[thedragmeme] DurrHurrDurrHurr - Note appeal

[BrolyButterfingers]

I was told to jury-rig the ban template for this, so apologies if that doesn't work out well

BYOND account: DurrHurrDurrHurr

Character name: Broly Butterfingers

Ban type: Note

Ban length: N/A

Ban reason: (MRP) Was asked to tone back using language like "IT'S TIME TO SHIT AND PISS", claimed their use of this language was medically caused. As unfortunate as it is a medical excuse does not excuse you when an admin asks you to stop doing something.

Time ban was placed: 2022-06-24 01:25:20

Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel

Round ID in which ban was placed: 185448

Your side of the story: I have Tourette's Syndrome; this means that I have impulse-tics that I need to perform as part of the condition. Unlike the common understanding of Tourette's, most cases don't involve shouting/swearing/etc in public, and are nonverbal; most are simple motions and repetitions, some are actions. Some people type stuff and some people shout stuff. Depends on the person. I occasionally, when spawning into a game or starting doing something, type shit/piss/fart/time to <thing>/aaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAA. It's usually in my spawn office or the shuttle or arrivals hallway or whatever, so it doesn't bother anyone, but I've been doing it the entire 400+ hours I've played on Manuel and even if this note stands I'm going to keep doing it because if I could avoid doing it I would have a long time ago.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I oppose this note on a few grounds; firstly, there's nothing explicitly against the rules here. I guess you could make a stretch and call it anti-roleplay behaviour, but I don't think that's a very strong position as it's just a translation of a real-life quirk I have onto my character. Secondly, swearing isn't against the rules on /tg/. Excessive swearing I don't think is specifically against the rules on /tg/. Genetics has a mutation that does the exact same thing except force-speeches you every 20-40 seconds and is significantly more intrusive than the occasional instance of me doing it.

Here are some other rounds where I do it roundstart in case someone thinks I'm bullshitting

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/184 ... e=game.txt


https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/184 ... e=game.txt


https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/185 ... e=game.txt


https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/184 ... e=game.txt


I'm not trying to be a shitter or break anyone's roleplay or be an asshole, I just have a thing my condition says I need to type so I type it and then move on. I think it sucks to get a note for it, especially when a comedically dramatized form of my disorder is already present and obtainable in the game. I wanna play spacemen but have a defective brain that types fart sometimes. I think at worst this is a behavioural quirk of the characters I play but I don't see how it breaks roleplay rules or is something I need to "tone down". The fact that I've got more than 400 played hours before this even came up should say for itself how little of an actual issue it is.

EDIT: I should also add, it's like once every other round or so. I'm not running around shouting it every couple of minutes or anything.

[Drag]

I'm going to tackle this in serveral parts.

The first most pressing point I have to make is notes are not, nor will ever be, directly a punishment. Notes are utalized for several things, mostly to give other admins a context on your game history while they are investigating you. However we also use them to give you feedback as well. As a player you have a right to know what the admins are pointing out and what their thoughts on your behavior is. This is why notes are not allowed under admin conduct to be secret, except in very specific situations. Another pressing point that I think a lot of people forget is anytime an admin talks to you in a ticket that alone is enough justification for a note. I talk to a player about power gaming on MRP? Note. I ask a player to tone down the amount of times they do a thing? Note. If an admin dosent note it, that conversation for all intents and purposes didn't happen.

The note I placed was because I talked about two things in particular with you:
1. I asked you to make an attempt to reduce the amount of times you used the language specified in the note.
2. I alerted you to the fact a medical reason is not enough to bypass our rules.

I completely acknowledge your condition, however, I am not going to treat you any differently than I would any other player. The only thing I want you to do is try.

If I were to remove the note on the grounds you presented what kind of situation would this create? That if you claim to an admin that you have a medical condition you can bypass some of the rules? Then what? Are the admins supposed to make you send sensitive and personal proof that you do have this condition?

You are correct in both of your points that it's not against the rules and it's very infrequent. However I still asked that you made an attempt to reduce the amount of times comments like this occured. I also told you that your condition is not a free pass. Both of these points were noted officially in way that confirms I did in fact talk to you about them.

At the end of the day, I as an admin talked to a player. I left a note as a result. I will not be removing this note, however I will be willing to alter the wording if you find the current notes wording crude.

[BrolyButterfingers]

I'm going to tackle this in serveral parts.

The first most pressing point I have to make is notes are not, nor will ever be, directly a punishment. Notes are utalized for several things, mostly to give other admins a context on your game history while they are investigating you. However we also use them to give you feedback as well. As a player you have a right to know what the admins are pointing out and what their thoughts on your behavior is. This is why notes are not allowed under admin conduct to be secret, except in very specific situations. Another pressing point that I think a lot of people forget is anytime an admin talks to you in a ticket that alone is enough justification for a note. I talk to a player about power gaming on MRP? Note. I ask a player to tone down the amount of times they do a thing? Note. If an admin dosent note it, that conversation for all intents and purposes didn't happen.

The note I placed was because I talked about two things in particular with you:
1. I asked you to make an attempt to reduce the amount of times you used the language specified in the note.
2. I alerted you to the fact a medical reason is not enough to bypass our rules.

I completely acknowledge your condition, however, I am not going to treat you any differently than I would any other player. The only thing I want you to do is try.

If I were to remove the note on the grounds you presented what kind of situation would this create? That if you claim to an admin that you have a medical condition you can bypass some of the rules? Then what? Are the admins supposed to make you send sensitive and personal proof that you do have this condition?

You are correct in both of your points that it's not against the rules and it's very infrequent. However I still asked that you made an attempt to reduce the amount of times comments like this occured. I also told you that your condition is not a free pass. Both of these points were noted officially in way that confirms I did in fact talk to you about them.

At the end of the day, I as an admin talked to a player. I left a note as a result. I will not be removing this note, however I will be willing to alter the wording if you find the current notes wording crude.

I'm contesting that it's a rulebreak, or bad roleplay, or something worth noting, whatsoever; I don't think a real-world expression of Tourette's is at all roleplay-breaking or degrading to the roleplay environment considering that a MUCH more aggressive, intrusive and comedically dramatized variant is available as a game mechanic and occurs fairly regularly.

You can either ban me in the future for doing it or let it go, because telling me to try to do it less is like telling me not to try not to sneeze or cough. It's not going to happen, it's kind of insulting and it's ultimately a waste of breath. If it's not against the rules and it's very infrequent I don't see the necessity of the note at all. I don't think I did anything wrong and I think that the request to tone it down is overreaching to begin with. It should have remained unmentioned. I already made it more than four hundred hours of playtime before the first time it came up, which I think in itself shows it's not a problem. I can assure you I've been doing it the entirety of my time on the server.

[Timberpoes]

As a refresher for ALL parties to focus the discussion, the current guidance on appealing notes is available here.

On appealing notes
The following snippets are useful:

Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if ... [t]he note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.

Precedent for placing the note
This wasn't a numbered rule break and probably falls under that broad MRP discretion relating to "the quality of the roleplay server" I personally pulled out oh so often in the past.

That discretion also isn't written anywhere, but it definitely exists. A number of not-rule-breaking behaviours have been noted before under its umbrella. There's even an instance of it being upheld on appeal. For example, a previous appeal where I requested headmin review of my own appeal and decision, which ended with the ruling of:

... we do agree it is noteworthy due to the fact that giving areas these kinds of low-quality names is distracting and brings down the MRP atmosphere.

Notes as a punishment
The above deleted post was a peanut post by BONERMASTER. It highlighted a certain point that honestly falls broadly into policy, but that I think bears mentioning. As a result (with Rave's blessing) I've removed the forum warning related to it as a one-time exception, since I'm also intending to cover the subject matter myself.

The first most pressing point I have to make is notes are not, nor will ever be, directly a punishment.

I think it's important that the headmins be seen to acknowledge publicly the idea that notes like this can and sometimes do operate as a direct punishment. Our own note appeal guidelines don't shy away from the idea that "... we do recognize that [a note's] existence can seem like a black mark on the player" - This applies fully within the context of placing notes for issues around what is effectively a special unwritten rule of the RP servers and whether this note in the unique context it was placed "... is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes."

Closing thoughts
Appeals like this can quickly get out of hand with irrelevancies. As one of three people tasked with making the final call, I humbly request a focus on whether the note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes, since its factual accuracy does not appear in dispute.

This is going to involve a lot of subjective discussion. I will briefly put a refresher on peanut policy:

... players can post in a thread regarding something they weren't involved in, IF IT IS TO BRING UP/POINT TO/HIGHLIGHT a rule, precedent, or piece of evidence that was missed that is relevant to the situation ... Reminder that this applies to uninvolved admins except Headmins.

Which means I expect the peanut post to be the primary battleground of everyone posting their takes, and not the appeal itself unless it falls squarely within peanut policy.

[Drag]

Right, my assertion that notes arnt directly a punishment was indeed wrong and worded poorly. Notes are more of an indirect way to guide the decision making process of the admin team, which is why having a poor note history dosent bode well for a player.

As for if the contents of the notes are harsh: I absolutely do not think it is harsh. The first half was me asking you make an attempt to reduce the used language, and the second was noting your condition and that I've mentioned to you that it is not a free pass. Is it possible that the note is worded a little funny and could benefit from clarifying language? Absolutely. My thought process is absolutely obtuse and what makes sense to me could confuse others.

[Drag]

Additionally I do have a question:

What is the trigger for this tic?

Is it hearing "Welcome to the station crew, enjoy your stay"? If so that confuses me, the reason why this came to my attention at all was because you took over another player as a split personality and the language you used made them uncomfortable. Does it occur when you take over a mob? That also confuses me because (I will have to double check this) when you took over a mob for a nukie roll that very same round you didn't appear to have a tick. I'm trying to understand what the cause is, so the note can be altered in a way that I can link this conversation so future admins can gain the context they need for it.

[BrolyButterfingers]

Additionally I do have a question:

What is the trigger for this tic?

Is it hearing "Welcome to the station crew, enjoy your stay"? If so that confuses me, the reason why this came to my attention at all was because you took over another player as a split personality and the language you used made them uncomfortable. Does it occur when you take over a mob? That also confuses me because (I will have to double check this) when you took over a mob for a nukie roll that very same round you didn't appear to have a tick. I'm trying to understand what the cause is, so the note can be altered in a way that I can link this conversation so future admins can gain the context they need for it.

It's largely when "starting a task" but like most tics it's not internally consistent (which is also why I don't do it at the start of every single round). I do it occasionally when sitting down at my computer and opening discord, when starting a game, or something like that; less often when starting a major project in a round or game as well (like a construction project). It's largely the transition from doing nothing to committing myself to a meaningful amount of time at something.

[Drag]

Additionally I do have a question:

What is the trigger for this tic?

Is it hearing "Welcome to the station crew, enjoy your stay"? If so that confuses me, the reason why this came to my attention at all was because you took over another player as a split personality and the language you used made them uncomfortable. Does it occur when you take over a mob? That also confuses me because (I will have to double check this) when you took over a mob for a nukie roll that very same round you didn't appear to have a tick. I'm trying to understand what the cause is, so the note can be altered in a way that I can link this conversation so future admins can gain the context they need for it.

It's largely when "starting a task" but like most tics it's not internally consistent (which is also why I don't do it at the start of every single round). I do it occasionally when sitting down at my computer and opening discord, when starting a game, or something like that; less often when starting a major project in a round or game as well (like a construction project). It's largely the transition from doing nothing to committing myself to a meaningful amount of time at something.

Okay, that's completely fair. Second question: I have seen some people express their concerns and questions why this tic is carried through in game. Are there alternatives you could use? Such as alt tabbing into a notepad. I'm trying to get a full feel for what the limits are and what can be negotiated.

[BrolyButterfingers]

Additionally I do have a question:

What is the trigger for this tic?

Is it hearing "Welcome to the station crew, enjoy your stay"? If so that confuses me, the reason why this came to my attention at all was because you took over another player as a split personality and the language you used made them uncomfortable. Does it occur when you take over a mob? That also confuses me because (I will have to double check this) when you took over a mob for a nukie roll that very same round you didn't appear to have a tick. I'm trying to understand what the cause is, so the note can be altered in a way that I can link this conversation so future admins can gain the context they need for it.

It's largely when "starting a task" but like most tics it's not internally consistent (which is also why I don't do it at the start of every single round). I do it occasionally when sitting down at my computer and opening discord, when starting a game, or something like that; less often when starting a major project in a round or game as well (like a construction project). It's largely the transition from doing nothing to committing myself to a meaningful amount of time at something.

Okay, that's completely fair. Second question: I have seen some people express their concerns and questions why this tic is carried through in game. Are there alternatives you could use? Such as alt tabbing into a notepad. I'm trying to get a full feel for what the limits are and what can be negotiated.

I usually don't realize I'm doing it until after it's done. When you have tics for your entire life your brain tends to filter out the fact that you're performing a lot of them because it's not really useful information, and when you tic multiple times per minute you wouldn't be able to focus on tasks if you were paying attention to all of them.

[BrolyButterfingers]

According to an admin in the peanut thread I apparently don't even do this nearly as much as I thought I did; they said 6 or 7 times since the start of 2022, though they probably missed a variant or two so maybe a dozen times this year? Maybe a touch more than that? Usually at the start of a round or on the latejoin shuttle/arrival hallway, where there aren't even people around, I'd assume. I just don't understand how this has a severity or frequency that requires admin intervention and guidance of any kind. I think the overall rarity of the event, with the context that it's not voluntary, makes a "tone it down" unjustifiably harsh, especially since it doesn't break any specific rules (or even toe the line on them). I'm not running around regularly doing it in the hallways, or shouting fortnite gaming constantly over the radio.

[Drag]

Okay I don't have any more questions yet, but I have decided to take a new approach. After the posting of this appeal behind the scenes the admin team has debated this topic for quite a few hours. It's quite literally a civil war for lack of a better term. On one side we have what I'm going to call the rule purist admins, who agree with the note. I as an admin asked you to do something, so therefore "If an admin tells you to stop doing something, you should probably stop doing it." On the other hand are the rule bender admins, who do not agree with the note on the grounds this is a special case and "we already make exemptions anyways, look at naming policy".

I am on the side of what I like to call "Drags stupid girl brain", what is this means is I find value in all perspectives and can change my mind after having a discussion on a decision made. (I stan the forums for this reason).

I have come to the conclusion that both perspectives I have mentioned are correct. This case is small enough that an exception can be made, however I'm not going to treat you any differently than any other player by opting to completely remove the note. For this reason I propose the following alteration of the note:

Talked with the player after they mentioned they had a medical condition. Reminded the player that a medical condition is not an excuse for larger rule breaks such as grief or randomly attacking other players. For more context see (link to this appeal thread).

[BrolyButterfingers]

Okay I don't have any more questions yet, but I have decided to take a new approach. After the posting of this appeal behind the scenes the admin team has debated this topic for quite a few hours. It's quite literally a civil war for lack of a better term. On one side we have what I'm going to call the rule purist admins, who agree with the note. I as an admin asked you to do something, so therefore "If an admin tells you to stop doing something, you should probably stop doing it." On the other hand are the rule bender admins, who do not agree with the note on the grounds this is a special case and "we already make exemptions anyways, look at naming policy".

I am on the side of what I like to call "Drags stupid girl brain", what is this means is I find value in all perspectives and can change my mind after having a discussion on a decision made. (I stan the forums for this reason).

I have come to the conclusion that both perspectives I have mentioned are correct. This case is small enough that an exception can be made, however I'm not going to treat you any differently than any other player by opting to completely remove the note. For this reason I propose the following alteration of the note:

Talked with the player after they mentioned they had a medical condition. Reminded the player that a medical condition is not an excuse for larger rule breaks such as grief or randomly attacking other players. For more context see (link to this appeal thread).

I can live with this note revision. I still contest the idea that this was severe enough to require intervention at all but this revision is enough of a stepdown/reframing that I don't see much reason to try to argue for a full removal past it. The specific language that bothered me is gone and the note itself sounds less negative overall.

[Drag]

Unless MrMelbert, Timber, and Mothblocks have anything to add I consider this situation resolved, I will edit this note when I can.

[BrolyButterfingers]

Someone pointed out to me on Discord:

A future reading of the note could be interpreted as me having engaged in larger rulebreaks and then using my medical condition as a defense; I think some more exculpatory language clarifying that it was specifically just random swearing might be necessary so that the context is properly captured and not misinterpreted.

[Drag]

Someone pointed out to me:

A future reading of the note could be interpreted as me having engaged in larger rulebreaks and then using my medical condition as a defense; I think some more exculpatory language clarifying that it was specifically just some random swearing might be necessary.

I'm struggling to word this thought in a non overtly Dragbrain way, I am open to suggestions

[BrolyButterfingers]

Uhh, probably something like "Player was approached after shouting unprompted non-rulebreaking obscenities as a split personality. Explained they had a medical condition and that it was an infrequent but involuntary occurrence. While initially judged as degrading to the roleplay environment, an exception has been made due to general infrequency, minor intrusive nature and specific context, but the player was informed that their condition would not be an excusable justification for major rulebreaks or griefing if they occurred in the future".

[Drag]

New proposal:

After shouting obscenities with little to no other interaction as a split personality talked with the player about making attempts to raise roleplay quality. Player explained they have a medical condition, an exemption for these such cases have been given. However, the player was informed that their condition would not be an excusable justification for major rulebreaks or griefing if they occurred in the future. For more context see (link to this thread)

[BrolyButterfingers]

I can tolerate that I guess.

There are a fair number of people I talked to who have been pushing me to request a full removal regardless and to be honest while I generally feel that way as well I don't personally have the energy to do that; I'm alright with this revised note as the final outcome, but if there are any admins/headmins/whoever is actually allowed to post in this thread that feel enough of a way about it to argue further or just want to give a supporting/opposing position I wouldn't be opposed to that, though I think the peanut rules are pretty restrictive in that respect.

[Drag]

You are absolutely welcome to request headmin review, however my current stance is "We discussed it so I noted it"

[Timberpoes]

As an opening explanation, the reason this behaviour was an issue is because the incident resulted from a split personality scenario. Saying phrases like SHIT AND PISS as sort of pseudo-madlibs is common NRP shitter behaviour when attempting to grief, and doing this while controlling someone else's body is significantly more likely to result in an ahelp on our RP servers than saying it to yourself in a corner of an empty room.

The RP servers have a greater expectation of player behaviour and conduct than the other servers.

Mix the two together and you have an ideal blend for a storm in a bottle.

As for formally resolving this appeal:
DurrHurr^2 reached out to me personally via DMs to further discuss this in my capacity as one of the headmin triumvirate. Due to the nature of this topic including sensitive IRL factors, I decided to allow this against standard procedure of taking things to the forums.

Over a solid hour of discussions, common ground was established. I then brought the rest of the headmin team and Drag into the tail end of this process in a group conversation with DurrHurr^2.

As a result of group discussions the headmin team, Drag and DurrHurr^2 are all satisfied with placing a note with the following wording:

Has a Tourette's-esque condition that may cause them to blurt out the kind of phrases considered NRP like PISS and SHIT AND PISS. Has requested understanding from the admin team about this when exercising their discretion to handle this sort of incident, has and will continue to make efforts to avoid putting themselves in situations where this may negatively impact other players.

This does not carve out an exception, but seeks to offer a fair and balanced representation on behalf of the player should they attract admin attention for this again.

The player has agreed to take steps (such as not taking SSD prompts or split personalities) to mitigate causing scenarios where other players are likely to be negatively impacted or view this as attempted NRP shitter behaviour.

This is not overturning Drag's decision or note and represents the combined output of all parties involved discussing and putting their minds together to resolve a difficult and sensitive matter to the satisfaction of all involved.