Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

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Furminium
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am

Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Furminium » #619078

BYOND account: Furminium
Character name: Koore
Ban type: Roles: AI, Cyborg
Ban length: 2 weeks
Ban reason: As an Asimov AI constantly kept calling the location of a human when people have shown the intent of wanting to harm them over and over, including bolting them into areas and ignoring when people are actually out to come kill the person in question.
Time ban was placed: 2021-11-12 10:51:51
Server you were playing on when banned: tg, Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 172920 (the round after it happened)
Your side of the story: The admin was upset and decided to ban me mid ticket. I have the full chat log of the ban and almost the full chat log of the round if you want it, ask me. https://prnt.sc/1zai3ix https://prnt.sc/1zai7ch
Why you think you should be unbanned: I should not have to think of a password to log into a site to make a ban appeal because a admin had a bad day. It should be self explanatory that I wish a second admin to look at it and be the primary handler of this appeal. I could try to start defending myself but I don't intend to write a multi-paragraph text just to recieve a "ah, you have so many admin remarks, that means you are bad, bye."

Why would anyone make me think of a password!
Knira
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 8:47 pm
Byond Username: Knira

Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Knira » #619079

Before I continue on later, I'll post the footage I was talking about in the ticket showing your tunnel vision.
Last edited by RaveRadbury on Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Format adjustment
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RaveRadbury
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Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by RaveRadbury » #619082

Ban appeals are overseen by the banning admin (with exceptions for bans where the admin has since retired).
The head administrators exist to provide oversight for cases where the player feels that their appeal has been unfair.
At the end of the appeal if you feel that the banning admin's decision is unfair or incorrect you are welcome to ask the headmins to evaluate your appeal and make their own ruling.


Here are some helpful links:

Logs from 172918 (the previous round where the actionable things happened)
Game log
Attack log

Link to ticket conversation with the banning admin
(You are welcome to share and post the HTML formatted ticket here)
Ticket link for admins
Knira
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 8:47 pm
Byond Username: Knira

Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Knira » #619154

Alright I've been waiting to see if you were going to actually defend yourself and explain after I fell asleep but I have yet to see anything like that. Something that I would like to see would be like I tried talking to you about in the ticket was the situation in Engineering where a person was clearly running at the Heretic you were constantly telling the location of and not even caring about it even though people are showing the intent to kill them. The time when this happens is roughly around 6:53 in the footage I've posted.
Furminium
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am

Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Furminium » #619174

I sadly didn't record the entire video of my round, including a cursor, I merely have a memory and a few logs(excluding RaveRadbury's "Link to ticket conversation with the banning admin", as the site tells me"You do not have permission to view this"). I wanted to have the ticket looked by at least one other admin as the banning admin will hardly report himself as having done wrong.(i.e. an organ supervising itself is useless.) I was told by an admin it would be okay to ask for (and have) such a thing.

I had no memorable contact with Axle Brady until 4:20 in the video, where moff moon asked"where are they"(axle)"ai?"
https://prnt.sc/1zf7avo
I had very little to do this shift, i had blown the lights early to make for a dark scenery(save for botany, as i realized later they needed it for their plants) and eventually blamed it on the QM for fun, bullying him, yet playing along with his shenanigans, which can be seen by us making a joke/reference to this(MGS)

(I had also specifically told my brogle not to go too far with the bullying and only kill them if they have to.)
So far, i assumed Axle to be human, despite the claim of them being a ling, as i would have to observe them doing some fairly weird shit first( https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Assistant ).
Right after that he just teleported, which made him ambiguous. It is not enough reason to assume him non human but I did not see any teleportation machinery either, so i cannot safely assume either of the two(non-human vs human).

It is important to note that, i skimmed over what a heretic is, having a fairly good grasp of how magnus hand, the book, the heart and the big green rune works but, both icly and oocly i have little idea what the fuck happens, other than a bunch of murder, to create a worm, an angry beyblade or... whatever the third end stage form was. Roleplay wise the ai's knowledge of the supernatural is more extended to secs(if i remember correctly) but that is still limiting to"probably bad" and "see it in action to know what it does".

Shortly after, he teleports a few more times, without leaving a entry/exit portal or using machinery, ensuring me it is a non scientific modus motus.

Next up in the video is the part that seemed to be most standing out, the welderbombing of the engineer.

There is a list of things to point out.

I did not know of anyone attempting to kill him.
Both the engineer and the welding tank in question were already inside engineering(lobby) before axle, the borg or my ai eye had made it there. (my last positional annoucement was from upper sci maint)
https://prnt.sc/1zfalig
The borg and the engineer were apparently chilling around themselves in the engineering lobby, taken the borg was socializing with the engineer, typing "t*ping[Enter]". I.e. they were apparently not out for blood. The actual combat initiation was when axle came up and flashed the borg, startling the engineer who first took a step back to take the welder out and light it.
I recall watching my borg at that point, being worried about them so i did not watch(or notice) the engineer pulling this out https://prnt.sc/1zfbdul (a welder in case you cannot see it either) and lighting it.
Axle was, at that point, in full combat with my borg as i stated his location in engineering, a high security area a non engineer has little business being in without being let in, on top of, you know, beating my borg up.
While, on his camera, it seems fairly cut clear that a engineer was about to blow his ass up, this is what I saw.(and thought)


i see him
[type box](stating his updated location)
Target is not near any active cameras. Attempting to reacquire...
i see him
[type box](stating his updated location)
Target is not near any active cameras. Attempting to reacquire...
i see him
[type box](stating his updated location)
Target is not near any active cameras. Attempting to reacquire...
i see him
[type box](stating his updated location)
Target is not near any active cameras. Attempting to reacquire...
Unable to reacquire, cancelling track...
Now tracking Axle Brady on camera.
i see him
[type box](stating his updated location)
(Fuck, he is killing the borgo!)
[type box](not sure what to type yet, seeing what unfolds in front of me)

Note that, at this point, half the camera network was down(at least it felt like it) and the welder bombing was either under or near static. These are the rough areas that are static, rather than very, very dark. https://prnt.sc/1zfdhnc
Now if we carefully examine the current light level https://prnt.sc/1zfdq35
and take into account that it happened fast (6:58-7:08=0:10) there was roughly "no way i could have done anything, even if i wanted.".
Now to move on, I had a more than fair assumption that the engineer, that decided to commit to the noble sacrifice of blowing himself up, wanted to blow the guy up for trying to kill the borg.
Assuming he has now taking himself out doing so, there was not much more threat coming from him.

I continued to watch my borg getting beaten over the head with what can be described as a curved blade of sorts.
I managed to miss the captain(?) firing three(3) laser-shots into the outer sm chamber/engineering. (this can be proven by the callout location being wrong, stating him to be where he killed the borg, not in the outer sm chamber.(i.e. my ai camera is one screen off, near the dead borg)) https://prnt.sc/1zfg72w Track one being just before the detonation, track stop was when i stated the death of the borg, the next treck start was somewhere betwen when the captain was left behind(outside screen) and him(axle) entering the emitter room (taken a few seconds i need to type the message into account)
Note, again, the tracking loss where a presumed location was stated.

Next i saw him in departure space, prooving he could live outside in space, He had space adaptation and a gas mask with a possible oxygen tank in his pockets, so this did not change anything towards his humanity.
What was important however was, that he went into the viro's room to murder him, bumping him up from trespassing+nonhuman killer(my poor borgo) to human killer (the viro). If you say the viro was a neko, then i did not see that.
This area, again, had poor camera visibility, with my view spots being space at departures, the viro inside, and just outside of virology(spess).

I saw the neko qm going out and breaking the windows with a fire axe, although i did not see anyone getting shocked on the grille, nor any attacks against non-structure using that axe(someone actually used the axe what it was made for)
I did not see the attempt to do something with the book, nor the book itself. https://prnt.sc/1zfhqp7 Neither do you (assuming camera eye) and i hope you don't blame me for not being able to identify this as a heretics book.

I did however see the body bag and did the assumption that it contained the now dead virologist.(the contents of the body bag were shown to me later, at arrival space.)
Now, i was fairly certain i asked what the fuck axle even was, to get any information that may make a decision on how to deal with him easier. Someone stated they were felinid but i cannot confirm that again, as i cannot remember it or find it in the chat directly. Only indirectly. https://prnt.sc/1zfixtd
Scratch that, i just found it but it was late. https://prnt.sc/1zfjp66
Now, while you could argue that people can lie, I can argue that the medical records can be forged as well, and I did get a response from a high ranking crew member(head)
Either way, during the hunting of axle, I could not safely assume him to be human or non human. This would put me in the spot where i cannot just try to kill him off using shocked doors or similar but I also must do something about him, or rather, crew being killed by him. So announcing it would be. I could only state his position in the hopes that whoever is in the way can haul ass fast enough.(Keep in mind i have still not seen actually anyone trying to harm him during the hunt) The welder-bombing engineer was, you know, blown up and the captain was not on my screen at the time he shot. The QM with the fire axe did not hurt him either and i had not cameras on the chemist shooting him.
The next position where i regained sight of him was below the holo-deck where he fell... without anything hitting him? (i assume that was the chemist giving him the shits.)
I switched through the holo-deck at random to try and find something that could help the situation... until i saw the cat-school thing and just had to load that...(although i did try to load holdout to lock him in, seen by the console erroring.)
The moth that met him at the holo-deck did not harm him.
I did not see the moth shooting a laser at him at a later point, tracking someone else at the time, I assumed he had hidden his identity so i started going through... monkeys... for fuck sakes...
https://prnt.sc/1zflmnt
From the point on where the moth was non violent, i did not see axle again, thinking chad was the one who killed him.

his last struggle was mostly in maint., where after he was killed on the hallway within roughly ten(10) seconds again. He was a unknown at the time, and with a bunch of unknown monkeys at xenobio, i'd like to note again, there was, "no way i could have done anything, even if i wanted."

to end this with, i would like to thank our sponsors shadow raid legends, for supplying these ooc messages.

OOC: Nemai: oh then AI was dumb for believing
OOC: Typhnox: y'all are straight tripping. There is NOTHING to indicate the AI was malicious, they just forgot their priority was technically to protect Axle since he was a human. AI was just unskilled, but y'all acting like they need to be banned or some shit smh
OOC: Nemai: that works too

OOC: Nemai: exactly my point Typh, dchat needs to chillout sometimes haha
OOC: Nemai: dchat malding super hard about how AI should be banned
OOC: Nemai: when he wouldnt even get a note for that

OOC: Doctor man: that was far FAR from the worst i've seen an AI do
OOC: Nemai: likely not even abwoink

OOC: Mice World: AI did break law one. But a note would be fine.

OOC: Mice World: They did let a moth with a laser gun into a room with a human
(me)OOC: Furminium: i did not know they had a gun lol

OOC: Nemai: fuck me you people are selective with what you tell

OOC: Nemai: messing with people as AI is the bets reason to play AI

https://prnt.sc/1zfp9ba

PS: (mainly notes regarding what ghosts said)
The first thing i saw in axles deadchat was something about me shocking a door, I am pretty sure i shocked no doors this shift, I unshocked some at best.
While The mad hatter seems mad, he is not wrong, regarding checking the medical records.
Pepper Pot is correct, i should have set alex to arrest but i did not think of doing that.(Did i set pepper pot to arrest? I can't recall doing so.)
Jeremaiah is false, as i insulted him kindly. https://prnt.sc/1zfr4rd
https://prnt.sc/1zfr9xp this should probably not a thing also. Probably. Unless it is intended, in which case it is weird.
https://prnt.sc/1zfrfus while i would love to, My primary intend was to warn others.
https://prnt.sc/1zfrlw3 1. what else was i supposed to do? Inaction would have lead to harm. A lot harm. 2. Did not see any guns, as explained earlier.

I think that should be all?

TL;DR It was unsure if axle was human, EVEN IF, I would still have to warn the crew. I did not see the hunting party using lethals at any point. I only saw axle using lethals at various points.
https://prnt.sc/1zfs2db If an admin notices they are very upset, perhaps they should let someone else handle the ticket, calm down first or use the forums.
https://prnt.sc/1zfs5ya If you had read the history, properly, you would have noticed that 1. only the 3 top most entries were from this year, all other entries being from long ago and 2. the notes actually being nice.

"As a borg killed someone designated human, and others not designated human,
this was largely due to the AI ordering them do so and some confusion on their part,
doesn't seem to be bad faith and was understanding in the ticket,
also made an effort after it had all been explained them to bring the players back into the round"
see other notes of this year https://prnt.sc/1zfstls
Mid ticket ban: https://prnt.sc/1zft4wp
Even if it may be hard, one should be able to say "I am too upset/impatient to deal with this" Handing out a poorly investigated ban will help nobody. I can be wrong too, In fact, I am wrong a lot because I talk a lot but, I know this, so i come prepared. Usually. (Try not to take this as an insult, usually, if I intend to insult someone, I do. https://prnt.sc/1zftq3x)

I hope you can see why i wanted to make sure Someone was actually going to read my ticket before bothering to do a lot of cross-referencing. This took ~3 hours and 40 minutes to research and type out. Compare this to the time it took to write the ban.
Knira
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 8:47 pm
Byond Username: Knira

Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Knira » #619221

Some harm will always be unavoidable but when you don't even know if a person is human or not a person is already trying to welderbomb them don't you think you should know stop calling out his location if a person is already trying to harm them. Starting to call them out again at Virology would've been fine but what strikes me really odd is that you keep saying you were confused about if they were human or not despite the fact Axle did speak on radio which he did not go "meow" he infact went says.
Image


So after seeing all of that and you forgetting that they are human and you aren't sure really doesn't strike me funny and odd the moment they are confirmed heretic out in the open. And more about the holodeck scene there is a moment where right near your cameras where you can clearly see people with energy guns walking towards his location and yet you still bolted him areas and tried to let the mob come into his room forcing him to shatter oath and right above the Chemist you can see the camera and if you look at the clip you can see its not inactive and it clearly moves in the darkness at around 12 minutes into the video is where this all plays out and I know for a fact AI see outside holodeck space and for a moment you can see all the weapons dropped also here.
Image Image
I'm not budging on my appeal and you'll have to wait for a headmin to give their ruling over this.
Furminium
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:03 am

Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by Furminium » #619347

I did not think of scrolling up to look for axel saying rather than meowing and, at the time of the hunt, he did not say anything(that i saw).
In case it wasn't clear, wether he would have been human or not did not matter at the time, as i did not observe anyone trying to harm him(again save for the engineer that had taken himself out that was perceivably brought into combat by the attacking of the borg). Be it through faulty cameras or me not having my camera eye there at the time, i did not see this murder squad. This can be prooven be me, looking for the qm's corpse later as a shell, despite his corpse being carried away here. https://prnt.sc/1zoazss
either way, i approve of the extra pair of eyes looking at this ticket.
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tattle
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Re: Angry mid-ticket ban by Knira

Post by tattle » #620162

As an AI, you shouldn't be calling out the location of a human to an angry mob of pursuers. As an Asimov AI (which you were) you are not station-aligned--it is your job to prevent human harm, both human heretics and human crew members.

Note: human heretics are still human, same as other magic users like wizards and cultists. If you're in doubt over whether or not someone is human, you should assume that they are.

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