[FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Listick · Post by **Listick** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:51 am #601986

BYOND account: Listick

Character name: Augustus Lascaris I

Ban type: Server, security roles ban

Ban length: 1 day on the server, 2 weeks for security roles

Ban reason: Killed a doctor trying to revive a dead body in the brig, fairly chaotic round with a lot of going on, but as HOS, you lethaled everyone you had any valid arrest on, you are expected to use non lethal force in the first instance before becoming judge dredd

Time ban was placed: 2021-06-04 20:38:50

Server you were playing on when banned: Terry

Round ID in which ban was placed: 163498

Your side of the story: *There are two different doctors: one which I killed in brig and another one who was being revived by this doctor in the brig. I will be referring to them as doctor1 and doctor 2. The reason of me being banned is killing doctor2 but it's crucial to know who was doctor1 to understand why I killed doctor2.
Security was heavily bombed with lemons by two unknown guys. We got them but I also ordered to search the botanist to see if they were invlovled. The botanist refused to come with us and we had to chase him through the botany and maints. When we caught him I saw doctor1 there who naturally doesn't have access to botany maints. I asked him what he was doing there and he replied: "I just got there" (later in chat he said he came there with us secs but he either lies or I didn't see him going with us because we were chasing th botanist in maints) which I didn't consider as explanation nor could trust him so I asked him to come with us. He refused, shoved me and tried to run away but the officer stunned him. The officer and detective who were there with me said they didn't have a second pair of cuffs and doctor1 kept resisting. That's why I conducted that it'd be safer to use lethal on them as we had no effective non lethals and he could have had bomb lemons from the botany. We carried doctor1 and the botanist to prison so their potentially dangerous stuff won't be robbed by others. I ordered warden and secoffs to search the botanist and warden found the explosive lemons with them so I ordered to gib the botanist to prevent him from being revived by his teammates. I wanted to call another doctor to be near and revive doctor1 if I wouldn't find illegal stuff with them but I couldn't do this because coms were disabled. When I was about to search doctor1 who died by the time we got to prison, malf ai started shutting lockers, making oxygen deprivation and pressure(kpa) by which I was damaged to yellow health. I don't remember exactly if shuttle arrived at this moment or a bit later.
Then suddenly the officer went to space and from there brought a ling who before transformed a lot of the crew into aliens. We gibbed the ling an then the officer went to the arrivals. I decided it would be best to recharge my guns first and went to the sec gear room to do so. And when I came I saw a human dressed as a doctor(who later appeared to be doctor2) carrying out the dead doctor1 from the prison! I have no idea how they got there all of a sudden but including that: 1) brig is a closed area and the chances of a real doctor getting there so quietly are extremely low 2) they were carrying out of prison a doctor1 who I heavily suspected of being *in a team* with the guys who bombed sec 3) they didn't ask nor notified me of their visit 4) I was alone with no one else around 5) We had no time to search the doctor1 so doctor2 could have stolen something like a bomb from their inventory 6) I was already heavily damaged 7) the distance between us was enough to shoot me down if I ran to them with the baton even if I would be at full health 8) I had no ways of keeping them disarmed as I had no cuffs at the moment, I decided to shoot doctor2 with lethal to death. Then I put their body on a prisoner shuttle and sent it instead of gibbing their body. So in case doctor2 was ling and would revive themselves I would have more time to search doctor1 and then doctor2 separately and bring them to doctor if they would appear to be innocent. After this I went outside to see if there were other secs who could help with all this but met detective who said that the shuttle is wrecked and we should quickly use the escape pod. Seeing how there was no time to search even one of the two dead doctors I went with detective to the escape pod.

Why you think you should be unbanned: While I respect the doctor's desire to revive a dead body the doctor shouldn't silently sneak in or break into brig and carry out a deaf body from a prison. And while we had a clear misunderstanding with doctor2 I want to say that the risk of them being an antagonist was too high to risk my life and possibly the lives of others. I didn't "sentence them like a judge" as ban description implies, I simply looked at their actions and calculated the risks of them being an antagonist and how they could have harmed the station. I couldn't have effectively used non lethal against doctor2 because of the reasons 1) - 8) I explained above and to my surprise didn't have enough time to search doctor2. That's why I think my ban is unfair, I did everything I could to protect the station and do my job. And even though doctor2 wasn't an antagonist I had reasons 1) - 8) to think that they were.
And I believe admin's decision was rushed because I failed to respond to them early and they had to delay the end of the round and put my dead character into prison to question there. The reason I didn't respond to them before is because I have a separate channel for admin pms. But since I cleared the cache this channel was deleted. I'm not sure if the admin pms were disabled in my General chat or if I simply didn't see them because the round at the end was very chaotic.

References of good conduct: I mainly play as a detective on Terry

Anything else we should know: A few weeks ago another admin messaged me and said that the new name I made doesn't fit in game rules(it clearly referenced a character from another media). So I changed the name on the next round.
And the original ban description doesn't include security jobban for 2 weeks but that's what admin mentioned before banning me.

Post by **iain0** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:40 pm #601990

Just the other side of the coin for comparison, I'd be "Doctor 2" (Bob Stange), and doctor 1 (Michaela) is someone I MD with a lot. Enough that I actually check them explicitly on suit sensors when I check the monitoring console. She'd been in brig for a while with burns before disappearing off sensors there entirely, which is what prompted me to go up there.

Of note is the lack of comms and also that the shuttle had arrived by the time I got to security, walked past a few people abandoning the security department (and leaving the revivable corpse behind...). Front doors to security were wide open (damaged I think, but maybe I got a lucky tailgate, was the "opposing doors" open to break the usual way those doors close each other) and I walked in. Not a person in sight. No comms. And about 5 minutes until round end (pre-departure for shuttle + transit to centcomm). It's kinda pointless me even trying to revive this person, but this is how I play, and if I can get them fixed before the shift ends I feel i've done "good".

Security is empty and doctor 1's corpse is abandoned in the 3rd cell, so I break it out, no-one to ask to help (which is what I'd normally do), no time either, and I hadn't even got as far as medscanning the person when the HOS turns up stage right and immediately opens fire without even a word, not a request to stop, nothing. I didn't even move. I said "What?" which might have come out after I was in crit, but I literally took zero action in the entire time I was being shot, half hoping he was just softening me up to make me slow and would then investigate (one option for you in future...), but instead put me straight into crit, didn't stop there, and just executed me without me taking any action in his presence or any word from them, quite a cold blooded execution really. For some reason they then dumped me on the gulag shuttle (4 minutes left in shift?).

It's a bit meta to argue about how little I could achieve in 5 minutes, but reviving the corpse alone would take most of that, not sure what "great threat" either me or the other doctor could have posed after that point (shuttle departure in 2 minutes)

For me, it was mostly that you didn't even try anything - interaction, stunning, detaining, wounding, or react to me not reacting, or anything, you went instantly to just deathmatch style execution.

In fact, neither doctor was a traitor or antag, both executed.

Edit: Also you're security, everyone you arrest could be argued to pose a threat towards you (hopefully more antags than this story), so using this as a reason to lethal is really just paving an excuse to always lethal, but i intentionally did absolutely nothing so there was no argument I did anything threatening, you just assumed I was a threat, but you would assume that of anyone you want to arrest, so you seem to have narrowed the security perspective to being quite lethal friendly, which is not meant to be the go-to solution.

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:04 pm #601991

Alright, for reference sake

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 8/game.txt

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nifest.txt

The main issue I had with this, which I tried to explain to you, was that you killed people because you didn't have any effective non-lethals, but then you killed people and dumped the bodies rather than critting them, getting some cuffs, and healing (although I do believe the first player you lethalled succumbed so that was not an option)

There's a lot to go through so I'll go through the logs step by step

Spoiler:

Alright, so from what I found in the logs, doesn't match up with what you are telling me, you are saying 2 people bombed the brig, yet I can only find one person throwing combustable lemons around, and he was executed for it (fair enough)

You arrest the botanist and search him, and you say you ordered him gibbed? I didn't see if in the logs this is actually the case but either way, I'm not sure how much I believe this is a good move

You go for the first doctor (Michaela) for being in botany maint and resisting arrest, I can understand that but you jumped to lethals because you had no effective non-lethal? You, as HOS, have a fancy gun which can switch between multiple modes including disabler mode, and you said "he could have had bomb lemons from botany", I mean, I can half understand that reasoning but jumping to lethals because a guy is in botany maint and resists arrest is a bit far if you ask me

Anyway, doctor 1 (Michaela) , you say you were going to call another doctor to be near and revive him if you didn't find illegal stuff, but coms were disabled, however then a few minutes later a doctor (Bob) does appear, you wordlessly gun him down for being in the brig claiming that he "could" have been an antagonist

The main issue I have with all of this, is the killing of Bob, I did explain this to you, the killing of Michaela I can somewhat understand to a point, and the gibbing of Izaiah, I'm not sure, but that isn't why I banned you

Bob was merely a doctor, who in the confusion of everything, saw a body in the brig and tried to revive it, you made no effort to explain to him why he shouldn't, and from what I recall from our conversation yesterday, you had said "only an antag can sneak into the brig"

This is a paranoia driven game, played often where you are dealing with a lack of information and/or communication, however, if you gun people down for the mildest of crimes (although I can understand the chaotic situation of this round) and assume they're a changeling with no evidence, this is going to be the consequence

Security part of the rules:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

I can see no reason to reduce this or lift it so this appeal is denied unless the headmins want to overturn it

Listick · Post by **Listick** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:15 pm #602001

Fatal wrote:Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

Exactly, but the problem with Bob is that "kill -> search -> revive if not antag" was the only reliable way in this situation for the reasons I explained above.
And the reason why I told the story about Michael is so you'd understand who Bob tried to revive. If Michael was outside of brig restricted area when Bob tried to revive him there(doctors don't have all-access for a reason) or if Michael wasn't suspected of being in a team with sec bombers I would not have shot Bob. But the combination of these two factors gave like 80% chance of Bob being an antag and I couldn't take such risk as I would 100% die to antag had I not used "kill -> search -> revive if not antag" tactic.

Listick · Post by **Listick** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:22 pm #602004

And moreover, if you still don't agree with what I've said above and what decisions I made in this situation the ban on all security roles makes no sense. As HoS is the only security role which has the right to determine if a certain person should be lethaled. And server ban for 24 hours just looks random as it doesn't strictly relate to the problem.

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:27 pm #602008

Okay, I'll try and explain better what the issue here was and why it was unacceptable so we don't get any repeats

Firstly, you killed and gibbed a botanist for making combustible lemons, I'm not sure this was appropriate, but this wasn't what I banned you for so I won't go into in that much detail (botanist never used said lemons)

You killed a doctor who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, tried to resist and arrest, and tried to drag the botanist away (and was stopped so killing them was a bit much), you also made no effort to revive Michaela

You then killed a doctor attempting to revive Michaela, there was no indication that Bob was an antagonist, and, given that he appeared unarmed, you should have used non-lethal methods to deal with Bob, and given that you did shoot him, you should have made an effort to revive him (given that he wasn't an antagonist, never attacked you, and had nothing on him to indicate he was a threat)

As for the ban times, the dayban was for killing Bob and the security ban (generally jobbans are a blanket ban across a department) was for generally poor security play falling short of what we expect

You keep also repeating "sec bombers", there was one assistant who bombed security and a botanist who made the lemons, there was no "team" and nobody involved in this were antagonists (although the assistant was certainly a valid execution)

I'll repeat this also

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

What this means is, unless you have reasonable grounds that lethal force is necessary, non-lethal force is EXPECTED, and the second paragraph explains that you should err on the side of caution, and you are expected to have non-lethal options available (as HOS you are equipped with a flash, pepper spray, baton, flashbangs, multiphase gun with disabler setting, and handcuffs), not being equipped for non-lethal in this situation is not an excuse given your available equipment

Just because changelings are about that doesn't mean everyone who is in the wrong place is a changeling and assuming Bob is one with no evidence other than "he was in the brig" was not an acceptable use of deadly force

I hope I have cleared up the issue with your security conduct here

Listick · Post by **Listick** » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:51 am #602921

Fatal wrote:I hope I have cleared up the issue with your security conduct here

Sorry for the late reply, it was a busy week for me. I understand that I shouldn't have killed the doctor when I could have used non-lethal method even though it would be much less effective. I've just tried to explain the situation from my side to show that I'm not a shitter who kills random people for no reason at all, even though the reason here was mainly chaos on the station and my paranoia about how antag can kill unprepared person in a matter of seconds.

Anyways, I guess I didn't clear it, but the initial goal of my appeal was to discuss the penalty about security role ban. I don't play HoS much as I'm not very interested in this role compared to detective or warden(if detective isn't available). And since HoS is the only security role that can decide whether or not to execute someone the situation like the one with doctor Bob would not be possible if I played as detective, warden or even secof. Therefore I think it would be logical and fair to change my job penalty to HoS only and unlock other security roles.

Post by **Fatal** » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:08 pm #602931

I'm not sure where you are getting this "HOS being the only one to authorise executions thing from", unless you are reading space law (which is not admin enforceable and more of an IC roleplay suggestion, and that specifically mentions only the CAPTAIN can authorise executions anyway) so I'm not inclined to remove the security bans from this because it's a failure of security conduct, not a breach of HOS conduct

Listick · Post by **Listick** » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:06 pm #602937

Fatal wrote:I'm not sure where you are getting this "HOS being the only one to authorise executions thing from", unless you are reading space law (which is not admin enforceable and more of an IC roleplay suggestion, and that specifically mentions only the CAPTAIN can authorise executions anyway)

Excuse me, but you are implying that security officer and detective are allowed to just kill anyone which definitely isn't right. Even if they have to kill someone they must report to their command(HoS/Captain) and follow their orders from there.

You are either trolling me or I don't even know. I guess I have to request for a different admin to analyze this situation from the beggining. Sadly there are no guides on this so I'd be glad if you provide me with the information on how I can make such request.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:37 pm #602940

The OOC policy is, and has been for some time, that antags are fair game for anyone who doesn't metagame their antag status.

Post by **Fatal** » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:38 pm #602943

Listick wrote:
Fatal wrote:I'm not sure where you are getting this "HOS being the only one to authorise executions thing from", unless you are reading space law (which is not admin enforceable and more of an IC roleplay suggestion, and that specifically mentions only the CAPTAIN can authorise executions anyway)
Excuse me, but you are implying that security officer and detective are allowed to just kill anyone which definitely isn't right. Even if they have to kill someone they must report to their command(HoS/Captain) and follow their orders from there.

You are either trolling me or I don't even know. I guess I have to request for a different admin to analyze this situation from the beggining. Sadly there are no guides on this so I'd be glad if you provide me with the information on how I can make such request.

Again, not sure where you are getting this information from regarding reporting to the HOS / Captain

Here is security policy:

Security Policy & Precedents

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Security are not exceptions to the rule where non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists.
The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. However, security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes, especially important department-specific items like hard suits. Obvious exceptions to this are things like radio headsets, if players use it to harass security over the radio while being arrested.

Don’t kill Asimov borgs for trying to stop harm, unless they are being excessively disruptive, for example, locking down all of security despite only one security staff member causing harm.
While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armory, is in the armory, or is leaving it

Whilst I'm clearly not saying security can kill anyone they like, just as the Captain and HOS cannot kill anyone they like, if someone is valid to be killed by security at all, it doesn't matter who does it or who authorises it, from an administrative standpoint, as long as you can actually justify the reason for it to us

I hope this clears things up

I'll just add this in as well from rule 4

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

/tg/Station 13

[FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

[FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

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Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

Re: [FatalX1] Listick - server ban, sec jobban

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