[O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

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ATHATH
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

[O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by ATHATH » #618377

BYOND account: ATHATH
Character name: Dave the Eternal (wizard name; normal character name is Jack Jackson)
Ban type: Server ban for 1 week + antag ban for 1 week
Ban length: Server ban for 1 week + antag ban for 1 week
Ban reason:/Time ban was placed:
https://i.imgur.com/ovsQDrS.png
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: The ID of the round the offense occurred in was 172305, but the ID of the round the ban was applied in was 172308.
Your side of the story:
Video footage of pretty much the entirety of that round, along with some troubleshooting I did with Nianjiilical (starts at around 18:57) and my conversation with cyan (starts at around 58:22):


I rolled roundstart wizard, so I unearthed my tome of various wizard gimmicks and selected one that I had been wanting to do for a while ("soultap lich revised"). I checked to see if there was an AI (there wasn't), bought a loadout of Bind Soul + Teleport + Soul Tap + Shapeshift: ED-209 + Smite + Thrown Lightning, and teleported to the station, where I then bound my soul to an empty grenade casing, constructed an explosive lance from that grenade casing, and then attacked the gateway with it. If you don't already know this, the way that explosive lances work is that they move the grenade used to construct the lance into the thing you attack, then try to detonate it. Since incomplete chem grenades can't detonate, they'll just remain inside of the thing you jabbed your lance into- in this case, the gateway, which is indestructible. I then teleported out, did some minor hamming over comms (saving the major hamming ("I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!", "Give in to despair!", "I am inevitable!", etc.) for my later resurrections), smited a few people, and got lynched and beheaded. I then waited for my next respawn (in 3 minutes) so I could gloat smite a couple more people, die again, and repeat the process until either everyone but me was dead or the crew evacuated the station. Although I had forgotten to neutralize the chaplain's soulstone, they had already spent it before I had teleported to the station, which was incredibly fortunate for me.

Unfortunately, https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/62507 exists, and I ended up never respawning. Sad! After troubleshooting the issue with Nianjiilical for a while, I became a blob's blobbernaut and aided them in blueballing the crew (by trying to keep just under the critical mass threshold) for the next 30 minutes.

During this epic blobbernaut gameplay, around 45 minutes after I had initially died, I was bwoinked by O0cyann0o for "abusing a bug to become immortal and then using that to murderbone" (paraphrased). After an extended conversation with them about my reasoning and why what I did was/wasn't okay, they said that they had decided to ban me for 1 week and antag ban me for an additional week on top of that. A couple of minutes into the next round, they did exactly that.

After the round, I made this PR, which makes indestructible structures and mobs unable to be elanced: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/62505. Also, full disclosure, I think I tested this elance trick on a private server well ahead of this incident to make sure I wouldn't throw away a wizard round over a hunch.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
I disagree with the claim made by the ban appeal that I was "completely unkillable"- respawning after death is VERY different from having the godmode flag. If lichdom was working properly, it would've taken me 3 minutes to respawn each time I died, giving the crew time to revive my Smite victims, grow holymelons, make an AI, and otherwise adapt to my build between "waves". Because a red alerted shuttle call can reach the point of no return in only 2.5 minutes, the crew just needed to keep me at bay long enough for them to escape.

Because I was not invulnerable and undefeatable, but merely able to respawn a couple of minutes after each death, I felt that it was acceptable to run a murderboning loadout with this build, as it had feasible and interesting counterplay. Cyan (but not SpookiBoogi) apparently felt otherwise.

As precedent, Livrah did basically the same thing (murderbone with mostly unstoppable respawns) but as a changeling instead of as a wizard, and was unpunished:

As for precedent from other wizard builds, the dextrous stand + staff of healing build is arguably more unkillable than mine was, but you don't see people hand out bans over murderboning with that.

In summary, yes, I chose a strong, but not invincible wizard build with an effective method of protecting my phylactery that would have made me a memorable and interesting antagonistic force. Wizards, who are considered to be round-defining antags by dynamic (https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/62258), can run round-defining builds. More news at 11.

At the very least, I would like the "completely unkillable" part of this ban's note to be reworded, as it is not accurate. I'd prefer it if the note was removed altogether, though, as I do not believe that I was in the wrong here.


References of good conduct: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/62505
Anything else we should know: e
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
Byond Username: O0cyann0o

Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by cSeal » #618388

I'll formulate a proper response when I'm not as groggy, but I already updated the ban reason almost immediately after I applied it, both because you pointed out how "completely unkillable" wasn't entirely accurate, and because I realized I didn't properly convey the severity of the note
During round id 172305, attempted to abuse an exploit by embedding a phylactery into an indestructible structure in order to become completely unremovable from the round, and then murderbone- they were warned that their continued antics in regards to abusing code is not acceptable here. Continued shirking of our rules regarding exploit abuse will result in a perma ban, consider this a final warning.
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Livrah
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:43 am
Byond Username: Livrah

Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by Livrah » #618391

Wew lad. Just to get that "murderbone with mostly unstoppable respawns" (there is tell at least 3 ways to stop it) one footage, it took 7 science-ling rolls and almost half of year to speedrun it 40 minutes into the round. And I still didn't see anyone who abuse it.
I can't belive you brought this here after using 1 button and throwing shit into the wall due codedive.
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
Byond Username: O0cyann0o

Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by cSeal » #618393

Appeal denied
I've already edited the note to reflect the situation better, but I'm not willing to remove the note, reduce the severity, or reduce the ban length, as I feel all of those are justified.
The other "precedent's" that you've shown aren't relevant, as none of them are exploiting bugs
If an admin feels that an instance of bug abuse improved the round, as with other rule breaks, they can feel free to handwave it for that round, but this is not an expectation or an obligation on our part
You broke the rules, and you got banned. If you continue to break the rules, you will be permabanned. Open a policy thread if you want to try and change our rules regarding bug exploitation. Until the rules are changed however, stop abusing bugs and you'll run into no further issues
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ATHATH
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by ATHATH » #618404

May I leave this thread open for headmin review?
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
Byond Username: O0cyann0o

Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by cSeal » #618405

ATHATH wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:40 pm May I leave this thread open for headmin review?
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RaveRadbury
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Re: [O0cyann0o] ATHATH - Banned for trying to embed my phylactery inside of an indestructible structure

Post by RaveRadbury » #618776

Cyan has edited the note to more accurately represent the situation. This isn't your first time running into trouble with this kind of stuff. You should know better at this point.

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