[Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

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dradavich
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[Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by dradavich » #619762

BYOND account: Dradavich
Character name: Don Kalesko
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: [img]https://i.ibb.co/7S8fkSQ/banreason.png[/img]
Time ban was placed: 11-18-2021 07:29:56
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 173236
Your side of the story: I made remote detonator chem bombs because I heard over the radio that the cultists were taking over the station, i came up from my chemlab to the medbay and see like 3 cultists with halos from what i remember one of them had a sword, so i tossed my bomb with one hand and detonated the remote with the other then went back into my chemlab because it looked like one of them was about to come attack me, I waited a little bit to see if the cultists would come down into the lab., at first i even thought my bomb had failed to explode because i heard no sound, after some waiting I came back up stairs saw even more cultists and threw my second bomb blowing the cultists away. after this i was informed that 3/4 of who had died were non-cult, I assume from my first bomb, because i saw my 2nd explode and they definitely were 100% all cult members.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Cult was well armed at this point they had halos and all sorts of equipment and were close to winning the game as they were overwhelming the crew, I didn't see any non-antags when i threw my bomb and when I detonated, (bombs take about 3 seconds to explode but i forgot to set it to 3 so it was 5). It could be tunnel vision on my part, but also could be people walking into the bomb as it was in a box. My First bomb saved somebody from being converted to the cult and they came to safety in my chemlab, I don't remember their name. I thought the cult had spotted me and were about to come convert or kill me so i threw the bomb, I definitely could not outrun them as my character was slow due to being hungry and having a negative mood. well 3/4 deaths were non-cult I'm pretty sure most of the people who were injured were cult. I had no intent in killing my non-cult crewmates.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Vekter » #619800

Per the Headmin Rulings on the Wiki:
Weapons of Mass Destruction to counter antagonists: An example of this is suicide bombing a wizard or BoH bombing the cult base. If use of the weapon does not win the round for your side immediately after, then it is grief and will be treated as such by admins.
There's some question here as to whether or not this would fall under it, but there is definitely precedent to show that, if you bomb an antag and get non-antags, you're liable for it.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #619814

To build further on that point from Vekter - targeting a couple cultists in medbay doesn't exactly win the round immediately for non-cultists. (especially because cult later won that round)

In terms of log evidence,

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[2021-11-18 07:20:07.324] GAME: A grenade detonated at Medbay Central (145,113,4)
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.327] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.339] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.349] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.360] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.369] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.378] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (145,113,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.640] EMOTE: Tatto_Moon/(Moff Moon) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Medbay Central (143,114,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:07.682] EMOTE: canadianbeb/(Default Android-97) shudders violently for a moment before falling still, its eyes slowly darkening. (Medbay Central (144,115,4))
was the first grenade, which hit two non-targets and no cultists.

The second grenade's results were as follows:

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:20:43.155] GAME: A grenade detonated at Medbay Central (147,115,4)
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.159] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.169] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.179] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.190] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.204] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.218] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Medbay Central (147,115,4)).  Possible cause: Gunpowder pill. Last fingerprints: dradavich/(Don Kalesko).
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.396] EMOTE: ThatOneStone/(Marco Coates) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Medbay Central (148,115,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.550] EMOTE: MGO/(Wraith (936)) collapses in a shattered heap. (Medbay Central (148,113,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.563] GAME: *no key*/(Wraith (936)) *no key*/(Wraith (936)) is no longer owning mob Wraith (936)(/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/construct/wraith) (Medbay Central (148,113,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.563] ACCESS: Mob Login: MGO/(Wraith (936)) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.590] GAME: MGO/(Wraith (936)) Client MGO/(Wraith (936)) has taken ownership of mob Wraith (936)(/mob/dead/observer) (Medbay Central (148,113,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:43.616] EMOTE: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless... (Medbay Central (148,117,4))
This hit Julia Toolbox, a wraith, and Marco Coates, so that's three cult kills, but it also managed to give Dr. Glib a hairline fracture (and his death 5 seconds after that, as he had fallen into hard crit) just a second later as he slammed into a wall:

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:20:44.235] ATTACK: Dyloxide/(Mr. Glib) has suffered: Hairline Fracture to right leg | Damage: 20 (rolled 64/66.2891) | WB: 10 (Medical (153,120,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:49.936] ATTACK: Dyloxide/(Mr. Glib) has died (BRUTE: 220, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 6, CLONE: 0) (Medical (153,120,4))
Two nonantagonist kills from explosives, and one kill from the immediate effects afterwards. To be entirely fair: you did actually get a better ratio of cult to non-cult kills than I originally believed, with 3/6 instead of 1/4, but that's still three non-cult kills.
Since you didn't win the round immediately as a result of these attacks you're getting those kills counted for as non-antagonist kills as a nonantagonist.

Thus, this appeal is denied - should headmins decide to intervene, they may, or you may request them to look over this ban.
Otherwise, you'll be able to play on the servers in (by my estimate) roughly 2 and a half days.

As a last note: Had you only attacked with that second grenade, I probably would've brushed this one off - one non-target kill as a side effect and not immediate result of a grenade vs two cultists + construct that PROBABLY would've killed the non-target anyway is enough for me to hand-wave over. It's just that your first grenade only hit non-cult that gave me the cause for concern when I saw it while observing.

EDIT: See below messages, Moff Moon was not non-cult - two non-cult were hit by this blast.
Last edited by Omega_DarkPotato on Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #619815

For some additional clarification in case the logs on glib look moderately funky - attack logs show that no other individuals had attacked Dr. Glib any time recently - the latest attack on him showed him down into -37 health, but that was certainly not DEAD.
The only attack that lead him to that level of damage was being clipped by that blast wave, resulting in his body flying into a wall.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by datorangebottle » #619841

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:02 pm

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:20:07.640] EMOTE: Tatto_Moon/(Moff Moon) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Medbay Central (143,114,4))
was the first grenade, which hit two non-targets and no cultists.

Hang on- I was the cult leader in this round, and I thought Moff Moon was a cultist by the time the bombs in medbay happened. I converted him myself.


Edit: Yep.

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:11:55.471] SAY: hoolny/(Juggernaut (297)) "Mah&#39;weyh pleggh at e&#39;ntrath!" FORCED by cult invocation (Port Primary Hallway (75,142,4))
[2021-11-18 07:11:55.475] SAY: Datorangebottle/(Anne Taggart) "Mah&#39;weyh pleggh at e&#39;ntrath!" FORCED by cult invocation (Port Primary Hallway (75,140,4))
[2021-11-18 07:11:55.478] SAY: Diegospartan/(Bonnie Firefly) "Mah&#39;weyh pleggh at e&#39;ntrath!" FORCED by cult invocation (Port Primary Hallway (76,141,4))
[2021-11-18 07:11:55.487] GAME: Tatto_Moon/(Moff Moon) has gained antag datum Cultist(/datum/antagonist/cult)
eight whole minutes before he was killed by the grenade.

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:19:01.229] WHISPER: Tatto_Moon/(Moff Moon) "Fuu ma&#39;jin!" (Medical (145,120,4))
no deconversion before being bombed.
dradavich
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by dradavich » #619866

Can this be left open for headmin review?
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #619869

I'll drop the duration by one day for that one - must not've seen him on the antag panel.
Also, Standard policy is to leave bans open for headmin review should they decide to intervene anyway, so I'll keep it open! (as well as ping em for it since I'm assuming you want one)
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dradavich
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by dradavich » #619870

Ok thank you.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by MooCow12 » #619871

I was a cultist using spirit realm and witnessed this encounter, the cult was swarming medbay and using a mix of stun hand and eldritch longswords + Halberd and even a blood beam so there was very little that medical staff could do and help was never going to come (we had halos by this point)

I believe the first detonation actually did kill another individual affiliated with the cult, it depends if the borg (known as "Default Android 97") was syncd to the AI or not (I`m not sure where to find this information in the logs but I do know for a fact that I subverted the ai this round before this point)

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ilicon.txt the target being for asimov that I used was "Nar`Sian cultist" (not that laws would matter anyway, a normal human loving borg would still be susceptible to getting in the way and friendly fire on them is often warranted)

I also want to further point out that Mr glib was suffering a weeping avulsion so that time they spent in crit was not going to get any better and help was not going to come even from the borgs since they were subverted so even they wouldn`t have done much except possibly try to have him converted (best case scenario)
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Tearling » #619897

MooCow12 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:19 am it depends if the borg (known as "Default Android 97") was syncd to the AI or not (I`m not sure where to find this information in the logs but I do know for a fact that I subverted the ai this round before this point)
While I'm also not sure, I managed to dig this up in the logs as one of the few things Android 97 said, only moments before the explosion.

Code: Select all

[2021-11-18 07:19:51.082] SAY: 07:19:51.082] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "fuck" (Medbay Central (147,116,4))
[2021-11-18 07:19:52.851] SAY: 07:19:52.851] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "I NEED" (Medbay Central (147,116,4))
[2021-11-18 07:19:54.691] SAY: 07:19:54.691] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "CONVERTERS" (Medbay Central (147,116,4))
[2021-11-18 07:20:00.375] SAY: 07:20:00.375] SAY: canadianbeb/(Default Android-97) "I don&#39;t believe I am able to do that." (Medbay Central (144,115,4))
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #619899

Honestly after sleeping on it and taking another day to look at this I've decided to lift the rest of the ban (time's served for your one nonantag kill anyway) and will bump the note down to medium instead of high.
Hitting one non-cultist and a borg that I can't determine via logs whether it's subverted or not (with logs leaning towards subverted) vs the cultists you did hit was good enough - just please, please make sure that you're not hitting noncult in the future with explosives, and avoid using them in high-traffic areas like med treatment center even if you ARE in fear of your life.

Sorry for the trouble, you should be able to play any time after I send this message.
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Re: [Omega_DarkPotato] Dradavich - Self Defense Bombing Against Cult ban because of collateral.

Post by Timberpoes » #620467

This looks resolved, so I'm gonna lock this and shift it over to the resolved section.
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