[Iain0] FlatulentIndustrialist - rule 11 admin CPSU committee note appeal

[Flatulent]

BYOND account: FlatulentIndustrialist
Character name: Jan Nie
Note length: 3 months
Note reason: Rule 11 breach in OOC : Defined the N word as being a slur (in their own words) and used it as an insulting term in reference to the captain. This case was referred to adminbus to check for some consensus.
Time ban was placed: 2021-08-30 20:32:53
Server you were playing on when noted: Terry
Round ID in which note was placed: 168727
Your side of the story: After a round of captain being "funny" about ignoring the revolution, assaulting his own security officer (me) for trying to stop people being murdered in the bridge, and giving my gear to a mime who turned out to have a health sensor suicide bomb later in the round (very antagonistic dont you agree?), and I was very upset after the round ended. So I called the captain a nigger in OOC and called it a day. A few seconds later, some unknown individual asked me If i even knew what the word meant. I told them that it was just a slur, and then I got bwoinked by Iain, the rest is history and is probably in the logs.
Why you think the note must be removed: Because I think that this note is nonsensical and idiotic. I got an admin message with the appeal (will post it on the bottom of the message) saying that the problem isn't that I'm saying slurs, but because defining this specific word has "negative implication". The rule 11 was specifically introduced to ban bigotry, but right now in this note it's being used to restrict "negative implications" which I assume is just insulting people. I am unaware if the captain or the player had African descent, nor does it matter to me. What matters is I got a note for insulting people (and the insulting was well-deserved on the receiving part) on the fucking internet.
If the note will not be removed, please explain why so I can use this note as a precedent to adminhelp those who insult me so you give them a note too. Because (as Iain told me) he consulted with the adminbus, logging your discussions and putting the relevant points here from discord shouldn't be a huge problem.
References of good conduct: no
Anything else we should know: 2021-08-30 20:34:01 | Terry | Round 168727 | Iain0 "Allright, conclusion was a 3 month timed minor note on your account. As I suspected, defining it as a slur makes it a "negative implication", and the problem is /why/ that word was ever a negative implication..... If you wish to use slurs generally there are a great many others you can choose from that will avoid any possible rule 11 situations in future. Thanks."

[iain0]

There's nothing additional here for me to comment on particularly, I know you disagree, and I disagree with you. I used this case as a litmus test, as I told you I would, and took it to other admins to get consensus, so you've already had half a second opinion on this. The feedback I got from other admins suggested my interpretation was on the right path and as such there isn't any new evidence or rationale in this appeal that would make me go back on all that work and opinion behind this decision.

If you want to "insult people on the fucking internet", which a great many players do, try do so without using such words. There are plenty of peers around that can give you examples of other insults. It's less difficult than the standard drama seems to suggest.

As for the 'why', it's in the note, it's in the very nature of you defining your own usage as being a "slur". Why is it a slur, the exact reason and meaning?

If the line remains grey and blurred to you then as always the simplest option remains not to say this particular word, and use the thousands of other options available to you none of which require you to spend time trying to defend your usage of.

My opinion remains unchanged thus far.

There's nothing additional here for me to comment on particularly, I know you disagree, and I disagree with you. I used this case as a litmus test, as I told you I would, and took it to other admins to get consensus, so you've already had half a second opinion on this. The feedback I got from other admins suggested my interpretation was on the right path and as such there isn't any new evidence or rationale in this appeal that would make me go back on all that work and opinion behind this decision.

If you want to "insult people on the fucking internet", which a great many players do, try do so without using such words. There are plenty of peers around that can give you examples of other insults. It's less difficult than the standard drama seems to suggest.

As for the 'why', it's in the note, it's in the very nature of you defining your own usage as being a "slur". Why is it a slur, the exact reason and meaning?

If the line remains grey and blurred to you then as always the simplest option remains not to say this particular word, and use the thousands of other options available to you none of which require you to spend time trying to defend your usage of.

My opinion remains unchanged thus far.


(Edit: Yes, me leaking the conversation from adminbus is a huge problem, an internal only channel and leaking is expressly forbidden unless I get explicit consent from everyone in the conversation to repeat everything they said. which isn't going to happen I would imagine)

[Flatulent]

Slurs aren’t banned. Nothing in the rules suggests that and rule 11 was introduced explicitly as a ban on bigotry and not a ban on “no-no” words. We don’t have a word filter for the slur, we don’t have a policy saying that you specifically cant say that one slur and we certainly don’t have precedents of people recieving a note for saying slurs you specifically dislike. I understand that you’re expecting that headmins banning slurs will win the head admin vote, but I think you’ve acting ahead of the schedule here.

Line isn’t grey and blurred, it’s black and it’s explicitly very sharp, and nothing currently exists on any of the moderated wiki pages that would suggest that it isn’t.

[iain0]

You assume a lot, there is nothing about headmin elections related here and I've yet to review the candidates since the initial platform posts (which only a couple mentioned anything about this, and I seem to remember they went both ways), so I've no idea what the majority consensus amongst candidates is, simply that I believe you broke the existing rule 11 (because breaking possible future rules isn't a crime. who would even think it is? well apparently you think I would I guess. weird opinion to decide to believe in *shrugs*)

The contextual use of THAT word as a "slur" is problematic.

Also you keep avoiding the only question I've tried to get you to answer, so for the third time, "Why is it a slur, the exact reason and meaning?". And if all you have to add is that you disagree, yup, noted, you have expressed this many times in the PM and the conversation so far, saying it again won't help.

[Flatulent]

I don’t answer the question because I believe it’s completely irrelevant to the conversation and to my note appeal, as I could have said any slur and still end up here, talking to you. What is relevant is that you choose to ignore that slurs aren’t fucking banned.

[iain0]

I really don't care if you think it's a relevant question, not really up to you to decide, you can of course refuse to co-operate. The point is to get an insight into your thought process and lead you down a path of reasoning, but you refuse to join in instead sticking to simply saying "no, you're wrong", for the umpteenth time, which I've already told you will have no impact at this point. Good use of a response.

So, I'll stop trying and just race this through to the bottom of the conversation, since you actually have nothing to add to your case in this post other than deciding I'm wrong, which also isn't your place, and thus there isn't really much for me to be involved in, so I can leave it to you to decide if you wish further escalate.

My take is along the following lines, and also something I discussed with adminbus. I think I have a good take, though if I'm ruled as missing the mark then I'll certainly try better understand the implications.

"OK" use (though still, why bother, but whatever)
Medical | CMO: Hey N*s, war declaration, get your asses ready for some medical grind and run if you see nukies.
Acceptable because the synonymous meanings are "friends, team, group, brothers, family", and other words that get regularly re-used to indicate a group of people you interact with and get along with together.
Dictionary wise, N* is defined as a person of dark skin, and this makes little sense in this context. Family is also defined as common ancestor/parent/children and makes little direct sense in this context. The common association is that they're groups with a common bond that it's a positive experience to be part of. People think family is stronger than friends (I can assure you there are people in families who would definately disagree), so use of family in this context is just a bonding term, thus similarly is the N* word.

"BAD" use
OOC: Captain's a N* because they (did something bad | put the disk in the nuke shift start and left it there because the vault is safe right? | etc)
Unacceptable use because the synonyms are all negative, such as "retarded", that is, the implication is the word is negative to associate with a person. And the question is 'why?', which you refuse to engage with as a discussion. As I said, you literally define it as such yourself by calling it a slur. You're making it something you use against someone
The dictionary definition this time being somewhat more relevant, the question you never answered, why is it a slur? Why is it negative to be "of dark skin"? Why is saying someone is "of dark skin" a comparable phrase to saying someone's "brain is not quite right". How do the two connect? "Captain's a retard" v "Captain's a N*" // "Captain's mentally underdeveloped" "Captain's a person of dark skin".

[Flatulent]

The dictionary definition this time being somewhat more relevant, the question you never answered, why is it a slur? Why is it negative to be "of dark skin"? Why is saying someone is "of dark skin" a comparable phrase to saying someone's "brain is not quite right". How do the two connect? "Captain's a retard" v "Captain's a N*" // "Captain's mentally underdeveloped" "Captain's a person of dark skin".

It’s not negative to be “of dark skin”, you’re pulling that out of your ass again. You see connections where there are none, I am using insults to insult people and it’s entirely my call which insults I am going to use to do it. I don’t want to call captain underdeveloped, of dark skin or him having his brain be not quite right, I could call him an asshole but I consider asshole to be a “low caliber” insult which doesn’t really attract the attention of the person I’m insulting. Considering this a low caliber insult was caused by how people tend to reply to it.
And if you want to hear why it’s a slur, i’ll give you a history lesson as I understand it.

Countries and people I have zero connection towards have historically used this word to refer to people of African descent. My people had zero connection to Africans beyond seeing them as a novelty and one of them being grandfather to a famous poet who is considered to be one of the greatest literatory treasures my people possess. The word we use to describe them is “негр” and it remains in use today in everywhere from scientific circles (негроидная раса referring to people of “african race” in racial classification from biology classes) to common usage today. This term never had any negative connotation to it and remains to have zero negative connotation today. In modern era, when I happened to grow up, internet served as a way to connect people from different regions together with zero time lag.
As most multiplayer games, forums and online communities were English and I happened to somewhat know English language, I incorporated a lot of speech I heard and read into my vocabulary as I am a late millenial and I happened to have been learning English around the time (1999-2012) when imageboards such as 4chan were concieved and Xbox Live and Modern Warfare voice chat lobbies have been extremely popular. Word “nigger” was one such word I adopted into my vocabulary and it has always been used all the fucking time in every concievable situation when you want to insult someone. I understand that it may be extremely hard to grasp for the vast majority of admins who are primarily of west european and american descent, but not everyone you meet has deep grudges and opinions on people who you happen to consider to be “disadvantaged”, “oppressed” or “stigmatised” as this list has been expanding every single fucking year and it’s kind of hard to keep up with it.
I hope this cleared up some of the questions you might have had, but I’m really done replying to you for any other reason other than dispersing slander.

[iain0]

It's mostly just a "don't use it in this way" kinda note, and I'm not really sure that having learned from internet culture is a great justification for a base of interpretation, certainly communities vary but the vast vast majority of online places will simply have a outright ban on the N word period. Those are my experiences. But that's not the lesson of your experiences.

Either way I guess we just have our opinions, and that's fine, but my job isn't to enforce my opinions either it's to enforce the rules and become the spirit of the rules. (Discussions about rule 0 aside).

If you're happy to wrap up our discourse I'll move to simply reject your appeal ; I put a lot of thought and got several other peoples inputs before settling on noting you, and your opinion alone isn't enough to overrule that. As such you can then proceed to appeal to headmins. If they side with you, then hopefully they will explain to me what the nuances are in a way I'll understand, and if they side against you then I'll be reaffirmed in my interpretation of this rule. Either way I should get better at my job, so probably this is the path we're both waiting for.

[Flatulent]

I want headmins to rule on this as rule 11 is clearly not worded well enough if this is a correct take fully consistent with the rules.

[cSeal]

MSO stepped forward to give his exact intent with rule 11, when Iain0 asked for clarification on it. Posting it here with permission from the man himself

[Flatulent]

Can this please not be on discord so I can actually see the fucking rules I'm supposed to follow?

[MrStonedOne]

Can this please not be on discord so I can actually see the fucking rules I'm supposed to follow?

This was in the serious admin discussion channel, no players can see it anyways.

[RaveRadbury]

Seeing as we have received clarification from the host that was delivered at the time of noting, we believe that the note should be upheld.

We will be adding the host's clarification to the headmin rulings on the wiki
EDIT: We added it to Rule 11 itself

Votes:
RaveRadbury - Uphold
NamelessFairy - Uphold
Dragomagol - Uphold