/tg/Station 13

BYOND account: MentalDecayed
Character name: Sammael Macdougal / The Senate
Ban type: Note
Ban reason: Warned - Got killed by a human traitor and the traitor then borged them, they immediately told the crew who killed them thus causing harm to the human traitor who was killed shortly after this exchange. I told them to be more careful of their laws in the future and how their actions might result in human harm.
Time ban was placed: 2021-05-04 16:49:17
Server you were playing on when banned:Sybil
Your side of the story: It has never in my life occurred to me that reporting a traitor would not at the very least curb human harm. even as a borg. Mindstormy mentioned i had a similar ban recently, but it's only similiar because it involves a borg. but that was about metagrudging as a ghost role. This is not. If I actively retain my human memories and can identify a traitor to the crew, it will invariably prevent some form of future human harm because of that knowledge. What they do with it is not up to me. This is very akin to surgery to harm the skin to remove the tumor, in the very least non lethally.
The person who ahelped about it, and i know it was them because they were ock icking about it during that round to mai emmershon, that borgs aren't supposed to have memories and be able to report traitors AND HE GOT TALKED DOWN. There isn't a reason i should have this note as it prevented any more uneccesary deaths and harm caused by the TOT who ahelped in the first place, especially after he shot and killed a non target.
by the way, the traitor survived the round. it's in the end round notes.
Why you think you should be unbanned: This seems incredibly unfair seeing as i've seen other players do this plenty of times and have zero repercussions if this is an actual new hard rule: that you can't report traitors as a borg.

Anything else we should know: This is the only time i've ever seen someone ahelp for someone saying that they are a traitor. especially since my laws weren't emagged or off the asimov

Worth noting here that, assuming you were Asimov, your laws don't specify anything about sacrificing lives to reduce harm. Any human harm is disallowed and it's a very fair assumption that if you report a traitor to security, they're going to execute them. Common knowledge that "being a traitor" leads to "they're dead/harmed".

Vekter wrote:Worth noting here that, assuming you were Asimov, your laws don't specify anything about sacrificing lives to reduce harm. Any human harm is disallowed and it's a very fair assumption that if you report a traitor to security, they're going to execute them. Common knowledge that "being a traitor" leads to "they're dead/harmed".

I feel the spirit of the following headmin ruling is important too:

Potential Law One Violations: "Prioritizing "potential future law violations" is a fucking terrible idea, since it makes silicons able to handwave basically any law two request with "yeah but if i let you in there you might potentially attack somebody inside, law 1 violation!!!""

Source: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings
Thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 63#p304371

My take is that the spirit of this ruling restricts the scope in which Law 1 may be relied upon to not perform a given action. Almost any action could lead to human harm if you're creative enough with your reasoning. The question of whether telling the crew about your killer would on a balance of probabilities lead to harm is a discussion to be had within the context of the shift as a whole. However, I would not personally feel comfortable blankly ruling that a silicon reporting on the activities of an Asimov-protected person who was acting as if they were an antagonist must be assumed to lead to human harm and as a result they must never do it otherwise they will get noted.

This is not a commentary or suggestion on the appeal, the merits of the appeal itself or the merits of the note.

As always, any potential rule breaks should be considered within the context of the shift and the events of the shift as a whole. I have no context for that and I merely wanted to put a point on record that is of relevance to this appeal.

It's been a policy for a while that those who are force borged by security aren't allowed to fuck with security afterwards. Not sure if that applies to traitors or not since it's a slightly different situation, but same principle.

Timberpoes wrote:

Vekter wrote:Worth noting here that, assuming you were Asimov, your laws don't specify anything about sacrificing lives to reduce harm. Any human harm is disallowed and it's a very fair assumption that if you report a traitor to security, they're going to execute them. Common knowledge that "being a traitor" leads to "they're dead/harmed".

I feel the spirit of the following headmin ruling is important too:

Potential Law One Violations: "Prioritizing "potential future law violations" is a fucking terrible idea, since it makes silicons able to handwave basically any law two request with "yeah but if i let you in there you might potentially attack somebody inside, law 1 violation!!!""

Source: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings
Thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 63#p304371

My take is that the spirit of this ruling restricts the scope in which Law 1 may be relied upon to not perform a given action. Almost any action could lead to human harm if you're creative enough with your reasoning. The question of whether telling the crew about your killer would on a balance of probabilities lead to harm is a discussion to be had within the context of the shift as a whole. However, I would not personally feel comfortable blankly ruling that a silicon reporting on the activities of an Asimov-protected person who was acting as if they were an antagonist must be assumed to lead to human harm and as a result they must never do it otherwise they will get noted.

This is not a commentary or suggestion on the appeal, the merits of the appeal itself or the merits of the note.

As always, any potential rule breaks should be considered within the context of the shift and the events of the shift as a whole. I have no context for that and I merely wanted to put a point on record that is of relevance to this appeal.

Hello, this is the former headmin who made the ruling in question: You are correct, this ban reason is incorrect. Vekter's post in this thread is only bannable if the silicon has immediate reason to believe security will kill the traitor in question (IE they've stated their intent by saying "I will kill that traitor when I find him," have killed caught traitors openly in front of the AI before in the current round, or anything to that effect).

BeeSting12 might be correct, but I don't know where I can find that policy in writing.

peanut thread found some info(Might be worth checking)

So first off, if I remember correctly no one ahelped this. I messaged you as soon as I saw this happen because I thought it was kind of a lame move to do. As soon as you got borged you ran off to medical to find the valid hunters and told them who and how you got killed. This action resulted in the immediate hunting of said human traitor thus resulting in their harm which seems like a pretty clear violation of asimov laws.

Had you gone to a security officer I would have not noted you as you can assume security will attempt non-harmful methods of capturing a traitor. But you went to medical looking for someone and found a fairly robust medical doctor (MatildaHatchKey/(Mai Emershon)) and an assistant with a spear in hand (SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady)). In that instance telling them repeatedly (3 times by the logs) who and how you were killed can be considered to result in human harm.

It was also a fairly low pop round which factored into my decision because if you have less than 20 players running around, people will notice it more often when you yell things over comms.

Here are the instances of you saying who and how you were killed

[2021-05-04 16:39:08.392] SAY: MentalDecayed/(The Senate) "eric greenwood killed me with a 9mm then borged me" (Cargo Office (165,133,3))
[2021-05-04 16:39:08.392] SAY: MentalDecayed/(The Senate) (binary) "Eric greenwood killed me with a 9mm then borged me" (Cargo Office (165,133,3))
[2021-05-04 16:39:43.463] SAY: MentalDecayed/(The Senate) "eric greenwood killed me with a 9mm pistol" (Medbay Central (124,91,3))

You then proceeded to take everyone with you to robotics to find the traitor

[2021-05-04 16:40:42.173] ATTACK: MentalDecayed/(The Senate) is now being ridden by Mai Emershon (Medbay Central (126,90,3))
[2021-05-04 16:40:32.689] ATTACK: MentalDecayed/(The Senate) has grabbed SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) passive grab (NEWHP: 87) (Medbay Central (125,90,3))

And after a 3 minute or so brawl between all of you, the assistant kills the human traitor. It was a long and sloppy fight with lots of thrown spears and missed gun shots so I will only post the log for when their HP went below zero.

[2021-05-04 16:43:19.760] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has kicked Thislooksbad/(Eric Greenwood) (NEWHP: -6.6) (Starboard Tram Dock (167,115,3))

In summation, I stand by my note. Please be aware of your actions in regards to your asimov laws in the future.