[YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

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toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

[YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by toemas » #639688

BYOND account: realthoman
Character name: Phillip Thomas
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 10080 minutes
Ban reason: After being attacked with a fireaxe, spent the majority of their round hunting FormorA, a player in which theyve already had metagrudging incidents. Claimed to be the one being attacked the whole shift on ahelps. This is banbaiting and metagrudging. This is the last warning on this behavior.
Time ban was placed: 2022-05-03 17:35:45
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 182549
Your side of the story: i did NOT attack this player or even interact with him in the round at all really, up until the point where he attacks ME. I was literally just standing around in medical when he walked up to me and stabbed me in the head with a fireaxe for no reason, then walked away. I dont even retaliate yet. A few minutes later, i am walking down the hallway, when i see him shoving an intern detective against a wall and trying to steal his baton. At this point, im a little irritated that hes picking on a new player, and remembering the dudes assault on me, i get into a little scuffle with him where i shove him a few times and try to baton him.
Its at this point where he says this:https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... nknown.png At this point im pretty pissed off at the dude, he has so far attacked me for no reason and then told me to kill myself for simply shoving him in retaliation. I sent him a few insults back with my PDA, then when i see him again in the halls i try to shovecuff him, and fail. i then attack him with a spear, then disengage. I continue to bump into him in hallways, he is carrying a body and chasing me around with it, trying to bodythrow me. I move down a Z level in the bar area and he chases down after me. i throw a spear at him. He throws the body at me. He wins the fight, and then proceeds to decapitate me and pocket my brain, effectively round removing me, despite the fact that he was the one who started the conflict. I adminhelped explaining the situation, and the admin ignores me. i adminhelp a SECOND time, and the admin responds, quotes the messages that i sent to the dude at me, telling me that my behavior is unacceptable(completely glossing over the fact that i didnt start the conflict at all) and even going as far as to accuse me of BREAKING RULE 8 because i pda'd "im gonna fuck you" to the guy after he told me to kys. im told by the admin that hes going to review the logs tomorrow. I log on tomorrow and im banned.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The dude literally instigated the conflict with me and attacked me for no reason, and for whatever reason, IM the one who gets banned for metagrudging, because i retaliated. this is mental gymnastics
References of good conduct:https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... _1.gif.gif

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/182 ... e=game.txt (these are the logs for that round)
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Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
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Re: [YBS] what the fuck dawg

Post by Pandarsenic » #639692

The actual encounter occurred in round 182520, not 182549, for reference, based on the provided speech logs
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YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
Byond Username: YBS

Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by YBS » #639712

Hey there Thoman, thanks for appealing.

We had a long conversation regarding this ticket last night so I am going to be citing the document I compiled this morning that, more or less, timestamps the encounters between yourself and FormorA - the target of your complaint.

It is relevant to know that FormorA is currently serving a ban of their own for metagrudging, baiting metagrudge behavior and breaking rule 1 - just so it's clear that everyone in involved has seen action fitting their history and actions in round.

Here is the trimmed encounter, pulled from raw logs including time of speech, attacks and pda messages(post-edit, I missed one line that Pandarsenic cited, above):
► Show Spoiler
Here is the issue. Your first report comes in and wasn't seen - for one reason or another. I was the only admin active at the time, and I'm not a machine. I get up and occasionally am afk even when I'm 'on'. I've never once ignored an ahelp for any reason.

That being said, you can see the transition of where you ahelp fire fire-axe hit - which is perfectly valid - to seeking revenge against Pan on your own. Not doing this would have resulted in a ruling completely in your favor, once I had seen the original ticket and responded accordingly, assuming you hadn't already attempted further counter escalation against the person you are having problems with.

Instead both of you choose to handle it ICly, which can be easily read as fringing into OOC with a real grudge against one another from points already passed.

What you need to understand isn't "I got hit with a fireaxe, reported it and now im banned."

It is, "I got hit with a fireaxe, and spent the rest of my living shift grudging and initiating conflict with the guy I felt slighted by." Including the PDA message.

If you had also not just come off of a 3 day ban for metagrudge conflict with the same person as of 5/2/22, I would have been more relaxed with both of you - but you both showed an in-game failure to understand how to avoid metagrudge conflict and poor, low-comm escalation routines.

When you know you are in this kind of situation and you have no healthy IC recourse, keeping a cooler head and waiting for intervention would have been the right call, or even taking the high road and avoiding further confrontation - let Pan dig their own grave. Instead I'm pulling apart two people, where they both have the history of administrative action to know better.

There is also the line that you have a problem managing your temper in a way that crosses over into IC, OOC and ahelps -which is a trend of behavior that brings the quality of the round down for everyone involved, especially yourself.

I want to see you take the time to figure out how, then come back to this server with a cooler head.

For that reason, I'm denying this appeal.
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Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
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Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by Tearling » #639716

Just for reference realthoman if you disagree with the admin's ruling you can request a headmin appeal.
toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by toemas » #639717

> It is, "I got hit with a fireaxe, and spent the rest of my living shift grudging and initiating conflict with the guy I felt slighted by." Including the PDA message.

its more like "some guy hit me with a fireaxe and then told me to kill myself so i think im going to attack him for it"
everything that i did was acceptable under escalation policy and i didnt break any rules.
this is bizarre because you even acknowledge that the dude was killbaiting me, but your still banning me anyway for retaliating in a conflict that i did not start. this is stupid. you are correct that i should have adminhelped the moment he attacked me, that would be the smart thing to do. but fighting back is NOT bannable behavior, it is not "metagrudging", and ahelping after the player round-removed me over a conflict HE started is NOT "ban-baiting"

>at this point this paints a picture that Thoman is actually the one initiating new escalations
yea a guy attacked me so i attacked him in retaliation. thats not "initiating new escalation"
>after claiming Pan is 'metagrudging him'
you literally just said in your own post that the guy is banned for metagrudging

i believe im being treated unfairly and i would like to request a head-admin review
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Mothblocks
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Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by Mothblocks » #639839

YBS wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:59 pm That being said, you can see the transition of where you ahelp fire fire-axe hit - which is perfectly valid - to seeking revenge against Pan on your own. Not doing this would have resulted in a ruling completely in your favor, once I had seen the original ticket and responded accordingly, assuming you hadn't already attempted further counter escalation against the person you are having problems with.
Emphasis mine. That doesn't seem to be what happened, is one of us confused?

You're an admin, so you have access to this: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 0/game.log

You can ctrl+f ADMINPRIVATE. Realthoman_ doesn't send any ahelp until after they are killed, which is supported by their initial ahelp:
hey this guy is metagrudging me he just randomly fireaxed me in the halls and then killed me when i retaliated can you ban him?
Realthoman does send two ahelps, but unless I'm mistaken (and feel free to point out if I am! Log diving is hard and confusing), they just seem to be two ahelps after they died.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by toemas » #639846

Mothblocks wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:58 pm Realthoman does send two ahelps, but unless I'm mistaken (and feel free to point out if I am! Log diving is hard and confusing), they just seem to be two ahelps after they died.
thank you mothblocks, this is correct

to summarize,
i got killbaited and metagrudged, retaliated, then got round removed over a conflict i did not start, and then banned for ahelping it
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YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
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Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by YBS » #639886

Mothblocks wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:58 pm
YBS wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:59 pm That being said, you can see the transition of where you ahelp fire fire-axe hit - which is perfectly valid - to seeking revenge against Pan on your own. Not doing this would have resulted in a ruling completely in your favor, once I had seen the original ticket and responded accordingly, assuming you hadn't already attempted further counter escalation against the person you are having problems with.
Emphasis mine. That doesn't seem to be what happened, is one of us confused?

You're an admin, so you have access to this: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 0/game.log

You can ctrl+f ADMINPRIVATE. Realthoman_ doesn't send any ahelp until after they are killed, which is supported by their initial ahelp:
hey this guy is metagrudging me he just randomly fireaxed me in the halls and then killed me when i retaliated can you ban him?
Realthoman does send two ahelps, but unless I'm mistaken (and feel free to point out if I am! Log diving is hard and confusing), they just seem to be two ahelps after they died.
Looks like I lost the script. Both ahelps seem to have happened after all events leading up until this point. Got this detail mixed up, from when answering the second ticket midround.
thomanthewise5404 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:20 pm to summarize,
i got killbaited and metagrudged, retaliated, then got round removed over a conflict i did not start, and then banned for ahelping it
Your summary is an issue.

The series of events is basically what I trimmed, then the two ahelps, in some kind of succession - which led into our long discussion. The entire time where I was attempting to talk to you about the retaliatory words and actions on your part, you got more and more heated with me that I wasn't just blasting Pan. I did not arbitrarily read the logs and decide "I guess I'll just punish Thoman too, he was being bad". FormarA had a counter-complaint against you that arose from the ahelp investigation that I found had valid results. You pursued Pan several minutes [5] after a single fire axe tap that had no follow up, comms or results from both of you, and decided to re-escalate. You are also the one with banning history for having meta-history with Pan in the first place.

I still find the claim against Pan valid as well.

You also having absolutely no claim to responsibility over your own actions in this exchange is a major concern regarding your appeal. Your entire argument against Pan is framed on the idea that Pan spent the shift harassing you, when in reality it was one singular moment, which led to you spending the shift dogging him.

If I have misread the actual happenings through the logs, I will amend the ban immediately, given evidence.
But you doubling down and trying to paint me like I just arbitrarily decided to dunk you isn't giving me any confidence.
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toemas
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Realthoman_

Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by toemas » #639893

YBS wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am Your entire argument against Pan is framed on the idea that Pan spent the shift harassing you
to my understanding, i never said this a single time in both the ticket and the appeal, what are you talking about? please re-read my appeal, i said that he was metagrudging and banbaiting me, which is verifiably true given that you JUST SAID that he was banned for it
YBS wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am FormarA had a counter-complaint against you that arose from the ahelp investigation that I found had valid results.
how is the complaint valid if the dude was intentionally trying to provoke the reaction from me? what is your reasoning here? your telling me that i can killbait people and then get them banned when they retaliate in a way that isnt to my liking?
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YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
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Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by YBS » #639938

thomanthewise5404 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:26 am
YBS wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am Your entire argument against Pan is framed on the idea that Pan spent the shift harassing you
to my understanding, i never said this a single time in both the ticket and the appeal, what are you talking about? please re-read my appeal, i said that he was metagrudging and banbaiting me, which is verifiably true given that you JUST SAID that he was banned for it
YBS wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am FormarA had a counter-complaint against you that arose from the ahelp investigation that I found had valid results.
how is the complaint valid if the dude was intentionally trying to provoke the reaction from me? what is your reasoning here? your telling me that i can killbait people and then get them banned when they retaliate in a way that isnt to my liking?
I slept on this and realized I'm framing a lot on the both of you being overly culpable for what in most cases, with any other players, would just be an IC issue.

If I take off the glasses that you two hate eachother and fight like cats, then reread the entire exchange, everything looks normal apart from the scathing speech. In light of this, I'm reducing your ban to a warning involving escalation, because I still find the way you repeatedly grudged with lethal attempts as poor in-game behavior.

This will result in your ban ending today as of 5:10 AM PST and being a note on your record. It reads as the following:

Poor escalation against FormorA, a subject of mutual metagrudge from prior tickets. By the time you're reading this you're free to rejoin.
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Mothblocks
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Re: [YBS]realthoman - what the fuck dawg

Post by Mothblocks » #639967

We're happy to see YBS lower this to a note, but from my interpretation of the logs, we've agreed that we will be removing the note as well.

While previously this was a ban baiting ban, the reasoning has now been changed to a note, and so this response is in reference to just that new note.
Poor escalation against FormorA, a subject of mutual metagrudge from prior tickets. By the time you're reading this you're free to rejoin.
It is true that Thoman should have chosen admin intervention when he got hit with the fire axe, especially if he suspects metagrudging. However, what you should do is different from what you can do. Thoman was explicitly provoked by this player, their choice to escalate directly instead is sympathizable. Being angry isn't any excuse to break the rules, of course, so did Thoman poorly escalate?

I don't think so.

From my reading of the logs, I have interpreted the situation as the following:

- Thoman and FormorA have some banter. Thoman doesnt really do anything to provoke FormorA, FormorA says "holy fuck you're just like willingly retarded" (unsure if this is directed at Thoman, but they're a few tiles away from each other)
- FormorA says "cope" after some banter from Thoman (which is not insulting at all really, just some smalltalk), and fire axes Thoman
- Thoman shoves them 2 minutes later, FormorA says "fuck off / im not / attacking you / chill"
- Thoman shoves him again
- They both get into a shove fight, until FormorA starts to combat mode baton, turning the fight lethal
- Thoman attempts to cuff FormorA, who (after being on the other end of more shoves) retaliates with a glass shard
- Thoman now starts to get lethal, using what appears to be a beer bottle, and is still trying to cuff Thoman. FormorA reacts with a surgical drill
- FormorA wins the fight, attacking them with a spear, surgical drill, and butchers cleaver
- At this point, Thoman ahelps, and YBS begins to look into it right away, and both are in constant contact
- Thoman is not revived, which would make sense considering by Thoman's account he was decapitated and had his brain pocketed

From this reading, we can see that FormorA not only was the first to initiate the fight with a fire axe, but also was responsible for the shoving match becoming lethal. Thoman is within their OOC rights to escalate upon this player in the manner they did, with this chain of events in mind.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

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