[Wubli] Legoscape - Admin False Presumption Of Intention

[legoscape]

BYOND account: Legoscape
Character name: Jessica Sulivard
Ban type: Note
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 164373
Ban reason: After arguing with the CE over the SM setup, asked one of the wizards at least three times to "remove the CE". This was not acted upon by the wizard, but asking an antagonist whose entire gimmick is (usually) to harm humans to remove someone does not sit well for an ASIMOV lawset. No matter how many times I tried to explain this in ahelps, they refused to understand. Please be more careful when playing silicon. Advised to appeal in the forums if they truly think I am incorrect.
Your side of the story:
During the beginning of the shift, I began as B.E.A.N, C02 Engine Maker Exdroinare. 10~ Minutes into the shift. I hook up the line of C02 to the Fuel line to produce a pressure C02 Engine, I build a robust cooling system, and an Atmos tech turns on the emitters without the cooling system finished, SM delams to 70% And drops quickly. CE comes into the engine room and actively attempts to mess with pipes when I begin pumping c02 coolant into the SM. I call security to ask to remove the CE from engineering "he's sabotaging the engine," I shout over comms. After rustling with the CE, He threatens to kill me and tells me "you don't understand atmos". (As he empties the damn SM of c02 coolant like what?). I leave engineering to look for security as I see two wizards running around doing fireballs and stuff. With almost everyone nuggets or dead on the floor, I ask one of the only humans left alive on board; I ask the wizard to "remove the ce" because this wizard spoke to me and seemed kinda friendly despite the fact of human harm.
Why do you think you should be unbanned?:
For the record, The admin that had added this note left out the parts of me actively looking for security or even calling security to remove the Cheif engineer from engineering. "Remove the CE" is a very ambiguous quote that can be left subjective. However, In this case, I was attempting to remove a dangerous unknowledgeable Chief Engineer from blowing up a quarter of the station. The noting admin admitted to seeing my attempts to remove the Chief Engineer from engineering by calling security but left that portion out of the note, essentially ignoring them in my arugement.

Under Silicon law, Wizards are considered humans. Antagonist or not, space law has no merit in silicon law. Cyborgs are supposed to protect humans regardless of Antagonist status. This means protecting syndicates from the crew and the wizards from the crew. When I asked the nicer of the two wizards to "Remove the CE" My intentions remained pure. I believed I could talk this wizard and non-harmfully remove the chief engineer from engineering. When I asked a wizard to remove the Chief Engineer, I attempted to prevent station damage and human harm. However, What I asked was never acted upon. I had broken Zero laws, Zero rules.

Admins, Should not set their own standards for notes. Admins should not be able to presume intention and note on based presumption. To my knowledge, notes should be based on fact, And leave nothing ambiguous or purposely leave out factual information that could explain intention to actions. This note is factually and materially incorrect. Vital information was left out of this note. This note is also very harsh and misleading; No rules were broken. No silicon laws were broken, No humans were directly harmed. In my opinion, this note has zero merit, and I am asking for permanent removal of it.

[MortoSasye]

Put the admin name in the title, please.

[wubli]

Hello.
This is all the say logs (found here) you had at the moment I ahelped you. Note that they are in descending order because I'm too tired to fix it:

Spoiler:

[00:12:17] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (125,115,2)) (Event #99)
"Bean has detected a large amount of death."
[00:08:36] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,126,2)) (Event #98)
"Bean reccomends calling shuttle"
[00:07:26] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Medbay Treatment Center (87,102,2)) (Event #97)
"Wizards stop harming people"
[00:07:17] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Medbay Central (96,105,2)) (Event #96)
"Stop harming wizards."
[00:07:14] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Medbay Central (96,105,2)) (Event #95)
"Wizards"
[00:06:36] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (119,143,2)) (Event #94)
"Medical."
[00:04:44] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Captain's Quarters (119,129,2)) (Event #93)
(priority announcement) "Bean is sad, Ce has lack of brain matter, Wizards are being wizards. Bean is alone in bean's mind."
[00:04:04] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (125,133,2)) (Event #92)
"come on"
[00:04:03] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (125,133,2)) (Event #91)
".."
[00:03:59] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (125,132,2)) (Event #90)
"bean requ..."
[00:03:39] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Starboard Primary Hallway (148,138,2)) (Event #89)
"..."
[00:03:37] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Engineering Foyer (160,138,2)) (Event #88)
"does wizard"
[00:03:24] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Engineering Foyer (160,138,2)) (Event #87)
"Bean cannot stop you"
[00:03:20] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Engineering Foyer (159,139,2)) (Event #86)
"please no harm"
[00:03:11] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Engineering Foyer (160,137,2)) (Event #85)
"WIZARD!!"
[00:02:59] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #84)
"YOU DON'T WANT IT EQUALIZED."
[00:02:55] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #83)
"WHY?"
[00:02:51] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #82)
"THIS IS LITTERALLY"
[00:02:44] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #81)
"NO"
[00:02:35] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #80)
"IT IS"
[00:02:29] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #79)
"GOES RIGHT PAST"
[00:02:27] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #78)
"THIS PIPE"
[00:02:25] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,150,2)) (Event #77)
"IT DOES"
[00:02:24] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,153,2)) (Event #76)
"up here."
[00:02:22] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #75)
"stop using these pumps"
[00:02:17] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #74)
"That is dumb"
[00:02:14] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #73)
"stop bypassing cooling"
[00:02:11] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #72)
"leave it be."
[00:02:10] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #71)
"It is fine"
[00:02:06] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #70)
"That is the temprature of space."
[00:02:02] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #69)
"space"
[00:02:01] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #68)
"That is pure"
[00:01:57] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #67)
"-250oC"
[00:01:54] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #66)
"LOOK AT THE METER"
[00:01:51] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #65)
"look at the meter"
[00:01:50] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #64)
"You are stupid"
[00:01:42] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #63)
"All the pipes cool it equally"
[00:01:37] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #62)
"This does."
[00:01:32] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #61)
"Robust cooling system"
[00:01:29] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #60)
"this is fine piping"
[00:01:26] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #59)
"about"
[00:01:23] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #58)
"what are you speaking"
[00:01:19] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #57)
"This is perfectly fine"
[00:01:16] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #56)
"and do not delam."
[00:01:12] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #55)
"C02 engines are pressure engines"
[00:01:09] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #54)
"You are dumb"
[00:00:46] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Starboard Primary Hallway (128,138,2)) (Event #53)
"come"
[00:00:39] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (126,129,2)) (Event #52)
"Please remove ce."
[00:00:33] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (125,128,2)) (Event #51)
"CE is annoying."
[00:00:30] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Command Hallway (124,126,2)) (Event #50)
"can you assit bean"
[00:00:27] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Command Hallway (122,127,2)) (Event #49)
"wiz"
[00:00:20] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Head of Personnel's Office (97,133,2)) (Event #48)
"wizard."
[00:00:16] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Command Hallway (98,126,2)) (Event #47)
"can."
[00:00:14] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Command Hallway (98,126,2)) (Event #46)
"wiz"
[00:00:06] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,135,2)) (Event #45)
"wizard"
[23:59:57] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,127,2)) (Event #44)
"Ce needs to be removed"
[23:59:50] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,128,2)) (Event #43)
"you are clearly disfunctional"
[23:59:43] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,134,2)) (Event #42)
"you do not understand c02 engines."
[23:59:39] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,136,2)) (Event #41)
"please remove the ce."
[23:59:35] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,139,2)) (Event #40)
"wizards"
[23:59:14] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Engineering Foyer (164,139,2)) (Event #39)
"SECURITY TO ENGINEERING"
[23:59:00] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (167,149,2)) (Event #38)
"STOP"
[23:58:58] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (167,149,2)) (Event #37)
"THIS IS A C02 ENGINE YOU MORON"
[23:58:54] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (167,149,2)) (Event #36)
"THIS IS C02 ENGINE YOU MORON!!"
[23:58:40] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,160,2)) (Event #35)
"CEASE"
[23:58:01] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (169,149,2)) (Event #34)
"CE is going to blow up SM"
[23:57:53] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,151,2)) (Event #33)
"Security to engineering"
[23:57:50] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (173,152,2)) (Event #32)
"LET IT BE"
[23:57:46] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (173,152,2)) (Event #31)
"C02 ENGINES"
[23:57:44] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,152,2)) (Event #30)
"DO NOT UNDERSTAND"
[23:57:41] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (173,152,2)) (Event #29)
"YOU"
[23:57:38] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (173,153,2)) (Event #28)
"CEASE"
[23:57:36] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,154,2)) (Event #27)
"THIS IS C02 ENGINE"
[23:57:29] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,148,2)) (Event #26)
"LET IT COOL"
[23:57:26] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,148,2)) (Event #25)
"STOP"
[23:57:24] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,148,2)) (Event #24)
"THIS IS C02 ENGINE"
[23:57:21] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,148,2)) (Event #23)
"Cease"
[23:57:01] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (170,148,2)) (Event #22)
"CE is sabatoging engine."
[23:56:43] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (171,148,2)) (Event #21)
"cease"
[23:56:40] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,149,2)) (Event #20)
"You will deleam engine"
[23:56:26] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,148,2)) (Event #19)
"Get out"
[23:56:12] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,149,2)) (Event #18)
"stop"
[23:55:01] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine (165,154,2)) (Event #17)
"This is c02 engine"
[23:53:51] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (168,148,2)) (Event #16)
"..."
[23:51:59] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Space (175,120,2)) (Event #15)
"Bean producing c02 engine."
[23:51:50] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Space (175,120,2)) (Event #14)
"Why."
[23:51:44] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Atmospherics (171,126,2)) (Event #13)
"You pumped plasma in it"
[23:51:40] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Atmospherics (171,126,2)) (Event #12)
"Fuel line is for engine."
[23:51:33] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Atmospherics (171,126,2)) (Event #11)
"Fuel line has c02 in it."
[23:51:26] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Space (175,127,2)) (Event #10)
".........."
[23:51:20] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Space (175,128,2)) (Event #9)
"..."
[23:50:24] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Space (178,145,2)) (Event #8)
"bean produce co2 engine"
[23:47:18] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (165,149,2)) (Event #7)
"Bean work"
[23:47:17] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Supermatter Engine Room (165,149,2)) (Event #6)
"No"
[23:45:58] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Starboard Primary Hallway (157,138,2)) (Event #5)
"bean requires two tesla and grounding rods"
[23:45:34] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (Central Primary Hallway (127,140,2)) (Event #4)
"Bean produce C02 engine"
[23:45:21] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (AI Upload Access (99,147,2)) (Event #3)
"I ment to say."
[23:45:17] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (AI Upload Access (99,147,2)) (Event #2)
"I am bean."
[23:45:14] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (AI Upload Access (99,147,2)) (Event #1)
"Oh."
[23:45:12] Legoscape/(B.E.A.N) (AI Upload Access (98,147,2)) (Event #0)
"fuckin"

Regarding this part:

For the record, The admin that had added this note left out the parts of me actively looking for security or even calling security to remove the Cheif engineer from engineering.

I did not intentionally leave it out - but I do think it would be fair to add it into the note. My apologies - I usually write very detailed notes, but I did not want to delay the round end further.

Despite this, I still think that you did not act in good faith by asking a wizard to "remove" the CE. I did not ignore the fact that you called out for security - it was brought up in the ahelp. This was the appropiate way of handling what you thought was a rogue CE. Forgive the formatting:

Spoiler:

wubli bwoinked legoscape 6 hours ago
Hey there. As an ASIMOV borg, you shouldn't really be asking the wizard to kill the CE, should you?
00:00:10

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
I asked the wizard to remove ce.
00:00:08

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
Not kill.
00:00:07

wubli replied to legoscape 6 hours ago
And what could removing CE possibly mean?
00:00:08

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
Remove him from engineering
00:00:15

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
My laws don't allow me to say "kill the ce"
00:00:33

wubli replied to legoscape 6 hours ago
No, but you do understand that telling an antag to "remove someone" isn't really going to be the same as asking a security officer, right?
00:04:47

wubli replied to legoscape 6 hours ago
I want to be clear on this. I believe you know perfectly well what you meant by asking the wizard, an antagonist, and multiple times, to "remove the CE". You are encouraging human harm by doing this, and I highly doubt you can even convince yourself otherwise. Do you understand why it is wrong?
00:00:43

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
The CE was actively attempting to deleam the crystal. No one was awnsering. Wizards are human. My laws and reasoning was just.
00:01:10

wubli replied to legoscape 6 hours ago
This is not about whatever argument you were having with the CE. This is about you asking an antagonist to remove them. Have security arrest them if you may, don't ask someone who is actively causing human harm to "remove someone" and then pretend like that's within your laws simply because you didn't use the word "kill".
00:00:35

legoscape replied to wubli 6 hours ago
one sec
00:01:47

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
Presuming I wish to kill the engineer is assuming I want him dead; you cannot understand my intentions because the CE was actively attempting to mess with the engine, In a way that could cause it to deleam. I previously asked security multiple times to remove him, yet no one came. Wizards being humans, are still viable options to ask to remove someone from engineering.
00:01:24

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
Space law does not exist in silicon policy or law, The three laws are all I have to deal with situations. Antagonist or not, It's still a human and can achieve the means of stopping the CE from attempting delam and this actively helps the situation of preventing human harm.
00:03:46

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
I find one log of you saying "security to engineering" before then telling the wizard to remove te CE.. three times. So it's not like you used it as a last resort. You still chose the person who was actively causing human harm and used the only way you could word it that did not technically imply murder. I am going to say it again, this is *not* about the argument you had, it's about asking a known antagonist to "remove" someone and thinking that is somehow okay because of tricky wording. I am not going to ban you - it will simply be a note, and you're more than free to appeal it. But please stop and think for a second about an ASIMOV borg asking an antag who is harming people to "remove" someone. You are supposed to avoid human harm at all costs, not enable others to do it.
00:01:16

(Side note here: I was wrong, you called for security not only once, but twice. This does not change the rest of the ahelp, though)

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
Quick question, Did what I say caused active human harm?
00:00:15

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
It did not, no. If it did, it would have been a ban.
00:00:17

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
But you are presuming the wizard would kill the CE.
00:00:22

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
You know why I asked a specific wizard. Because he was the most friendly of the two wizards.
00:00:34

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
Someone, say, telling the AI to kill itself, does not make it any less bad just because the AI is allowed to ignore that law since it's in bad faith. Your actions not having consequences because they were not acted upon do not make it any less of a law break.
00:02:47

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
So for the record, You are giving me a note because you presumed I directly cause human harm, And you also suspected I wanted the wizard to kill him and not remove him from engineering, as I said before, intending to prevent the SM from delaming because the CE was an active detramate to the station. What I had asked of the wizard was not only not acted on, It had no intention of human harm.
00:00:53

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
I am giving you a note for asking an antagonist to "remove the CE" and claiming it somehow isn't ASIMOV because you didn't use the word kill.
00:00:13

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
Sorry, I meant it isn't breaking your ASIMOV laws
00:00:52

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
So, What did I do wrong exactly?
00:00:17

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
What law was broken?
00:00:43

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
Space law has no merit in silicon law. Syndicates are to be protected by cyborgs even if they cause harm.
00:00:56

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
Asking a capable antagonist to "remove the ce" is no different to asking a scientist or a assistant to remove the ce.
00:00:27

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
Asking a known antag who is harming people to remove someone is very similar to asking them to harm them. We are going in circles because you refuse to admit this. You may appeal this note on the forums if you truly believe it's wrong.
00:00:32

legoscape replied to wubli 5 hours ago
I will dammnit, With ben shapiro facts and logic.
00:00:13

wubli replied to legoscape 5 hours ago
Good luck with that.

Honestly, even maybe if you had simply admitted that the wording was wrong, I wouldn't have noted you, but you insisted on it and every other admin that I asked agreed that it was out of line for a borg with ASIMOV laws.
I am saying it once more: this is not about the argument you had with the CE. You asked an antagonist to "remove the CE" implying it would in any case mean the Wizard would arrest or non-harmfully get the CE out of engineering.
The removal is denied for me - I am willing to add the calling for security part because it does seem fair to do so, but my ruling remains the same, as explained over and over in the ahelp.
I am interested in hearing other admins' takes on this, though. No one who was online disagreed with me, but I hope this can be rectified if I was in the wrong.

I do have a question for you - what would have happened if, effectively, the wizard had gone into engineering and killed the CE? Would you still think that it was not in any way your fault? Or do you only think this note has no merit because no one was hurt?

[Pandarsenic]

I would like to clarify that part of the original silicon policy does explicitly allow (arguably, require) you to make judgement calls about your Asimov laws based on whether someone seems likely to harm humans - see the example of that normally you must allow a human with upload access into your upload, but a captain authorizing executions or an RD who's soaked in blood should absolutely not be let in.

"Antagonist" is not (or at least should not be) part of the silicon IC vocabulary and threat assessment, only their behavior.

If this wizard has fireball, and likes to use it? Very harmful spell, keep that fucker out of engineering entirely, present harm matters more than potential future harm. Magic missile that they could cable cuff off of? Maybe a little more reliable.

Asking someone "Remove" is a trickier part, because it is highly contextual - it's completely different asking an assistant with baton and cable cuffs vs. a security officer vs. an antagonist engineer who just fed poly to the SM vs. a HOS covered head to toe in blood from executing "a changeling, I promise" vs. a wizard

And asking a wizard to remove or get rid of someone is very different depending on whether they have a staff of change, or fireball, or MM/Ei Nath, or Repulse... and whether they're more likely to use those proactively or talk to someone and whether the person you've asked them to remove will fight back and harm the human wizard.

Ultimately, this comes down to the core of silicon policy: you have been placed in an impossible situation. Did you make the best of a bad situation and try your genuine best to get all humans out unharmed? Was there any obvious, better option that you could have done instead?

[wubli]

"Antagonist" is not (or at least should not be) part of the silicon IC vocabulary and threat assessment, only their behavior.

Never implied it had to be part of the vocabulary.
There were multiple wizards, and it was not a friendly wizard round. It was not a single time thing either, as shown in the logs, it was asked of at least one of them thrice.

My point from before stands - what if this wizard had said "sure!" and went into engineering to kill the CE? Why ask one of the wizards, when people are complaining about human harm from at least one of them?

This note is about an attitude issue. Asking a wizard three times to "remove" someone could've easily ended in their death. If it was just a one time thing said in the heat of the moment, okay. But it was the path chosen after just two attempts at saying "sec to engineering" over comms.

Hope that makes sense. Ultimately this is about not trying your luck and risking having a human harmed by what you know is the person most likely to harm them (because it was not a friendly wizard round).

[legoscape]

I would like to clarify that part of the original silicon policy does explicitly allow (arguably, require) you to make judgement calls about your Asimov laws based on whether someone seems likely to harm humans - see the example of that normally you must allow a human with upload access into your upload, but a captain authorizing executions or an RD who's soaked in blood should absolutely not be let in.

"Antagonist" is not (or at least should not be) part of the silicon IC vocabulary and threat assessment, only their behavior.

If this wizard has fireball, and likes to use it? Very harmful spell, keep that fucker out of engineering entirely, present harm matters more than potential future harm. Magic missile that they could cable cuff off of? Maybe a little more reliable.

Asking someone "Remove" is a trickier part, because it is highly contextual - it's completely different asking an assistant with baton and cable cuffs vs. a security officer vs. an antagonist engineer who just fed poly to the SM vs. a HOS covered head to toe in blood from executing "a changeling, I promise" vs. a wizard

And asking a wizard to remove or get rid of someone is very different depending on whether they have a staff of change, or fireball, or MM/Ei Nath, or Repulse... and whether they're more likely to use those proactively or talk to someone and whether the person you've asked them to remove will fight back and harm the human wizard.

Ultimately, this comes down to the core of silicon policy: you have been placed in an impossible situation. Did you make the best of a bad situation and try your genuine best to get all humans out unharmed? Was there any obvious, better option that you could have done instead?

Contextually the argument could be had my intent was very clear when I had indicated to the crew over coms and even asked security to remove the ce he's sabotaging the engine. I had asked the nicer of the two wizards if he could remove the CE and I was going to begin to speak with him about the aspects of non-harmfully removing the chief engineer until the wizard ran off and got deleted by the crew.

This note is about an attitude issue. Asking a wizard three times to "remove" someone could've easily ended in their death. If it was just a one time thing said in the heat of the moment, okay. But it was the path chosen after just two attempts at saying "sec to engineering" over comms.

This is clearly not an attitude issue, In your A-help, you even stated at the beginning of our discussion, "I know you". You cannot possibly know who I am or my intention without having to look at the logs in depth, Which you failed to link two situations together. My attitude/anger stouts from a chief engineer clearly unknowledgeable of aspects of removing ALL coolant in an engine with a 20% Deleam tick, The kind of Deleam that if it is not handled properly It will explode. The Chief Engineer was so self-righteous in his ideas he even threatened to kill me. This is not an attitude issue, This is an issue of a false presumption of my intentions.

[wubli]

In your A-help, you even stated at the beginning of our discussion, "I know you". You cannot possibly know who I am or my intention without having to look at the logs in depth, Which you failed to link two situations together.

"I believe you know" is in no way the same as "I know you". I did not talk about you as a person - I talked about you as an experienced player. Being an admin means interpreting too when someone made a genuine mistake, or if it was malicious, or whatever the case. It is impossible for us to know what is going on inside your or any other player's head, and we have to work with what the logs and responses in ahelps say.
I worked with the logs I had. You were upset at the CE and asked a wizard, part of a team that was actively harming humans, to "remove" them.

You are still not responding to my question. Do you think you would've been guilt-free had the wizard actually gone in and killed the CE?. If no, then the note still makes absolute sense, because "actually I did not mean for that to happen" would not be a good excuse.
All you did was argue about how saying "remove" couldn't at all be related to kiling them. You say that you meant to explain to the wizard how to remove the CE peacefully, but only after asking them to "remove them" three times? Couldn't you have said it from the very beginning, or at least, the second or third time?
How is it wrong for me to believe that "remove" meant "kill", when you could've also said "get the CE out of engineering"?
Why is it not okay to assume you implied human harm? Was I supposed to understand that by remove you meant "from engineering without harming them?" Was it really clear in the logs at the moment I PMed you?

I am mostly done responding to this appeal - it is denied. I have updated the note to reflect the fact you tried to communicate with security on two opportunities before resorting to the wizard:

After arguing with the CE over the SM setup, asked one of the wizards at least three times to "remove the CE". This was not acted upon by the wizard, but asking an antagonist whose entire gimmick is (usually) to harm humans to remove someone does not sit well for an ASIMOV lawset.
Attempted to contact security to arrest the CE twice before asking the wizard to remove them three times.
No matter how many times I tried to explain this in ahelps, they refused to understand. Please be more careful when playing silicon

[legoscape]

In your A-help, you even stated at the beginning of our discussion, "I know you". You cannot possibly know who I am or my intention without having to look at the logs in depth, Which you failed to link two situations together.

"I believe you know" is in no way the same as "I know you". I did not talk about you as a person - I talked about you as an experienced player. Being an admin means interpreting too when someone made a genuine mistake, or if it was malicious, or whatever the case. It is impossible for us to know what is going on inside your or any other player's head, and we have to work with what the logs and responses in ahelps say.
I worked with the logs I had. You were upset at the CE and asked a wizard, part of a team that was actively harming humans, to "remove" them.

You are still not responding to my question. Do you think you would've been guilt-free had the wizard actually gone in and killed the CE?. If no, then the note still makes absolute sense, because "actually I did not mean for that to happen" would not be a good excuse.
All you did was argue about how saying "remove" couldn't at all be related to kiling them. You say that you meant to explain to the wizard how to remove the CE peacefully, but only after asking them to "remove them" three times? Couldn't you have said it from the very beginning, or at least, the second or third time?
How is it wrong for me to believe that "remove" meant "kill", when you could've also said "get the CE out of engineering"?
Why is it not okay to assume you implied human harm? Was I supposed to understand that by remove you meant "from engineering without harming them?" Was it really clear in the logs at the moment I PMed you?

I am mostly done responding to this appeal - it is denied. I have updated the note to reflect the fact you tried to communicate with security on two opportunities before resorting to the wizard:

After arguing with the CE over the SM setup, asked one of the wizards at least three times to "remove the CE". This was not acted upon by the wizard, but asking an antagonist whose entire gimmick is (usually) to harm humans to remove someone does not sit well for an ASIMOV lawset.
Attempted to contact security to arrest the CE twice before asking the wizard to remove them three times.
No matter how many times I tried to explain this in ahelps, they refused to understand. Please be more careful when playing silicon

If you honestly believe I'm stupid enough to let the wizard INTO ENGINEERING without speaking to him previously, You must absolutely be off your rocker. But here you go again, You assume I will let the Chief Engineer actively be harmed. You assume-assume-assume. You completely ignored the situation I was placed in and you entirely ignored the destruction of the SM and a large portion of the station ((It was a c02 engine could have been the entire station)). There was no active crew to assist with stoping the Chief engineer from being an absolute bafoon. I asked the nicer of the two wizards because he not only didn't kill me on sight, He spoke with me and could be reasoned with. You are setting a terrible standard for admins. Words that lead to no action are now hereby a note-able offense. (With the exception of erp). The words "I want to kill you, But I can't" Can now be a notable offense in these regards. You speak so highly of a situation you believe would happen but never occurred. You are not an omnipotent being. Asking another human to assist to stop the sure destruction of the station and harm of people is within my law set. Unknowingly killing someone is not.

[wubli]

You are setting a terrible standard for admins.

lol

Words that lead to no action are now hereby a note-able offense.

telling an AI to kill itself will get you noted even if the AI ignores you for acting in bad faith

Asking another human to assist to stop the sure destruction of the station and harm of people is within my law set.

"help me stop the CE" and "CE is annoying, please remove the CE" are very different, aren't they?

The words "I want to kill you, But I can't" Can now be a notable offense in these regards.

you did not say this, you asked a wizard, part of a team that was actively harming humans, to "remove" another human. this was somehow meant to be interpreted as "please get them away from engineering safely", but you still argue that it couldn't have possibly be interpreted as "kill them". i would like you to know this was ahelped about by a player, and not something i personally noticed, and, again, no admin online disagreed.

this is my last response to this thread because we are going in circles and now you are just trying to attack my general judgement and i'm not really up for it! i believe i acted fairly even in this thread, trying to talk to you over and over. i try to be as nice and understanding as someone can be but it's not going anywhere evidently. you may ask a headmin to overturn my decision, but this appeal is denied.

[legoscape]

You are setting a terrible standard for admins.

lol

Words that lead to no action are now hereby a note-able offense.

telling an AI to kill itself will get you noted even if the AI ignores you for acting in bad faith

Asking another human to assist to stop the sure destruction of the station and harm of people is within my law set.

"help me stop the CE" and "CE is annoying, please remove the CE" are very different, aren't they?

The words "I want to kill you, But I can't" Can now be a notable offense in these regards.

you did not say this, you asked a wizard, part of a team that was actively harming humans, to "remove" another human. this was somehow meant to be interpreted as "please get them away from engineering safely", but you still argue that it couldn't have possibly be interpreted as "kill them". i would like you to know this was ahelped about by a player, and not something i personally noticed, and, again, no admin online disagreed.

this is my last response to this thread because we are going in circles and now you are just trying to attack my general judgement and i'm not really up for it! i believe i acted fairly even in this thread, trying to talk to you over and over. i try to be as nice and understanding as someone can be but it's not going anywhere evidently. you may ask a headmin to overturn my decision, but this appeal is denied.

How predictable, Ignoring more factual material evedince.

[legoscape]

Close this thread, Nothing productive will come from it. I will not argue when there is a clear lack of understanding from the opposed party.

[wubli]

[Coconutwarrior97]

This is my own opinion,

"Remove the CE" is a very ambiguous quote that can be left subjective

This is exactly why an asimov borg should not be saying this sort of thing to the wizard, since its very likely that wizard is going to take it as "kill this guy".
Which is exactly what you don't want to see as an asimov borg. Your insistence that the statement was fine seems like reasonable grounds for a note being applied.
Looks like wubli has also edited the note to include the part about security, which is good. Anyways, the note looks fine to me.