is an antagonistic action, but they were literally brawling each other,

Yes, I'm saying that that pushing someone into custom disposals loops is an antagonistic action. Backing up my claim is this note I have saying not to build disposal loops as a non antag.
One person was brawling with a telebaton, which stuns and does no long term harm. The other was using a bat which knocks people into disposals and was positioning himself to knock the guy into disposals.

i feel like you had the intention greytide, taking in account that early in the round you were thermiting walls(which you also do many times). For example, if this whole shitfest happened instead with you and X preventing you from thermiting walls and he ends up being killed because Y saw X beating your ass in, would this still be a good thing to do? not having a clear idea of who was in the wrong, and then end up round removing them due to a claim with no evidence.

Guessing my intention is questionable and not really relevant to this. Round Recap

Spoiler:

I made a public thermite machine for the crew, and used some bottles to nab the hand teleporter/start the way into the captains office.
I chill in medbay for a while, and watch as there's some fights on the other side of the glass with eswords. There's also holographic carp that someone lured to medbay.
I use the hand teleporter and see where it has been set. It's going to R&D. I go in, then thermite my way out and thermite into the other sections (xeno, nanites, genetics) to see what they are doing. I'm eventually chased out.
I hang out by the guillotine that someone set up, and they toss me on it, killing me. This is funny so I don't resist.
I get revived by medbay.
I hang out in medbay, debating the last name of Acco and trying to help them with their brain damage but I don't want to make more krokodil to help actually deal with their addition. I do make them a mannitol factory so they can keep themselves alive.
I wander out into the halls and get involved in this mess.
I sit around idle for long enough that a borg picks up and I'm riding around on him for about the next 5-10 minutes until the shuttle docks and you bwoink me.
On a greytiding to RP scale, I would rate this like a 2/7

Thermite is fun. It changes up the round, is relatively easy to fix with just some metal, and doesn't leave anyone hurt or dead or stuck out of the round unable to play.
You're bringing up relatively basic escalation policy here.
If I thermited into someone's work area in a way that would inconvenience them then I have wronged them.
That means they can attack and even kill me, but I shouldn't kill them for it.
If a third party "saved" me in the fight and killed X, it would be my responsibility to go return X to the round.

Out of your perspective, we know there were others trying to push people into disposals, noone there had said who did it or who it was not until the CE got lynched. This cant be really that antagonistic, as it was just one defending himself in the midst of other people battling each other, but you decided to focus him.

Somethings can be very clear like a dude with a esword killing someone infront of you, or three changelings killing people, not this.

From my perspective the only one sending people into disposals was the CE. If he was innocent and just trying to escape, he could have continued to retreat away from the disposals towards escape, but instead he went back to it.

This is way too many words for a note.

The CE had the Means Motive and Opportunity, and it was reasonable to think he was the aggressor in the original fight.

[Nabski]

Short version of the above post

CE could have retreated, didn't.
CE had was the only one (originally) using harmful weapons.
CE is the only one to start with the tools to make a loop.
CE didn't get decapitated, just killed in a fancy manner once they were already in deep crit.
Even BUILDING disposal loops as a non antag is a no no, let alone batting people into it.

I was wrong and thought the person who said he had done it was someone in the disposals system, it wasn't, but instead someone else involved in the fight.

Stopping to talk and ask the CE "are you pushing people into disposals" would have just made me person number 7 in the loop.
Walking away would have just let the CE continue to dunk people into the loop.

[bigfatbananacyclops]

I changed my mind about lifting the note. You should know this, anyone can get tools very easily, even if engineers have the tools, anyone can get them easily, maintenance, tool storage, there's a lot of places with toolboxes so this pretty much doesn't justify the suspicion of the CE.

My point about the note is, you were aiming to round remove him through the guillotine (even if it was damaged), and you managed to, you had very little information, he was all bloody and it makes you think this guys an antag, but you weren't even sure yourself and you still went for it, instead of bringing him to the guillotine you could've brought him to security.

[Nabski]

There's only 4 places you can get the Rapid Pipe Dispenser required to make a disposals trap. The CE's office, atmos, engineering, and (the one everyone forgets and it isn't on every map) the auxiliary base. This isn't a simple toolbox you can find everywhere.

Spoiler:

Dropping off a -30 hp bloody CE at sec and saying "he was attacking people in disposals" and not thinking that's a round removal. Thanks for the good laugh. At best they'll leave in where you dropped him at worst shove him in the bad boy morgue. He was better off dead in the hallway outside science where I left him. At least there someone inside who "saw him trying to dismantle it" like you say might take him one department over to medbay.

[Nabski]

I was log diving more because of your security comment.

We had
Officer Bindy, disconnected early on.
Warden Deana, running around with gamer shotgun darts, eventually beheaded 7 minutes before this.
Officer Randomname Hoenshell. Looks like they managed to make it to centcomm and were involved in catching the traitor RD, even if they did murder the clown and become a loot piñata twice.

The more important part of this is that we had
12:31:25 ATTACK RoobToob/(Kimberly Cressman) has dropped the blade on *no key*/(Mark Singulo) with the guillotine non-fatally (NEWHP: -183.7) (151, 104, 2) Central Primary Hallway
12:31:32 ATTACK RoobToob/(Kimberly Cressman) has beheaded *no key*/(Mark Singulo) with the guillotine (NEWHP: -233.7) (151, 104, 2) big gay boy zone

Spoiler:

They beheaded two other people as well.

If that name rings a bell it's because they were involved in the fight right as I got there, and I think was person that Mark hit into the disposals loop.
This at least explains why you said three times that I beheaded him and I kept saying I didn't.

[trexter555]

There's only 4 places you can get the Rapid Pipe Dispenser required to make a disposals trap. The CE's office, atmos, engineering, and (the one everyone forgets and it isn't on every map) the auxiliary base. This isn't a simple toolbox you can find everywhere.

Spoiler:

Dropping off a -30 hp bloody CE at sec and saying "he was attacking people in disposals" and not thinking that's a round removal. Thanks for the good laugh. At best they'll leave in where you dropped him at worst shove him in the bad boy morgue. He was better off dead in the hallway outside science where I left him. At least there someone inside who "saw him trying to dismantle it" like you say might take him one department over to medbay.

dont forget toxins

[Vekter]

There's only 4 places you can get the Rapid Pipe Dispenser required to make a disposals trap. The CE's office, atmos, engineering, and (the one everyone forgets and it isn't on every map) the auxiliary base. This isn't a simple toolbox you can find everywhere.

Spoiler:

Dropping off a -30 hp bloody CE at sec and saying "he was attacking people in disposals" and not thinking that's a round removal. Thanks for the good laugh. At best they'll leave in where you dropped him at worst shove him in the bad boy morgue. He was better off dead in the hallway outside science where I left him. At least there someone inside who "saw him trying to dismantle it" like you say might take him one department over to medbay.

dont forget toxins

They can also be printed from Cargo's techfab IIRC.

[Nabski]

Oh I forgot toxins, that's a newer one to me.
I just looked in the autolathe in cargo and didn't see it there.
Didn't see it in the cargo lathe either, but that might be tech locked.

[Fishimun]

There's only 4 places you can get the Rapid Pipe Dispenser required to make a disposals trap. The CE's office, atmos, engineering, and (the one everyone forgets and it isn't on every map) the auxiliary base. This isn't a simple toolbox you can find everywhere.

Spoiler:

Dropping off a -30 hp bloody CE at sec and saying "he was attacking people in disposals" and not thinking that's a round removal. Thanks for the good laugh. At best they'll leave in where you dropped him at worst shove him in the bad boy morgue. He was better off dead in the hallway outside science where I left him. At least there someone inside who "saw him trying to dismantle it" like you say might take him one department over to medbay.

dont forget toxins

They can also be printed from Cargo's techfab IIRC.

You mean hacked cargo auto lathe.

[Domitius]

I want to start off by acknowledging that this situation is, by all accounts, a clusterfuck.

Nabski entered a situation where they made a calculated guess based on the information they had on who the aggressor was and ended up being wrong. Bigfatbananacyclops realized the clusterfuck scenario and decided this situation is one of note which didn't warrant a ban. The note itself has the intention of supporting proper investigation for Nabski in sketchy scenarios like this and I believe does a good job.

Given the discussion you two have had though I am going to lower the severity of the note to low as I believe Nabski realizes what has gone wrong. This situation is of significance though so simply removing it would be a disservice to admins should Nabski ignore any attempt at investigation in the future in similar scenarios.

Upheld and lowered Severity to "low".