[CoffeeDragon16] SinfulBliss - Dayban for tiding

[sinfulbliss]

BYOND account: SinfulBliss

Character name: Axle Brady

Ban type: Server

Ban length: 1 day

Ban reason/Time:

Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil

Round ID in which ban was placed: Not included (Ban #54161)

Your side of the story: After the assistant removal PR, lots of people in Sybil went assistant and tided. The first round I got antag. The second round, I found a fellow greyshirt and asked if he wanted to get stuff from a sec locker. He countered that we should raid the armory from space. I thought, fuck it let's go for it. I have seen the armory raided a trillion times as sec by nonantags, and I am pretty damn sure it is not against the rules to make an attempt at breaking into the armory as nonantag. Obviously sec showed up, so I nonharmfully stunned them waiting for the thermite to burn through the walls. Once the officer was stamcritted, the guy I was with decided to chuck them into space with no warning. It was entirely his decision and I most certainly was not in the loop that he wanted to murder. The only time I even *approached* harm was when the secoff chucked a spear into me, and I pulled it out and threw it back (it missed).

It is completely ridiculous to say I "spaced sec" when I didn't space sec. It's just patently false. I am also pretty sure throwing a spear near an officer isn't a crime. If I wanted to kill him I would have just diced him up with the spear when he was stamcritted, but I didn't. I chucked the spear just to zone him away from the area.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The only concrete things I did were 1) hit an officer with a telebaton/stunbaton, and 2) throw thermite on the walls of the armory (didn't work anyway). The admin here claimed that I am basically responsible for anything that happens after I stamcrit someone. I was not OK with the officer being spaced and this note is completely disingenuous. I can list an innumerable number of times I was stamcritted by one person, then murdered by another. I wouldn't expect the guy who stamcritted me to take the fall for the murder -- his intention was to stamcrit me, not to murder me.

Please watch the clip attached. It starts when we began the armory raid and ends when I get bwoinked. It's just 5 minutes long.



Watching it over the only thing I regret doing is continuing after the guy spaced the officer. It made it look like I was complicit. I didn't really know what to do when he spaced him -- I assumed he was an antag, because otherwise I knew he just did something banworthy.

[CoffeeDragon16]

I appreciate the video, this helps a lot and will save me a lot of time log diving. With review from the video, this paints a much clearer picture than the logs provided. I was under the wrongful assumption you simply watched it happen. I'll remove the sentence about helping kill the officer. Aside from that, my point stands. For one, you have a note about tiding.
'Warned - Tiding Agreed to ease up on tiding by robusting the captain, was understanding and honest in ahelps.'
As to spacing sec, you used thermite on their walls from space. That is spacing sec, you were exposing sec to space because you wanted guns as a non-antag. I will not entertain the idea that you did not space sec or assault the officer in the hardsuit. Thrown spears can embed, wound, and bleed one out in moments. You saw your buddy kill a sec officer in cold blood, said 'ALRIGHT' and went on as usual. You did not ahelp, you did not attempt to stop them. If you believed they were an antagonist, you would and should have done something about them killing officers and stealing guns. You were self antagging, with a prior history of it. I will edit the ban to not include the sentence about killing the officer, but aside from that I see nothing worth amending.

[sinfulbliss]

I read "spaced sec" as "spaced a sec officer."

By the time I saw him throw the seccie into space, I couldn't really do anything. You can see in the clip that I didn't really see anything except a flying body into space. I had no chance to attempt to stop him. And even if I did -- are assistants obligated to try to stop antagonists?

If you believed they were an antagonist, you would and should have done something about them killing officers and stealing guns.

Is this policy? I am fairly certain that, unless you're a security officer, you're not obligated to fight antagonists. Hell, even as sec I'm pretty sure you're not obligated to stop valids -- I see seccies passively allow them to do what they're doing all the time. I was assisting him breaking into the armory for a gun. That's it. If that's self-antagging, and worthy of a 1-day ban, then live and learn I guess. I want to confirm for the future, though -- is breaking into the armory a bannable offense? If so I should have been ahelping that ages ago, because it happens all the time.

Thrown spears can embed, wound, and bleed one out in moments.

Right, but it didn't. It seems strange to include a missed attack in a ban note, and the way it reads sounds like the spear actually connected with him. More accurate would be "tried to throw a spear at an officer." That sounds kind of ridiculous in a note, but that's what happened.

Is it possible the dayban be applied only to assistant in light of the fact that I didn't actually help murder the guy?

[CoffeeDragon16]

No, you are not obligated to try and stop them. However, continuing to work with them to arm them is in poor taste, and is directly assisting them, especially attacking officers that are trying to arrest them. And, as to the second, you attempted to and meant to attack them with a spear, which is the same to me as if you hit it in my eyes. The only difference is chance. I'll ask headmins for second thought, but I see no reason to change the ban beyond what I have already.

I read "spaced sec" as "spaced a sec officer."

I mean the location, as in you spaced the security department.

[sinfulbliss]

A second opinion would be helpful, if for no other reason than knowing whether breaking into the armory is bannable. I know you can execute for it on the spot but being able to ahelp it is news to me.

[CoffeeDragon16]

The current standing policy and precedent on breaking into armory is similar to that of tiding. It's fine once in a while, and will get you killed. However, when done excessively it can be bannable, yes.

Rule 1 Precedents 4 and 5
Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

[sinfulbliss]

The current standing policy and precedent on breaking into armory is similar to that of tiding. It's fine once in a while, and will get you killed. However, when done excessively it can be bannable, yes.

I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I have broken into armory as nonantag without implicit sec approval (i.e., nukies, xenos, etc).

The thing that doesn't sit right with me with this ban is that it was originally made under the impression that I "helped kill an officer," but then after agreeing that's not what I did, the ban length is not changed at all. I can't help but think that if the guy with me didn't murder the seccie, I would never have gotten banned. I feel like this ban was switched from "helped kill seccie" to "excessive tiding," which IMO is on a completely different level and doesn't deserve the same severity.

[Coconutwarrior97]

I'll go ahead and give my personal opinion on this.

As coffee mentioned, greytiding is explicitly mentioned in Rule 1 Precedents,

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Typically we allow a small amount of it since the conflict it creates can be fun for the round, but you can be noted for it if an administrator feels its toeing the line.
I wouldn't say breaking into the armory alone is a bannable offense, but its definitely pushing things as far as tiding goes and probably worth a note. However if you've been noted for tiding recently, then I would not hesitate to ban for it. Which seems to be the case here.

Basically, tiding is ok in small amounts but its an absolute pain for heads of staff or security and the crew in general to deal with constantly. So thats why we don't like to see an individual player do it too much and tend to take administrative action in regards to it.

Raiding the armory for no good reason while having a previous note for tiding means a justifiable ban in my view.

[sinfulbliss]

That's fair. I would only like to mention that my previous note for tiding was roughly 70-80 rounds ago (maybe more, can't check note history). I would not consider once in 70 rounds excessive. Perhaps the date alone is misleading.

[sinfulbliss]

I just checked and the last note I had for tiding before this was 110+ rounds ago. That is definitely not excessive, but the ban is over now anyway so whatever.