[Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

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Aspect102
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Byond Username: Aspect102

[Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

Post by Aspect102 » #635159

BYOND account: Aspect102
Character name: Austin Ullman
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Probation violation - As an acting captain thief (not a full antag), started a fight with a botanist who was blocking the cargo shuttle from leaving while asking why they were selling the contents of various lockers. Started by throwing bluespace crystals at them, an act with a non-negligible chance of getting them spaced, then when they tried to defend themselves with a flash and disabler on the floor started shooting at them with a pistol, then when that ran out, disablered them down. Finally, instead of getting them cuffed (reason too long, see following note for the rest)
Time ban was placed: 2022-03-27 15:21:03
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 180628
Your side of the story: I started the shift as a Research Director low priority, and appointed acting Captain due to the lack of other heads. I was also the thief where you steal weapons, with at least 3 guns, to complete the objective. I walk to cargo to steal some weapons, where I meet another fellow thief who needs 7 insuls, and is ordering crates for them. This botanist "Daude" something, barges in, trespassing into cargo. Already, I know something is going to go wrong, as this is the same person who barged into science in yesterdays Bagil round and proceeded to try to murder me over the chemical dispenser circuit board? Apparently unaware you can make them easily in unlocked circuit imprinters. Regardless, he leaves after talking to him. The guy with the insuls is finishing up his orders when I try to sell some other items I find around me in order to pay for the orders we have made. The same botanist comes back and proceeds to stand in the middle of the cargo shuttle and refuse to leave after multiple warnings to stop. I get frustrated with him, and throw a bluespace crystal at him to try and teleport him out, evaluating the risk accurately as there was mostly non space tiles around him (as admin stated non-negligible chance). He has already reached for items in the security locker when I was talking to him before the crystal throw. All crystals fail to land any teleport, and he proceeds to rush for the open security locker intended to be sold, and grabs what I believe to be a disabler and a flash. I rush out of the airlocks and we enter a stalemate between the doors. I initially grab for the disabler, however realising the shuttle walls reflect blasters putting myself into danger, I grab for one of the weapons I was going to use for my objective, the makarov pistol. No bullets hit except one in the airlock, and the stalemate continues. As per random chance, the newly joined HOS turns up and aids to arrest. Now that I can safely fire a disabler round without it reflecting into me, since he ran out into the main cargo area, the HOS and I disablered him. Unaware that the HOS is actively cuffing him, and knowing he is armed, potentially going to try and retaliate, I hastily grab the fire axe and cut him in his chest, with a single grab on the axe as to not apply large damage, in the rush of the situation. He is taken away by the HOS to the brig where he dies because of damages I am unaware of (apparently the arresters broke his ribs in the cell, not involved). I take him to medbay to be revived as a result and then I am contacted by an admin. I do not know what happened to him, but I witnessed a doctor attempting to revive him, and so I moved on.
Why you think you should be unbanned: This was not a violation of my probation. Proper escalation took place where non lethals were used initially to vacate him of an area he continued to trespass into twice. Lethals were then used to apply warning, reinforced by the fact that only one bullet hit intentionally. Knowing I could be easily vulnerable to a disabler round due to the reflection of the blasters bolt off of the side of the cargo shuttle, action had to be taken to try and save my own life in that situation. Unfortunately, I do not have immediate access to the round logs to try and obtain damage and possible chat logs to enforce my point as the round is possibly still active, and I cannot find it in the public logs.
References of good conduct: As previously stated in the probation, I have a reference to good conduct in the goonstation servers. Furthermore, I was trying to introduce some friends to the TG codebase who were new to the game in general. I aided them with science mainly, while someone else decided to go it alone as a cook.
Anything else we should know: Even if thief is half antag, I reserve the right to normally escalate situations in this case in reference to the escalation policy, where I
handle the conflict non-lethally whenever possible
, and after my non lethal ammunition runs out, I must try and think quickly to avoid dying, resorting to possibly lethal methods. My intention is clear, and was not to murder, represented by my swift taking of the person to medbay to be revived. In retrospect, I regret my decision to switch from non lethals to lethals however I believe in the situation it was required as I had no additional backup until later when the HOS arrived, when I switched back to non lethals in response. At the end of the situation, both parties came out healed and revived. I at least request a shorten of the ban in light of these details.
Last edited by Aspect102 on Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aspect102
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Byond Username: Aspect102

Re: [Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

Post by Aspect102 » #635160

It is recognised that a probation was enforced, and I encourage the reading of the previous appeal for context.
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Vekter
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:25 pm
Byond Username: Vekter
Location: Fucking around with the engine.

Re: [Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

Post by Vekter » #635185

The full ban reason:
Banned from the server permanently - Probation violation - As an acting captain thief (not a full antag), started a fight with a botanist who was blocking the cargo shuttle from leaving while asking why the they were selling the contents of various lockers. Started by throwing bluespace crystals at them, an act with a non-negligible chance of getting them spaced, then when they tried to defend themselves with a flash and disabler on the floor started shooting at them with a pistol, then when that ran out disablered them down. Finally, instead of getting them cuffed (the HoS was right there in a position to assist with that) they first beat the botanist into crit with a fireaxe before telling the HoS to take them away. This is not reasonable escalation for an issue that started with someone refusing to leave the cargo shuttle until a question was answered, nor is it within a thief's remit to kill people for indirectly obstructing them from working on their objective.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Aspect102
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Byond Username: Aspect102

Re: [Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

Post by Aspect102 » #635206

In response to the rest of the information in the ban reason from:
they first beat the botanist into crit with a fireaxe before telling the HoS to take them away. This is not reasonable escalation for an issue that started with someone refusing to leave the cargo shuttle until a question was answered, nor is it within a thief's remit to kill people for indirectly obstructing them from working on their objective.
I tie this back to
I hastily grab the fire axe and cut him in his chest, with a single grab on the axe as to not apply large damage, in the rush of the situation.
My choice to apply possibly quite lethal force with the fire axe is not unacknowledged, but in the little tools I had to work with, disabler being empty and no handcuffs on my person, I was not aware the HOS was already cuffing. This little damage to stun was enough time for me to realise that the HOS had finally cuffed the person. And to reiterate,
I take him to medbay to be revived as a result and then I am contacted by an admin. I do not know what happened to him, but I witnessed a doctor attempting to revive him, and so I moved on.
The possibility that the botanist would notice I am trying to sell items would compromise my position as a thief and expose me. This can be seen when I spoke with the insuls guy in the SM, and I saw a situation where the same botanist was pointing out the insuls guy taking insuls. To defend a fellow thief, I used my position as Acting Captain to give authorisation for him to take them. It was clear from that point on, that this botanist was suspicious to thieves and laid the precedent for the future events in the shuttle, as he was catching on even before this cargo dilemma. My position as a thief would be compromised otherwise.
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Thunder11
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Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:55 pm
Byond Username: Thunder12345
Github Username: Thunder12345
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: [Thunder12345] - Cargo shooting

Post by Thunder11 » #636178

There's three major issues with what happened here from an escalation standpoint.
  • You initiated the physical confrontation by throwing bluespace crystals at the botanist. There are a significant number of space tiles around the cargo shuttle that he could've been sent to if hit. In this situation, that makes thrown crystals for all practical purposes lethal force. This was not a reasonable way to begin a fight over someone refusing to get off the cargo shuttle.
  • Once he is finally stunned, you beat him into crit while the HoS is actively in the process of arresting him. There was absolutely no need to do this when security was already on the scene and entirely capable of detaining the botanist without further violence.
  • Once the botanist was both detained and in crit, as per escalation policy "the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist". There was no reason to believe he was an antagonist in this case. You neither saw to it personally that he was delivered to medbay, nor did you make it clear to the HoS that he was to be treated. This is not a sufficient effort to ensure he was treated.
Given the over-escalation issues above, I feel that your actions did constitute a breach of your probation. I'll be upholding this appeal, I suggest playing on another server and getting them to vouch for your good behaviour.
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