[ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

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Moltov
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:49 pm
Byond Username: Moltov

[ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617613

BYOND account: Moltov
Character name: VivI Fanteriso
Note Reason:MRP - As a janitor attacked a medical doctor that was deep-frying consenting positronic brains as their gimmick. The doctor was stunned cuffed and then attacked in the deep fryer to be "shown why he shouldn't do it again". Please do not intervene in situations you don't know much about even more so over escalating those situations.
Time ban was placed: 2021-10-27 07:14:18
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: Round 172009
Your side of the story: Right so for reference. Pennance set off a bomb causing the bar, kitchen, and the main hall to sustain damage, and the warden trusted VivI enough to deputize them. I brought Pennance's head to the warden because they died in the explosion, and left to clean up and repair the bar. Some laps around the station after the bar and kitchen were fully repaired a medical doctor (Broly Butterfingers) was in the kitchen, they deep fried a positronic brain, put it on the counter, and the chef started to try to get them out. Then he deep-fried another brain, and I prepared a cleaner grenade to knock them down. and de-escalate the situation- as Broly and chef were now full-on fighting, the doctor had been stabbed multiple times. And would've died if I didn't intervene. I hopped the counter after my grenade went off, flashed the doctor, stunned them, and applied cable cuffs, making sure the cook stayed away from them. I ranted about how their shittery behavior made my job as a deputy and janitor much harder than it had to, told them I would not come in to clean up because of them again, dunked their head in the fryer because of what they did to the positronic brains, and threw them to a paramedic. The positronic brains during this were screaming "WHY ME", "JUST END IT ALREADY" "HELP" etc. Broly was not an antagonist, he was just being a shitter, causing a fight, and deep-frying positronic brains. I had no way of knowing it was consensual given the brains were crying for help.
Image
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proof I didn't leave them to get CQC'd and actually detained them
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Broly wasn't an antag, he was just starting toruble
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Why you think the note should be removed: This falls under an in character issue. After it was done it was done, and there was no need for admin intervention. The admin involved didn't understand the situation fully, (see attached images)
FlamingCheese
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Location: Manuel

Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by FlamingCheese » #617648

Hi! The issue stemmed from the chef starting to attack Broly lethally after being told to leave 3 times and I will bring up the logs relevant to the appeal.
First instance of Broly being lethally attacked (they where shoved a few times before that):
[2021-10-27 06:04:21.148] ATTACK: Korusho/(Khal-Thrask) has attacked DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) with kitchen knife (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 83.8) (Kitchen (145,152,2))
This is the only time Broly actually retaliated with only two shoves
[2021-10-27 06:04:47.320] ATTACK: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) has shoved Korusho/(Khal-Thrask) (NEWHP: 79.8) (Kitchen (141,153,2))
[2021-10-27 06:04:48.192] ATTACK: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) has shoved Korusho/(Khal-Thrask) (NEWHP: 79.8) (Kitchen (140,153,2))
A few miliseconds after the shoves you throw a grenade to "de-escalate" the situation then you climb into the kitchen to intervene further. As far as i can see, you where able to see that Broly only shoved twice while the chef was stabbing and punching them.
[2021-10-27 06:04:48.707] ATTACK: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) has thrown the cleaner grenade (Kitchen (146,157,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:05.063] ATTACK: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) has climbed onto [reinforced table] (Kitchen (150,155,2))
You stamcrit Broly and handcuff them then proceed to deepfry their face and headslam them on a table which put them into crit. After you threw them out the detective handed them off to a paramedic.
[2021-10-27 06:05:51.584] ATTACK: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) has suffered: Second Degree Burns to head | Damage: 24.9 (rolled 56/90.0905) (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:54.778] ATTACK: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) has head slammed DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) against the reinforced table (NEWHP: -58.9) (Kitchen (149,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:58.099] ATTACK: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) has thrown DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) grab from tile in Kitchen (149,154,2) towards tile at Fore Primary Hallway (156,155,2) (NEWHP: -58.7) (Kitchen (149,154,2))
[2021-10-27 06:06:08.230] ATTACK: Tyaper/(Desmond Clarke) DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) has been stripped of the cable restraints by Tyaper/(Desmond Clarke) (Fore Primary Hallway (153,154,2))
[2021-10-27 06:06:11.289] ATTACK: Tyaper/(Desmond Clarke) has grabbed DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) passive grab (NEWHP: -61.2) (Fore Primary Hallway (153,154,2))
[2021-10-27 06:06:26.809] ATTACK: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) was fireman carried by Luteema Junal (Fore Primary Hallway (153,154,2))
Say logs relevant to the attack logs
[2021-10-27 06:05:32.502] SAY: 06:05:32.502] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "dont" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:34.648] SAY: 06:05:34.648] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "come in here again" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:36.291] SAY: 06:05:36.291] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "I aint cleaning" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:38.926] SAY: 06:05:38.926] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "your fucking blood again" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:43.547] SAY: 06:05:43.547] SAY: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) "HE'S NOT MAKING ANY FUCKING FOOD" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:43.701] SAY: 06:05:43.701] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "do you understand me" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:47.105] SAY: 06:05:47.105] SAY: DurrHurrDurrHurr/(Broly Butterfingers) "HE'S BEEN HERE FOR AGES" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
[2021-10-27 06:05:48.188] SAY: 06:05:48.188] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "do I make myself transparent" (Kitchen (148,155,2))
To add to the whole thing you even told the chef to use CQC to subdue Broly and not a knife but you still decided that Broly was the bigger issue (also for context the chef was new to the job itself)
[2021-10-27 06:04:34.159] SAY: 06:04:34.159] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "YOU HAVE CQC FOR A REASON" (Atrium (146,158,2))
[2021-10-27 06:04:35.181] SAY: 06:04:35.181] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "USE IT" (Atrium (146,158,2))
[2021-10-27 06:04:38.134] SAY: 06:04:38.134] SAY: Moltov/(VivI Fanteriso) "NOT A FUCKING KNIFE" (Atrium (146,158,2))
The reason I made my ruling as is was because for whatever reason you decided it would be good to intervene without thinking twice as to why every single brain (the brain's life is not more privileged (the brains literally have nothing to loose as they are just a brick of metal and gold) than a crewmember's) Broly deepfried was the same ckey (what I mean by this is that the player behind the positronic brains knew what all this is even before going in the brains with a personality seed set as: "you are in agony", I also know you can't see the ckey of the posi brain but you can figure out why every cube was activating)
Why you think the note should be removed: This falls under an in character issue. After it was done it was done, and there was no need for admin intervention. The admin involved didn't understand the situation fully, (see attached images)
Broly brought this up to me via ahelp and he found it a issue (so have I), you also wouldn't just waive all charges against a crime someone committed after it was done this also applies to this situation.
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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617661

To add to the whole thing you even told the chef to use CQC to subdue Broly and not a knife but you still decided that Broly was the bigger issue (also for context the chef was new to the job itself)
CQC doesn't mean consecutive/lethal CQC. I wanted the chef to stop with the knife and punches, and use restrain/pressure moves on Broly. They did not and were not going to do that.
The reason I made my ruling as is was because for whatever reason you decided it would be good to intervene without thinking twice as to why every single brain (the brain's life is not more privileged (the brains literally have nothing to loose as they are just a brick of metal and gold) than a crewmember's) Broly deepfried was the same ckey (what I mean by this is that the player behind the positronic brains knew what all this is even before going in the brains with a personality seed set as: "you are in agony", I also know you can't see the ckey of the posi brain but you can figure out why every cube was activating)
You made your ruling for something I could not have possibly known? How did Broly and the other player communicate that they were going to keep frying the posi over and over again? How is that a gimmick? How is it acceptable and roleplay appropriate? Players jump into Posi brains all the time, why would I think for a second it was the same player? That's stupid.
FlamingCheese
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:44 am
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Location: Manuel

Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by FlamingCheese » #617662

As I said the chef was new and probably didn't know the CQC combos fully.

The player behind the brains figured out quickly what was happening without external communication (i'm assuming)
You made your ruling for something I could not have possibly known?
The player's knowledge of a situation isn't a major part of forming a ruling, I also wouldn't have known if you are lying or not but I will not be going into the hypotheticals of that.
How is that a gimmick?
It was a interesting idea and atleast one player enjoyed it.
How is it acceptable and roleplay appropriate?
If it doesn't ruin someone else's fun (directly) then it is acceptable, about the roleplay appropriatness of it: this is Manuel and not baystation. As long as you aren't spewing out netspeak and are a somewhat believable character, its appropriate
Players jump into Posi brains all the time, why would I think for a second it was the same player?
Ghosts see where a brain was printed/activated and they can teleport there to take a look at the unusual location and figure out why they where requested (I also don't think there would be multiple people joining cubes ONE BY ONE to be deepfried)

If you haven't figured out yet, I feel the note was justified. (that is why I placed it in the first place)
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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617666

It was a interesting idea and atleast one player enjoyed it.
I still don't see how starting a fight with a chef and frying posi brains is an interesting idea.
We are at an impasse. I would like a headmin ruling on this with the information provided. Thank you.
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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617667

By the way. The chef isn't new. Ckey: KorushoImage
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #617699

I hope this isn't peanutting, but I'd like to point at a few rules that might've been forgotten here.

Firstly, listed within Rule 4: "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag." This should be obvious.

Secondly; Under RP Rule 4: "If you are not part of the security team (HoS, Sec officer, Warden, or Detective, sorry lawyers) you should not go out of your way to hunt for potential antagonists. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists, but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present." If VivI was just there and witnessed the dispute, stepping in is perfectly reasonable.

Thirdly; Under RP Rule 11: "If everyone agrees to being subjected to whatever terrible atrocities you have in store, then you’re good to go. Please keep in mind that this rule does not protect you from IC consequences, such as getting arrested by security." He was allowed to do it because everyone involved (the posibrains) were supposedly consenting, but the IC consequences of his actions were members of the crew intervening. Perhaps VivI doesn't think that even non-organic sentiences deserve that, maybe he doesn't want to see the resources being wasted, maybe it was just so he wouldn't keep getting himself stabbed by the chef, giving VivI more to clean up. But an IC intervention is justified.
FlamingCheese
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Location: Manuel

Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by FlamingCheese » #617726

I wrote this part in a rush without thinking about it
The player's knowledge of a situation isn't a major part of forming a ruling, I also wouldn't have known if you are lying or not but I will not be going into the hypotheticals of that.
I know that the player's actions (done by the incomplete knowledge of a situation and that is a part of the game's design) change a ruling, what I probably meant was that even if the player didn't know what happened, the admin probably did
Again I will say the chef was new to the job, not the game.
FlamingCheese
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Location: Manuel

Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by FlamingCheese » #617729

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:30 am Firstly, listed within Rule 4: "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag." This should be obvious.
True but I don't think Broly was acting in any antagonistic way. (if he where to, he would have been the one to recieve a note, not moltov)
Secondly; Under RP Rule 4: "If you are not part of the security team (HoS, Sec officer, Warden, or Detective, sorry lawyers) you should not go out of your way to hunt for potential antagonists. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists, but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present." If VivI was just there and witnessed the dispute, stepping in is perfectly reasonable.
I understand that it was reasonable to step in if there was no security to stop the dispute, what made this an issue is Vivi escalating to physical harm done to Broly.
Thirdly; Under RP Rule 11: "If everyone agrees to being subjected to whatever terrible atrocities you have in store, then you’re good to go. Please keep in mind that this rule does not protect you from IC consequences, such as getting arrested by security." He was allowed to do it because everyone involved (the posibrains) were supposedly consenting, but the IC consequences of his actions were members of the crew intervening. Perhaps VivI doesn't think that even non-organic sentiences deserve that, maybe he doesn't want to see the resources being wasted, maybe it was just so he wouldn't keep getting himself stabbed by the chef, giving VivI more to clean up. But an IC intervention is justified.
I don't know why then if Vivi was concerned for the posi brain's existence, why would he then threaten the life of a crewmember? The IC intervention was justified sure but that doesn't mean it can't be brought up to OOC intervention
I also didn't mention this anywhere else but as I see it, if you where to intervene in a situation you know little about you then carry responsibility to what happens after that.
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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617787

The IC intervention was justified sure but that doesn't mean it can't be brought up to OOC intervention
What?
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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617853

Again flaming there isn't any malice behind this appeal, I just want a head admin ruling on it because I genuinely don't see the point behind it.
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Mothblocks
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Mothblocks » #617869

Head admins have been notified, and a ruling is pending.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

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Moltov
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by Moltov » #617896

Mothblocks wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:09 am Head admins have been notified, and a ruling is pending.
Cheers.
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tattle
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Re: [ FlamingCheese] Moltov - Janitor deputy

Post by tattle » #619097

After discussing this note, we have decided that this should have been ruled an in-character issue. Moltov saw a chef in the kitchen fighting with someone who didn't belong there, and who appeared to have been acting antagonistically.

Moltov acted within the best interests of de-escalation according to the hybrid role they occupied. While the deep frier dunk on a defenseless person does approach the line ultimately it had context within the scene. Medical attention was secured shortly afterward.

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Overturn note
NamelessFairy: Overturn note
Dragomagol: Overturn note
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