[Fatal1X]misunderstanding

InsaneRed · Post by **InsaneRed** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:58 pm #609875

BYOND account: InsaneRed
Character name: Thomas Dankforth
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 1 day
Ban reason: Excessive gun cargo,killed a security member doing his job because "he fired first" when you have a small armory in cargo you dont get to kill seccies who resist your guncargo
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 167375
Your side of the story: Me and another person were doing russian mafia as cargo anyway the usual we ordered 2 wts and a mosin set for the cosmetic purposes, i heard reports of a chemist shooting people with a syringegun and went over to check it out, we found him in chemistry and we broke in at this point a security officer called us "hostile permission to engage them", now keep that in mind, anyway we checked this chemist and he had nothing we hired him as our meth maker for cargo (we didnt forcefully stun him or anything he surrendered himself and offered to become our dealer by his own will, so we werent ncessarily hostile) anyway after hearing the words of the security officer me and brick went back to cargo so that we could talk it out with security and hos, now while we were doing this a third party cargo tech who i have no relation to came behind the hos and shot him, this resulted into the hop,the seccie,and the hos shooting us (i dont blame them here i would have done the same) anyway after the third party gets involved shootings happen and since i dont wanna goto prison we fall back into cargo and at this point we realized that the chemist was shooting people with romerol and there were a few zombies around after a bit of a scuffle the hop is killed by another person and once again i had no involvement in killing him other then shooting him a few times when he rushed into cargo with a baton i mail him to medical to get him revived anyway we have a few more fights with the det and seccies and now the seccie is pretty wounded up and he keeps coming back to shoot us with lasers and i get annoyed and get out of cargo (note that at most i chased him down to the ai upload in meta and i finally have him cornered i put him in crit (ive already had put him in crit many times before but he kept coming back) as far as if i actually killed him? i dont remember because there was another person who i believed killed him(IM NOT 100% SURE ON THIS) anyawy i drag him back to cargo to get his batons out and i was about to start sending him to medical like i did to hops but i get pda bombed, and the sec officer turns into a zombie because apperantly he had romerol in him and i couldnt save nor help him in anyway because by the time i had finished explaining myself to fatal i was banned

please note that i never chased him into the depths of station at most infront of ai upload (mostly because they would shoot us from here) because i didnt want to kill them, he claimed that i wass going out of my way to chase and kill them which i did not do any under circumstitance if that was my goal i couldve killed the detective when he was alone and running towards medbay but once again this was not my goal as i wasnt a traitor. if security had arrested us i would not have gone back to kill them nor try to take revenge in anyway as it was completetly within ic reasons to arrest even kill me, however admin intervation in the middle of combat (me getting pda bombed and zombie seccie at the same time) didnt give me enough time to explain myself nor did fatal wait for a response from me anyway (he told me he had tickets piling up which i dont partly blame him for)

in the end it was a shitshow caused by another third party cargo tech who i had no relation to, not at any point did i shoot first nor the tell the cargo tecchies to shoot them so i feel like i kind of got caught in the middle of it and this feels more of an ic issue then required ban
also after checking the logs its not even me who killed him, i was gonna let the mediborg take him away but somnoe else shot him so i took that opportunity to take the body and mail it to medical after stripping their guns
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:22 pm #609890

Alright, I will apologise for being pretty short with you in the ahelps, but as I say, there were a LOT of tickets, and I from what I saw, you blatantly gunned down a security officer who had fired some lasers at you, but I'll go through some proper logs and do this properly

Here's the manifest for those involved, for some reason this is pretty fucky because I'm absolutely certain that "Roibeard" was a traitor, but for some reason the manifest.txt says he wasn't

The lawyer was also promoted to a security officer at some point, I am not sure when, so some of his actions earlier in the round could be interpreted as being a lawyer

tlaltecuhtli \ Brick Carr \ Quartermaster \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
Theduffyboi1916 \ Roibeard 'Cluichire' Ua Brea \ Cargo Technician \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
Biblefan01 \ Zane Fea \ Cargo Technician \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
InsaneRed \ Thomas Dankforth \ Cargo Technician \ NONE \ LATEJOIN

YackMiller \ Yack Miller \ Detective \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
Improvedname \ Eden Wabbite \ Head of Security \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
Mysterious_Guy_007 \ Brian Costello \ Lawyer \ NONE \ LATEJOIN

Felix_Marshall \ Nolan Bakker \ Head of Personnel \ NONE \ LATEJOIN

Now, Brian was the one you shot so I'll focus on him firstly

Spoiler:

Okay, apologies for the giant wall of logs, but there was a lot to go through

I'll now refer to your side of the story:

Your side of the story: Me and another person were doing russian mafia as cargo anyway the usual we ordered 2 wts and a mosin set for the cosmetic purposes, i heard reports of a chemist shooting people with a syringegun (this was true, it was the chemist with romerol I believe, but it's not massively important) and went over to check it out, we found him in chemistry and we broke in at this point a security officer (yes this was Brian I believe who was previously a lawyer) called us "hostile permission to engage them", now keep that in mind, anyway we checked this chemist and he had nothing we hired him as our meth maker for cargo (we didnt forcefully stun him or anything he surrendered himself and offered to become our dealer by his own will, so we werent ncessarily hostile) anyway after hearing the words of the security officer me and brick went back to cargo so that we could talk it out with security and hos, now while we were doing this a third party cargo tech who i have no relation to came behind the hos and shot him (I didn't cover this in the logs, but this was true, and this guy was also banned for his actions), this resulted into the hop,the seccie,and the hos shooting us (i dont blame them here i would have done the same) anyway after the third party gets involved shootings happen and since i dont wanna goto prison we fall back into cargo and at this point we realized that the chemist was shooting people with romerol and there were a few zombies around after a bit of a scuffle the hop is killed by another person and once again i had no involvement in killing him other then shooting him a few times when he rushed into cargo with a baton i mail him to medical to get him revived anyway we have a few more fights with the det and seccies and now the seccie is pretty wounded up and he keeps coming back to shoot us with lasers and i get annoyed and get out of cargo (note that at most i chased him down to the ai upload in meta and i finally have him cornered i put him in crit (ive already had put him in crit many times before but he kept coming back) as far as if i actually killed him? i dont remember because there was another person who i believed killed him(IM NOT 100% SURE ON THIS) anyawy i drag him back to cargo to get his batons out and i was about to start sending him to medical like i did to hops but i get pda bombed, and the sec officer turns into a zombie because apperantly he had romerol in him and i couldnt save nor help him in anyway because by the time i had finished explaining myself to fatal i was banned

please note that i never chased him into the depths of station at most infront of ai upload (mostly because they would shoot us from here) because i didnt want to kill them, he claimed that i wass going out of my way to chase and kill them which i did not do any under circumstitance if that was my goal i couldve killed the detective when he was alone and running towards medbay but once again this was not my goal as i wasnt a traitor. if security had arrested us i would not have gone back to kill them nor try to take revenge in anyway as it was completetly within ic reasons to arrest even kill me, however admin intervation in the middle of combat (me getting pda bombed and zombie seccie at the same time) didnt give me enough time to explain myself nor did fatal wait for a response from me anyway (he told me he had tickets piling up which i dont partly blame him for)

in the end it was a shitshow caused by another third party cargo tech who i had no relation to, not at any point did i shoot first nor the tell the cargo tecchies to shoot them so i feel like i kind of got caught in the middle of it and this feels more of an ic issue then required ban
also after checking the logs its not even me who killed him, i was gonna let the mediborg take him away but somnoe else shot him so i took that opportunity to take the body and mail it to medical after stripping their guns

Whilst I will agree this was a shitshow not only caused by yourself, the security officer here was merely trying to do his job, and did initiate by flashbanging and did not "fire first" as you claimed to me

I will post the ahelp ticket also: For admins only I believe https://sb.atlantaned.space/tgdb/tickets/167375/15

Me: Bad news bro, killing seccies doing their jobs, not cool, Im putting a dayban on

You: he shot first

i am also going to revive then can you calm dwon? christ

Me: When you guys are going full guncargo and have already killed the HoP, Im not sure what you expected

Youe are self defencing

they all atacked first, i havent shot untill the hop shot first

as for the cargos actions of the other person with mosin who shot (i dont know their name)who started all of this i have no idea nor acn i speak for them i wanted peace with captain

As I said before, I will apologise for being short with you in the ahelp, not giving you a chance to explain why you did what you did and not investigating thoroughly, but, I did witness the events and I felt you had done enough that this ban was deserved, but I do understand this was a shitshow of a round, and the HOS was attacked by another cargo tech who started it all, and there was a traitor cargo tech (despite the manifest.txt saying otherwise I am certain)

Spoiler:

After looking through the logs, which are extensive, I stand by my decision, you fired first, not the security officer, and this was not just merely self defence in my opinion, but I am willing to change the wording of it, because as you say, you did not kill him, you critted him

Now, as I say, these logs are very extensive, there could be something I missed, feel free to look through them if you feel I missed anything critical to this appeal and post it, I'm happy to go through it

EDIT: I forgot the manifest and game logs like a dumbass

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 5/game.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nifest.txt

EDIT #2:

[2021-08-07 12:42:37.553] GAME: Theduffyboi1916/(Roibeard 'Cluichire' Ua Brea) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)
[2021-08-07 12:42:37.553] GAME: DYNAMIC: Theduffyboi1916/(Roibeard 'Cluichire' Ua Brea) was selected by the Syndicate Sleeper Agent ruleset and has been made into a midround traitor.

The manifest says he wasn't but he was made a traitor fairly early on in the round

EDIT #3: Cleaned up some of my formatting

InsaneRed · Post by **InsaneRed** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:10 pm #609899

[2021-08-07 12:59:35.047] SAY: Mysterious_Guy_007/(Brian Costello) "you are hostile" (Storage Wing (85,147,2)) [(declares us hostile)
[2021-08-07 12:59:42.308] SAY: InsaneRed/(Thomas "Vladimir" Dankforth) "we are not hostile we are neutral" (Storage Wing (83,146,2)) i try to speak to him that we are not hostile
2021-08-07 12:59:48.691] GAME: Mysterious_Guy_007/(Brian Costello) has primed a flashbang at Storage Wing (85,147,2) for detonation. (Storage Wing (85,147,2))
he throws flashbang afte rthe first hit even tho I AM ONCE AGAIN NOT INVOLVED IN THIS (the person who shot the hos was coming from the vault direction not even from the main cargo area but he throws the flashbang at me anyway
[2021-08-07 12:59:55.213] ATTACK: InsaneRed/(Thomas "Vladimir" Dankforth) has shot Mysterious_Guy_007/(Brian Costello) with 4.6x30mm bullet (NEWHP: 93.3) (Cargo Bay (74,146,2)) i start shooting because he is clearly targeting me not the person who shot hos

now firstly
"You then throw a bottle at him, and shoot at him"
he kept climbing over the desk not saying anything when i asked him what he needs, he also broke the window with a toolbox after which i demanded money from him for the property damage (he refused so i shot him once)

Now a very important point i like to make here is, yes i did shoot him and did like barely any damage (the wound can literally just be stopped by epipen in your bag)

he goes to hop gets promoted and comes back to VALIDLY arrests me this sounds like a way to banbait or even just arrest anyone you would like to, ((the hop in question who promoted him, came to cargo and asked if we wanted to rev against NT)) (he was also dual wielding laser guns and attacking us with a human shield (dragging ssd human behind him on a chair)

also this lawyer could have been as well a traitor because i knew he was not a proper security member (roundstart / latejoin) but instead got promoted so i didnt trust him 100% especially after he came straight back to cargo because i shot him once and he kept insisting on getting into cargo shiftstart(so there should be no metaprotection of security in this case because he wasnt a proper security member)
----------------------------------------------
now at this point the entire sec force + hos was on our ass, as hos called an execution of all cargo

now you say that the ban is deserved but i have basically done nothing but shoot sec a few times as most of my shots missed (as for the janitor he was infront of cargo right in the dead of all fire, he once rushed to the door ((sec officer)) and he got shot in the crossfier i cant do anything about that why was he there in the first place) im being banned for something that removed a sec officer from a round that i had only critted, if not for the other tecchie i would have let the borg get him so once again I HAD NO CONTROL over how this turned out (he died above bridge as i said next to ai upload) this at most calls for a note as its still an ic issue because i didnt kill anyone be valid or not, most of my bullets miss and the ones that hit dont kill in that situatino why am i being banned? (as i said he was clearly targetting me because he didnt go after the person who shot HOS but instead after me, which is why i would say this is 100% self defense

edit : just a side note you say the person who killed him got antag, how am i responsible for the actions of an antagonist that i didnt even know was antag? the ban is for killing a sec officer (which i didnt) and the person who finished him off was an antag so this ban is very much an ic issue and not bannable i would say unless you have started banning people for just shooting people while sec (made to arrest said people) exist
edit 2 for logs : [2021-08-07 13:10:05.250] ATTACK: Theduffyboi1916/(Roibeard "Strelok" 'Cluichire' Ua Brea) has fired at Mysterious_Guy_007/(Brian Costello) with 7.62 bullet from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: -52.5) (Central Primary Hallway (99,144,2))
[2021-08-07 13:10:05.517] ATTACK: Theduffyboi1916/(Roibeard "Strelok" 'Cluichire' Ua Brea) has shot Mysterious_Guy_007/(Brian Costello) with 7.62 bullet (NEWHP: -52.5) (Central Primary Hallway (99,144,2))
edit 3 for logs (he is literally just becoming sec to get to me) :

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:39 pm #609907

Yeah okay, fair enough, his actions when he was a lawyer, and smashing down the cargo door, entirely justifiable for you guys to throw him out and shoot at him (if not slightly excessive but, IC issue at that point yes)

However, he threw the flashbang at cargo, I can only presume, to stop you all, not the individual who shot at the HOS (because he probably didn't know which one DID shoot the HOS)

As for saying he shouldn't get any metaprotection because he isn't a roundstart seccie? Well, he got job changed to a security officer and his actions as a security officer, throwing a flashbang and firing lasers when you guys shot at him, that's not enough to strip him of his metaprotection in my opinion and I believe, provided you act as a security officer should (which he did) then he should have the metaprotection

As for the HOS calling for you all to be executed, could you paste that line from the logs so we can line it up with the logs previously put so we can put it into a time context?

And yes, you are right, the ban is for killing a security officer which you didn't, I'm totally willing to edit the wording of the ban / note to reflect this, but if you shoot at a security officer with 2 magazines of autorifle, and put him into crit, and someone else finishes him off, you are hardly an innocent in this

I'll see if I can get some other admin input on this and get their opinions because this was a significant clusterfuck of a situation

InsaneRed · Post by **InsaneRed** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:54 pm #609910

"As for the HOS calling for you all to be executed, could you paste that line from the logs so we can line it up with the logs previously put so we can put it into a time context?"
[2021-08-07 13:04:45.202] SAY: Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) "do not hestitate" (Central Primary Hallway (125,116,2))
[2021-08-07 13:04:48.348] SAY: Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) "blowing their heads off" (Central Primary Hallway (127,127,2))

"Hwever, he threw the flashbang at cargo, I can only presume, to stop you all, not the individual who shot at the HOS (because he probably didn't know which one DID shoot the HOS)"
There was about a 10 tile diffrence between me and the dude who shot the hos, me and brick didnt even have our guns out
[2021-08-07 13:00:06.944] SAY: Sweet Daytona/(Chambermaid) "Zane fea has shot the HoS!!" (AI Chamber (214,144,2))
[2021-08-07 13:01:06.272] SAY: Sweet Daytona/(Chambermaid) "Unprovoked." (AI Chamber (214,144,2))
the ai literally saying who shot the hos, the ai tells who shot the hos but he is still going for me? seems like this man is doing nothing but seeking fights and griefing

"And yes, you are right, the ban is for killing a security officer which you didn't, I'm totally willing to edit the wording of the ban / note to reflect this, but if you shoot at a security officer with 2 magazines of autorifle, and put him into crit, and someone else finishes him off, you are hardly an innocent in this"

You said it yourself that most of my bullets missed.
Im not saying im innocent but im saying this definetly does not require a ban especially because i couldnt control him not killing the officer, i didnt ask him to, i didnt tell him to,i had no involvement in the choice of an antoganist and that that point its an ic issue (i would have literally revived him or sent mail him to medical EVEN AFTER HE WAS KILLED) but i got pda bombed and he became a zombie not much i could have done about this. in my opinion you kind of rushed into this ban without understanding all the situation and not realizing this could have very easily be solved without instantly banning me and letting me get the seccie revived)

and i was also informed you told the qm to tell us to calm down instead of messaging me directly which is kind of even more supporting of this, why tell the qm and not me directly about an action that could get me banned? this is 100% a ic issue that you should have taken the time to talk to me during the shift, even if it meant taking other tickets first and maybe message me instead of qm especially in a situation that could get me banned

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:23 pm #609916

Alright, after talking to some of the other admins and looking at this more, regarding the HOS calling for all your deaths, I'm willing to remove the ban, and leave this as a note for a warning for shooting security doing their jobs as gun cargo, would you be willing to accept that? You could have handled this a lot better (as could a lot of other players involved)
and I think a note is fair

As for talking to the QM and telling him to get you guys to cut it down a little? He never actually replied to me so I assumed he never did, and that was about 10 minutes before I saw the officer die, and at that point, it was my opinion that this was a borderline IC issue (remember I looked through the logs a lot more after the round, although I was looking at the logs from some of the incidents during, especially with the one who shot the HOS)

Remember, players who toy with gun cargo need to be very, very careful about playing firmly within escalation, please bear that in mind, buying guns is not necessarily a right to own them or open fire on security who come for them

InsaneRed · Post by **InsaneRed** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:25 pm #609918

yes that works for me

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:39 pm #609925

Alright it is done and reduced to a note:

From previous ban reduced to a note, warning to be very careful in future to not get carried away with guncargo and shooting security with lethal force, after a lawyer was thrown out of cargo and shot once by InsaneRed and became a security officer to deal with it

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