RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

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Nope22
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:21 am
Byond Username: Nope22

RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #651977

b]BYOND account:[/b] Nope22

Character name: Christopher Pribe

Ban type:Note

Ban length: Note

Ban reason: -- warned against unfair punishments after a single shove from CMO during an altercation between themselves, QM, and CMO in security lead to them gulagging the CMO, initially with the intention to gulag for 700 points and only dropping it when urged to do so by the Captain, then dropping it to 400.

Time ban was placed: 2022-09-11 05:24:23

Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil

Round ID in which ban was placed: 190263

Your side of the story: Explain what happened in your own words. Going to try and keep this was precise and on point as I can. Shift starts, I get assigned to the cargo officer, I go gear up and come back to seeing a fellow officer having been a big doofus and left the locker and the gear scattered around the security outpost, I open the door to try and put all the equipment back in. The Quartermaster sees all the GAMER gear and slips inside and tries to nab one, I shove him down and just try and usher him out the door, usual stuff.

He fights back by shoving, still not a big problem, not going to arrest him for that when all of a sudden he then pulls out his Telebaton and uses it on me, grabs and starts throwing me into a wall and resists retaliation from my stun baton by using the hand teleporter, it didn't work out. He gets cuffed and brigged for 3-4ish minutes I can't remember the exact one of that, I take the TP because he used in the pursuit of a crime and really had no reason to have it. Fast forward until he gets out, I'm in the main security office in the brig minding my own business when the CMO out of all people shows up with the QM in tow, at this point I had an idea about what roughly about to happen but still did nothing as he ordered the AI to open the door, sprints in and instantly table shoves me with further attempts to do so with the Quartermaster behind him once again employing his stunning telebaton on an officer.

Thankfully the warden sees this assault and assist me in getting both of these guys in cuffs, as the QM is now a repeated offender in attacking security with his "self defence" weapon and the CMO via his own actions is now an accomplice and as such is deserving of every punishment that is to be applied to the QM did in his assault, I go to gulag him for 700 points, Captain words me down to 400-500 which I agree given he is the head honcho and he agrees with it, CMO is gulaged and that should have been the end of it. Except he admin helps and despite how many times I attempted to apply the situation to Randomly Evil that the chief medical officer aiding and abetting another person is guilty of whatever crime they commit and thus deserving of punishment thought Gulaging a person who not only came to the brig away from his own department, asks the AI to open the doors and initiated the escalation was over the line and no longer an IC issue.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I know the space law section of the wiki has that section of if you try and apply it in ooc you'll get laughed at so it is an IC issue, so what I do not get is how this is different. the QM I assumed as much gave the CMO the usual security is oppressing me you have to help to get him to tag along with his attack, they start the conflict, end up losing then admin help about getting IC punishment for it, I was even asked to quote the specific laws he broke that could merit the amount of points I put him in there. Assault on an officer, an accomplice to a repeated offender, AOE clear and cut says 500 points is the justified amount but it apparently went over the line oocly. This also does not include the part where the CMO revenge murders me on the shuttle because he had to serve time.

Image
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References of good conduct: It's a note.
Last edited by Nope22 on Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Pandarsenic » #651990

For reference, I went to a gulag and did a bit of mining. Without optimizing heavily, I got 684 points in right about 8 minutes, including the time it took to figure out I had to smelt my sheets manually, bring them to the stacker, and then claim them from the wall console.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
SkeletalElite
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 pm
Byond Username: SkeletalElite
Github Username: SkeletalElite

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by SkeletalElite » #652005

Relevant Policy
Security Policy wrote: 5. Lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig.

This is up to the discretion of the security player. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armory, in the armory, or leaving it.

If 2 players are considered a mob, any non lethal punishment would be more lenient than the rules allow.
Nope22
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:21 am
Byond Username: Nope22

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #652007

I do not believe the gulag timer nor the lethal force policy has much to do with the matter as it pretty much boils down to a two-sided issue of one being that I gulag this guy for table shoving me which is ridiculous as that would be like gulaging the clown for slipping you with a banana vs he got gulag for aiding and abetting a dude who 30 seconds ago just got let out of prison for attacking/stunning an officer with a telebaton who then proceeded to do in again in the security office no less, if I truly wanted to I could have thrown the book at him by following space law to the t and keeping him in there for well over 1500 points for major trespass and resisting arrest, obviously would have been overkill. He did the crime, he does the time, it's nobody fault but your own if you have to end up facing the same rap sheet of the guy you were helping.
RandomlyEvil
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:37 pm
Byond Username: RandomlyEvil

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by RandomlyEvil » #652102

Hey there,
I've spent a good amount of time looking into and discussing this with adminbus and I still feel that there's something missing here that sparks the instant gulag sentence you placed on CMO, and I'll go into that in (great) detail, but I also want to outright ask if there's something else that played into this? I'll be the first to admit that I'm unfamiliar with Sybil as I don't spend a great deal of time there, so I lack the same understanding of the people, culture, relationships, etc as I have for Terry. So, what can you tell me that justifies this incident, which as near as I can tell through discussion in tickets and reading the logs, shows the person least involved in any of this not only receiving the harshest sentence, but being the only one being sentenced?

That asked, below is what I'm trying to get to align and make sense.
The CMO arrives outside of brig with QM and tries to get your attention, which goes unanswered. He then asks AI to open the door and shoves you. This much, I think, is clear and there's no confusion there.
However, that shove is the end of the CMO's actions against you (or anyone else) in this whole interaction. QM did attack you with a stun baton at that point, at which time you and Warden both reacted, understandably, to return the stun until both QM and CMO were subdued. In CMO's case, they do nothing more than speak for the rest of this exchange after the shove.

-After you and Warden stun CMO, handcuff them, and strip them, you looted CMO's baton (which was, at no point in the exchange, used against you)
-While QM is the one who, at this point, already has a 'history', you stun them a total of once right after they stunned and shoved you, eventhough they are the one attacking you, and then focus solely on CMO for the entire rest of the exchange. QM, in all of this, is handcuffed, stripped, and then, and this is one of the key points that sticks out, told to go back to Cargo (note that QM is told this BEFORE the debate over timing with Cap even occurs). How can you justify giving CMO a sentence equal to that of the criminal he was "aiding and abetting" when you did not punish that other person?
-When asking what Warden did with QM, instead of demanding punishment for the person that CMO was, apparently, aiding and abetting, the response was that the Warden should have 'at least taken his baton' vs demanding that the one person who was the "criminal" in this whole ordeal face the punishment that you are so insistent is appropriate per space law.
-Additionally, you gave little to no context to the person you were actually detaining at first (arguably none, if I take your comment of "gulag" as a statement to the Warden vs the CMO), but felt it appropriate to announce on Sec comms that you were "gulagging the CMO for being a dipshit". Also noting you DON'T mention QM in your announcement on Sec comms, only the CMO which raises some question as well.
-When asked for reasoning by Captain, you state CMO broke into brig to try to mug you.
CMO didn't break in, they had the AI open the door, still dubious I agree, particularly when paired with the shove, so I can understand, given the context you had at the time, that breaking in to attack you could potentially initially appear the case at THAT moment. However the lack of any further action beyond speaking from the CMO makes repeating this as the reasoning to Cap some minutes later seem like an exaggeration, in my opinion.
Cap responds initially with "5 minutes?", which you ignore and instead tell the CMO 'shut up dumbass' and stun them twice, eventhough they've been stripped and handcuffed and, again, have made no move to do anything but speak. In response to this, cap asks you what the fuck, and then you...stun them? For some reason. (Honestly I don't even know what to make of this)
Cap then suggests 7 minutes. Which you again ignore. After some hesitation (again, he just got stunned for seemingly no reason and you seem hellbent on gulag even against his advice, understandable confusion on Cap's behalf here) Cap again suggests "just prison them". All of this you ignore, and originally set them up to be sent to gulag for 700 points, with a comment of "think about it before you attack an officer next time shitlord"
After MORE hesitation from the Captain, you drop it to 400, and sent CMO to gulag while Cap is STILL clearly disagreeing with the sentencing, suggesting 150 points only seconds before you activate the teleporter and send CMO to the prison camp, followed immediately by "at most".

Your response to the ticket was immediately excessively hostile towards the CMO, also stating that he spam table shoved you (I found no evidence of this, only the single shove), then told me that if you're an accomplice to a crime, you're always liable to get the same treatment as the criminal, which in this case was...nothing? Again, QM was stripped, handcuffed, and sent on his way WITH the weapon he used against you not once, but twice at this point.

Things I'm also taking into account here:
Revs - Revs were called out/confirmed shortly after CMO was gulagged (~4 minutes later is when you seemingly react to the news), so I can understand this making things even more complex for both Heads of Staff and Sec, but am noting there's a clear break here between the point that you teleport CMO to gulag, and you reacting to Revs being confirmed.
Security takes a lot of shit. I know this. Its one thing that seems universal. And it's why, had the CMO acted beyond their two actions, had CMO made any kind of threat to you prior to asking the AI to open the door, had you also sentenced QM either at that time or shown any attempt to do so in the time following before Revs were called, had Cap or Warden agreed with the sentencing (Warden clearly didn't seem to feel the same as he let the actual aggressor go, and Cap spent a good amount of time trying to convince you of a different sentence), or had there been clear intent to do you harm, I could understand the punishment but none of these things happened.

Additional things of note in this whole ordeal:
As near as I can tell via logs and from speaking with QM, QM had been given access to the Cargo sec locker and it was unlocked for them. While this would have been hard for you to verify, given the secoffs in question died early in the round, you made no attempt to question this and instantly assumed the worst of QM and carried this belief through the entire round, which then colored all of the events that followed.
You took the gear and hand tele from the QM (noting in the ticket that 'he isnt meant to have it', though I still fail to see any reasoning to this as QM has arguable the most use of it to teleport crates). From QM's perspective, this was an invalid arrest, they resisted, wound up getting arrested, lost their items, and did their time. They were understandably salty and relayed that a secoff had looted their shit to CMO when they run into each other in front of Brig. There was no lynch mob forming party or call out for who wanted to storm in and 'mug' you. It was one head of staff hearing that Security had looted another head of staff. Is there missing context in this? Yes, absolutely, but the point to keep in mind here is that this is the information CMO was working with when entering the brig. (Understand here that by giving you the benefit of understanding that from your POV you saw a former prisoner and another person entering brig, I'm giving that same benefit of understanding to CMO who saw it as approaching a secoff that had unrightfully stolen an item from another head of staff. Does it make his approach right? No, but at any point had you stopped to question CMO on their presence or listened to them given they were trying to speak to you, even after you had them stripped and handcuffed, you'd have a chance to actually get that information at the time.)
In terms of being attacked, you took a grand total of 7.5 damage and that was ONLY in the initial encounter with the QM that CMO was no part of at all.
I also want to point out that this also isn't a case of 2 on 1 as the Warden was right there with you (potentially more, though logs make it difficult track if they are not doing anything or speaking at the time), so painting this in the picture of you getting mugged doesn't sit well either, as there was at least two armed members of security vs an unarmed CMO(while CMO had a baton I see no indication he drew it and certainly didn't use it) and a QM with a baton.

While it's great that you can quote space law (genuine kudos for actually reading it), it is not a shield to hide behind as a means to punish a person vs a crime and I fail to see how you can apply a "Assault of an officer" for a single shove, nor "Aiding and abetting" given you failed to prosecute the other person in this scenario. Had you also processed QM, then yes, I could see an argument that this could apply, however what this all genuinely appears to be is you using IC means to target a specific player who had minimal involvement in a second infraction by a different person. The time between "AI open" and the shove is 6 seconds (given I've found no log of how long it took AI to open the door, I'll estimate that I think it's safe to say at least a few seconds here is waiting for that to occur). Those two events spanning a total of 6 seconds has you immediately deadset on a gulag sentence, originally for 700 points? How is this not an unfair punishment?

Lastly, and this goes back to your initial reaction to the ahelp. Upon me asking you what happened with the CMO, you immediately hostile regarding the CMO and tell me that you were "hoping" he would ahelp the situation. This tells me one of two things (potentially both). Either you also felt the sentence was unjust and worthy of an ahelp, which certainly does not speak in your favor in regards to this appeal. Or, alternatively and more in line with everything else that I'm seeing based on the ticket and the logs, you have a personal issue with the player and used IC means to punish them. Again, this does not help you, and only serves to strengthen by belief that you appear to be trying to hide behind Space Law as a means to punish another player.

If you feel that note's wording is unnecessarily harsh, I'd be open to hearing what you think may be more appropriate even though I think it is exceptionally benign given all of the above, but at this time, I'm not inclined to remove it, as I believe it is something worthy of having record of for future reference.

As a footnote, to your comment of the CMO returning to kill you later, as I told you in the ticket, this was handled separately and the CMO faced the repercussions for that action.



Relevant logs from the point CMO starts trying to get your attention, through Cap's comment immediately after teleporting CMO. Logs filtered for Ckeys medeelel18, nope22, chimpston, valermagister, and overuseddart and the location of brig. I will note that I cut out unrelated/out of range lines in an attempt to clarify the events, but full logs can be found at https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nd-190263/:

Code: Select all

[2022-09-11 03:34:10.941] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "oi" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:11.567] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "yeah." (Brig (117,166,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:12.520] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "who did it again?" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:12.525] TCOMMS: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) [Security] (spans:  ) "Who did it again?" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:14.798] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "christopher" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:15.342] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "he took the teleporter and all." (Brig (117,166,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:20.154] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "which I was using for crates." (Brig (117,166,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:24.803] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "he's a bit antisocial." (Brig (117,166,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:24.984] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "BRUH" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:28.955] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "mentally ill even." (Brig (117,166,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:30.896] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CHRISTOPHER" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:38.299] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "ai open" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:38.314] TCOMMS: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) [Common] (spans:  command_headset ) "Ai open" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:41.952] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "yeah so says the sperg who instantly attacked me because i caught you tresspassing" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:44.258] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "shut up and get out" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:44.266] ATTACK: [table] shoved Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) with onto the table (table) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (116,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:47.463] ATTACK: Chimpston/(Cocainus) stun attacked Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:47.885] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "look" (Security Office (115,175,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:50.399] ATTACK: Chimpston/(Cocainus) shoved Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:51.831] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Chimpston/(Cocainus) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (117,175,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:53.962] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) leg sweeped Chimpston/(Cocainus) (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:55.844] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "your office" (Security Office (115,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:56.413] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) stun attacked Chimpston/(Cocainus) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:59.477] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "stop" (Security Office (115,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:59.570] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) stun attacked Chimpston/(Cocainus) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:59.761] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "still has my shit" (Security Office (115,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:00.131] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (115,175,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:01.544] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) attempted to handcuff Chimpston/(Cocainus) (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:01.942] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "WOAH" (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:03.251] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:03.288] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "WHAT THE FUCK" (Security Office (114,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:04.585] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) handcuffed Chimpston/(Cocainus) (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:05.339] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) grabbed (Krav Maga) Chimpston/(Cocainus) (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:05.340] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) grabbed Chimpston/(Cocainus) passive grab (NEWHP: 95)  (Security Office (115,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:05.378] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "warden." (Security Office (115,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:05.445] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I DIDNT DO NOTHING" (Security Office (114,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:08.800] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) attempted to handcuff Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:08.844] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) attempted to handcuff Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (115,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:09.911] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "ARE YOU NUTS?" (Security Office (114,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:11.688] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "gulag" (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:11.785] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) handcuffed Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:11.835] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) handcuffed Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (115,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:12.138] SAY: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) "grab the cmo" (Security Office (115,174,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:13.713] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "both these shitters" (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:15.091] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) grabbed Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:18.468] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "warden." (Security Office (119,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:19.437] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "YO WHAT THE FUCK" (Brig (106,168,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:22.985] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) is stripping Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the medical satchel. (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:23.202] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) is pickpocketing Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the crew pinpointer (left) (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:23.306] EMOTE: Chimpston/(Cocainus) stares. (Brig (109,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:23.476] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) is pickpocketing Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the emergency oxygen tank (right) (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:24.728] EMOTE: Chimpston/(Cocainus) stares. (Brig (109,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:26.747] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) has stripped Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the medical satchel. (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:27.013] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) has stripped Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the crew pinpointer. (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:27.271] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) has stripped Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) of the emergency oxygen tank. (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:27.779] SAY: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) "you have" (Brig (108,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:29.859] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "what." (Brig (109,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:30.566] SAY: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) "nothing better to do?" (Brig (108,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:38.079] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) is putting the emergency oxygen tank on Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:39.006] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) has put the emergency oxygen tank on Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt). (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:42.258] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) is stripping Chimpston/(Cocainus) of the satchel. (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:44.797] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "gulaging the CMO for being a dipshit." (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:44.803] TCOMMS: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) [Security] (spans:  ) "Gulaging the CMO for being a dipshit." (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:46.303] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) has stripped Chimpston/(Cocainus) of the satchel. (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:47.462] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) is putting the medical satchel on Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:49.253] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) has put the medical satchel on Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt). (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:49.747] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "can you." (Brig (102,162,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:50.280] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "what" (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:50.287] TCOMMS: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) [Security] (spans:  command_headset ) "What" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (116,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:55.169] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "what" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:56.721] EMOTE: Chimpston/(Cocainus) stares down at the restraints. (Brig (102,162,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:59.758] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "HE IS GULAGGING ME" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:00.708] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "Secoff" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:01.068] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "FOR FUCKING" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:02.362] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "he broke in with the QM to try and fucking mug me" (Brig (99,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:02.866] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "TRYING TO GET" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:03.386] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THE" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:04.600] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "reasoning?" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:07.487] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "uhh" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:08.474] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "MAN WHAT THE FUCK" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:12.136] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THAT IS A LIE" (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:13.016] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "BRO" (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:14.952] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "5 minutes?" (Brig (99,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:16.054] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I WASNT EVEN IN THE QM" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:16.221] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "you literally" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:17.058] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "OFFICE" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:17.513] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "asked the ai" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:17.618] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "NO" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:19.185] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THIS IS BULLSHIT" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:19.430] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "to open the door" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:20.783] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "to attack me" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:21.492] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "YEAH" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:22.294] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "AND YOU" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:22.709] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "shut up dumbass" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:22.807] EMOTE: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) laughs. (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:23.864] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "TOOK THE FUCKING" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:24.625] SAY: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) "no more crime" (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:24.899] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:26.057] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CARGO TECHNICIANS" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:27.544] SAY: Chimpston/(Cocainus) "What." (Brig (102,162,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:29.062] SAY: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) "go back to cargo" (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:29.283] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) shaken Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:29.734] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "what the fuck" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:30.388] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I LITERALLY HAVE ACSESS HERE" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:31.129] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) grabbed (Krav Maga) Chimpston/(Cocainus) (NEWHP: 95)  (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:31.130] ATTACK: Valer Magister/(Monad Meyer) grabbed Chimpston/(Cocainus) passive grab (NEWHP: 95)  (Brig (102,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:32.401] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "cap" (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:34.089] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "he" (Brig (97,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:34.760] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "is" (Brig (98,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:35.351] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:36.244] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "delusional" (Brig (98,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:37.142] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "ow" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:39.544] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "fucking" (Brig (98,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:39.546] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "SEE" (Brig (97,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:41.392] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) shaken Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:42.352] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) shaken Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:44.128] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "7 minutes" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:46.000] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "HJE" (Brig (99,167,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:47.568] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "I dont know" (Brig (98,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:48.039] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "IS" (Brig (98,175,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:49.004] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) grabbed Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (98,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:49.184] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "Uhh" (Brig (97,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:49.679] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "DELUSIONAL" (Brig (98,172,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:52.299] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CAP" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:53.173] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "Im fucking hungry" (Brig (97,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:53.673] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:56.526] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) stun attacked Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:57.163] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "so uh" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:58.506] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CAP" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:59.597] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THIS GUY" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:59.649] ATTACK: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) shaken Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Brig (99,168,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:59.916] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "just" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:01.468] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "IS DELUSIONAL" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:02.346] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "prison them?" (Brig (98,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:03.854] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "AS FUCK" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:04.447] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "NO" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:05.665] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "WHAT THE FUCK" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:08.452] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "GULAG" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:09.477] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "FOR WHAT" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:11.469] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "700 points" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:14.267] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "OG MY" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:16.078] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "OH MY" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:17.034] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "think about it before you attack an officer next time shitlord" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:17.661] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "what" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:17.761] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THATS LIKE THE SAME" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:19.250] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "FOR GRAND THEFT" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:20.884] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "thats going to take like" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:21.958] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I DIDNT ATTACDK YOU" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:23.661] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "50 minutes" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:24.510] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I DIDNT EVEN TOUCH YOU" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:25.034] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CAP" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:26.195] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "SEARCH ME" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:26.362] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "fine" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:27.119] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "400" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:28.325] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "I DONT EVEN HAVE" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:29.001] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "BLOOD" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:30.165] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "ON MY GEAR" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:31.965] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "thats going to take uh" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:32.308] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "SEARCH ME CAP" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:33.500] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "CAP" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:33.600] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "what" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:34.842] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "DONT FUCKING" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:36.731] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "PUT ME IN THE GULAG" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:36.836] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "uh" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:37.957] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "150" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:38.467] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "THIS SECOFF" (Brig (100,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:39.334] GAME: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) teleported Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) to the Labor Camp  (69,32,5) for 400 points. (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:40.394] SAY: Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) "IS SO DELUSIONAL" (Labor Camp (69,32,5))
[2022-09-11 03:37:40.688] SAY: Overuseddart/(Barco Merg) "at most" (Brig (99,170,2))
Nope22
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:21 am
Byond Username: Nope22

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #652120

the QM escaped justice only because the warden grabbed him while I was dealing with the chief medical officer, the only reason I didn't go out looking for him then and thereafter I gulaged the CMO was because the revolution was confirmed over the radio and subsequently the brig started to come under attack with an officer in the hallway, I had a bigger issue to tend to. Asking an AI to open a door you don't have access to doesn't magically mean you can be in that area without repercussion and I hate that you've told me I should have done absolutely nothing because this guy was a head of staff was magically above any repercussions.

I dunked on somebody who wanted to involve and start a conflict with me without so much as a word, I didn't need to involve or talk with them about jack shit when the only words they communicated was "AI OPEN DOOR" then instantly go on the attack what the fuck do you expect me to do, lay there and allow them to stun lock me and go "Yeah but why are you doing this." The *only* thing I can perceive I did wrong in this interaction was loot his baton, but I did that on the cause that the last head of staff the quartermaster had just used it TWICE on me in two separate incidents and this CMO was wordlessly helping him I decided to remove the equation all of that together, if that alone is "Note worthy" or players into this whole fact there's a bit of irony here about unfair punishment.

the teleporter was removed because he attempted to use it in the security officer to either depose me into or it escape, he didn't make a blue magical portal just because it looks funny and cool, he got it taken away when he got detained I genuinely do not understand how this is hard to comprehend after this guy started throwing me against the wall and stunning me with his baton. I just don't understand why you're not unable to perceive that helping a person attacking an officer, even if it's just one shove is taken into account if you're attacking in a group of two players man this is beyond frustrating that I've had to continuously ask this in admin help and again I now have to do it on an appeal on a badly placed note.

Why does the cmo get a pass for not only involving himself into a conflict he had no business being in, assisted in a crime and then rightfully punished, you told me I should have been "lenient" on him because of his job title. Yeah I am upset, I am mad that I had to go through two rounds of jumping hoops only to wind up with this guy at the end murdering me because he spent more time staring at a fucking wall in the gulag admin helping about oh the INJUSTICES of space men instead of doing the work and you don't see any issue with this what so ever.

You highlight that I'm in bad water because *I* didn't explain of what I was doing in my own department eating donuts before a door is suddenly open and they come running in wordlessly attacking me, like what the fuck. I want head admins or whoever to view this because there's genuinely no point in further discussion as likewise you seem hell-bent to uphold this no matter how what I say.
Nope22
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:21 am
Byond Username: Nope22

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #652138

Lastly, and this goes back to your initial reaction to the ahelp. Upon me asking you what happened with the CMO, you immediately hostile regarding the CMO and tell me that you were "hoping" he would ahelp the situation. This tells me one of two things (potentially both). Either you also felt the sentence was unjust and worthy of an ahelp, which certainly does not speak in your favor in regards to this appeal. Or, alternatively and more in line with everything else that I'm seeing based on the ticket and the logs, you have a personal issue with the player and used IC means to punish them. Again, this does not help you, and only serves to strengthen by belief that you appear to be trying to hide behind Space Law as a means to punish another player.
Coming back to this because over everything you have listed in such a massive post that I've seen to have missed it, are you accusing me of meta-gaming this player, I literally didn't even now what his fucking CD key was and now I'm more then fucking curious as to the evidence that you seem to think exists to warrant such an excuse, Yeah I was glad he admin help, I was fucking ecstatic that this guy seethed that he got what was coming to him with the fat dick of the law being slapped across his cheeks especially during the entire process of him sperging out in all caps in the vain I DIDN'T DO NUFFIN

Image
Image

My one and only regret is that I made this in the Ban appeal section instead of an admin complaint.
iain0
In-Game Admin Trainer
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:23 pm
Byond Username: Iain0

Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by iain0 » #652179

I've mostly stayed out of this thread so far but I've a few things to add once the discussion moves towards "admin complaints".

Firstly given you have an active note you may be required to appeal it before complaining. The policy actually states you must appeal any ban, not mentioning notes, but then this forum is also called ban appeals not notes appeals so some guesswork about the exact application remains, but you haven't necessarily picked wrong path in coming here.

Secondly I'm currently training RandomlyEvil and was supervising them at the time this ticket occurred, we'd popped on to Sybil for a "quick" round to see if we picked up any interesting tickets, and as well as handling other tickets ended up staying on much longer than intended finishing this up. As the supervisor however this also places some responsibility for events on me, so I'm going to present my take on all these things.

Since you start by listing the CMO's extensive protests in the chat log, it'll be relevant later to list your ENTIRE chat log for the round up until the moment you gulag the CMO, noting that only the first five lines take place before you have arrested both the CMO and QM (mob posession / round start is at 03:25:18)

Code: Select all

[2022-09-11 03:30:43.492] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "use your baton on me again and i'll fucking gulag you" (Brig (100,163,2))
[2022-09-11 03:31:34.954] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "everybody breaks into tech storage man" (Security Office (119,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:12.520] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "who did it again?" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:41.952] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "yeah so says the sperg who instantly attacked me because i caught you tresspassing" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:34:44.258] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "shut up and get out" (Security Office (116,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:11.688] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "gulag" (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:13.713] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "both these shitters" (Security Office (114,173,2))
[2022-09-11 03:35:44.797] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "gulaging the CMO for being a dipshit." (Brig (98,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:02.362] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "he broke in with the QM to try and fucking mug me" (Brig (99,171,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:16.221] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "you literally" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:17.513] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "asked the ai" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:19.430] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "to open the door" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:20.783] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "to attack me" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:36:22.709] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "shut up dumbass" (Brig (99,170,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:11.469] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "700 points" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:17.034] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "think about it before you attack an officer next time shitlord" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:26.362] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "fine" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:27.119] SAY: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) "400" (Brig (99,169,2))
[2022-09-11 03:37:39.334] GAME: Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) teleported Medeelel18/(Mikhail Prevatt) to the Labor Camp  (69,32,5) for 400 points. (Brig (99,169,2))
So many little things bother me about this whole situation, it ultimately ends up being a case where I shake my head and feel like everyone has made the worst choices in many situations, but you're not exempt in that sweeping statement, in fact you make some key choices that will shape this outcome.

Note that while the CMO later on "revenge" murders you on the shuttle, this is not part of this ticket, and while the two are fused into one "manifest" ticket in the admin system (due to it not supporting more than one ticket per ckey fundamentally) I urged my candidate to treat the two events entirely separately ; the revenge murder is much much later on in the round, and was handled appropriately, as such I will not factor it into events here which I will limit to the relevant stuff up until the revolution is discussed ; particularly this means I won't be paying too much attention to the release of the QM in the second offence. Other than to note that having let the QM go, completely forgetting the CMO is down on the planet and likely to return of their own volition when they've done their job into a station full of revolutionaries may not be the most responsible attitude towards their future safety.

Where to start.

Firstly citing space law in admin helps ; I believe you have misunderstood the paragraph at the top of the space law page, you interpret it as
"I know the space law section of the wiki has that section of if you try and apply it in ooc you'll get laughed at so it is an IC issue"
I read it as rather the opposite, the "so it is an IC issue" is your misinterpretation, what in fact it says is
"Administrators will only intervene when you are sentenced to grossly unfair times. If you get 3 minutes instead of 2, talk to the lawyer as it's considered an IC issue. If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at."
We will intervene, when we think its unfair, and that explaining your actions in terms of space law will get you laughed at. It's intended for you to go have a courtroom drama and file official sounding space law stuff, along with as general guidance, it's not a "protection" against being ahelped or against being asked to explain your choices in terms that aren't space law. Had there been any kind of legal IC discussion then perhaps most of these events wouldn't have happened.

Relevant to that I would counter that they are not necessarily "knowingly assisting a criminal", at the point they get involved they have zero visbility of events in cargo with the QM, they merely talk to the QM, have concerns about you taking the hand teleporter (possibly legitimately, but its still a useful tool for a QM to shift boxes back to cargo rather than risking dying in maint by towing boxes), they /try/ to talk to you for 30+ seconds and receive zero reaction from you. Even as they enter the room you're in you're not really into discussing anything instead just opting for an insult and a "get out". But from the CMO's point of view this is the only interaction they've had with you, they've not prearranged to have a fight with you, and after shoving you the once, take no further hostile action against you. And lets face it, walking into the security office - where they have no way of leaving without the AI opening the door again - surrounded by officers - is a really dumb place to actually try take down an officer. It is in fact the QM again who really escalates this into a situation, but had the QM not acted at all it would be a very hard case to argue this was "knowingly assisting" anything, and there's no reason the CMO should necessarily expect the QM to make a really bizzare attack (given the prior conditions). All in all from the CMO's point of view this is an incredibly short encounter between the two of you and your response is very severe, perhaps overly so.

It's bizzare to me how little interaction occurs during the first encounter with the QM, they do say a few things to you, though never disclose they were given permission. You are basically wordless until you threaten them if they touch you again. Any basic ammount of communication or interaction really ought to have helped avoid things at this point, but this definately falls on both parties.

The lack of communication again comes up during the interaction with the CMO ; because the CMO is oblivious to what actually happened in this first incident, all they did from their point of view is shove you once, then watch the QM go nuts, for which you want to give them a 700 point gulag sentence. I'm not going to give you the credit for it being 400 because that only seems to come off the back of the captain talking to you. Another person you mostly ignore and barely interact with, actually punishing the prisoner in the middle of the conversation with the captain trying to talk to you about the sentence length. And sure, I guess you don't have to actually listen to the captain that much, but through and through this is this pattern of action over interaction, and so much of this interaction presented much better options.

The CMO literally can not be aware of the dual crimes you're punishing them with, and you never take the time to tell them, in fact you don't speak once to the CMO other than to once again lourde your victory position over them as was all you said to the QM, and tell them they're a dumbass for attacking you, getting the last word by stabbing the gulagging button. And again, this is all perfectly within your rights, but giving them some idea what you're charging them for isn't a huge ask for a security officer (and I believe there's even policy somewhere that encourages this by relaxing the behaviour of prisoners when they aren't aware of the circumstance). On top of me really disputing the validity of aiding and abetting here anyway.

In terms of anyone actually doing anything, the QM physically hurt you with a throw, table shoved and stunned you more than once, and used evasive teleport actions on you to gain an upper hand, during the encounter in cargo. They got a 5 minute brig sentence for this. On the other hand the CMO shoved you once in total and got an 8 minute equivalent gulag sentence. This combined with your quite hostile comments in the admin help about them seem excessive given how small this interaction is in terms of content. It's entirely possible this is heat of the moment type stuff but it did seem a bit excessive and legitimately raised questions about if there's some player history that (as non sybil-mins generally) we'd be unaware of. Personally I wouldn't have followed this lead particularly as its way too much work for the level of this tickets severity, it's just another thing that felt odd.

I'm sure there's things I've missed out here, this isn't meant to be as indepth or investigative as RandomlyEvil's work which ultimately should still be that which represents this appeal, trial by fire for a new admin and all that fun stuff, but there's so many individual little pieces here that make me really question this whole scenario, and the question at the base of this ticket is, was this all fair to the CMO with their limited perspective, and it genuinely feels like a bit of an overreaction, particularly at the time given my lack of personal insight into what gulag means, I simply think of it as "strictly worse" than being in the brig ; not just the literal time spent, but also the effort and risk ; even if it takes exactly 8 minutes from processing to release via gulag, gulag is still "strictly" worse than 8 minutes in a brig cell. How much worse, and how well 700 points maps to 8 minutes is debatable. I'd likely not have cared if you'd given them up to 10 minutes in a brig cell but gulag 700 points felt quite odd and is something i rarely see used for such simple cases.

There's any number of ways this situation could have gone better. Any decent discussion and attempt to understand the situation from you, or the QM, could have driven this down totally different paths. Of the three of you, the CMO is perhaps the only one who makes any attempt to verbally interact, and is met with a wall of silence (intentionally or through not noticing). At this particular point, they're the only one making an effort rather than just mechanically playing things out. And that carries on right until you gulag them, with your conversation with the captain being your only real concession here.

The note as it stands isn't very good for sure, I was also over an hour past when i wanted to leave, would go straight to sleep after this and be generally quite exhausted ; since you'd made it clear you planned to appeal before the note had been even written I guess I wasn't too bothered and the appeals process would give a much more relaxed timeframe to deal with everything, however i think it does currently miss a lot of these considerations that also went into its writing.

But after all this I'm still left asking two questions ; given the limited perspective and likely intent of the CMO, is this a fair judgement made by you, but the more I look into these logs, the more things I find that make me shake my head, and I'm left also asking was this the best anyone could have done, is this role play, is this the sort of set of interactions we want to see from a security officer towards other players, because I feel there's a lot of room for improvement here, perhaps additionally by the QM, and maybe the CMO could have been more patient and not shoved... At the end of the day, none of any of this was necessary, no-one did anything particularly wrong, and yet somehow it spiralled into this mess.

As for should a note stand. I'm not that firmly routed on this either way, the handling admin will make the call and it'll go from there. I'd love to know what the bigger pattern of your security play style is, and the note can be a minor advisory towards future admins to look out for anything that seems questionable, as I'm unlikely to form a bigger picture personally due to my lack of sybil time. The other big question if it could promote better handling of situations in future that may not lead to such mechanically biased outcomes. I don't really know if there is a bigger picture towards which it could contribute, but at the same time I'm not going to argue against their conclusions either because there's too many little question marks all over this, and ultimately new admins need to learn to make their own decisions, and then decide what to stand by and how, hence me really wanting them to get their major response in first.

I will also say that in their credit, for a ticket early in their cycle, they've put a lot of time into this ticket, and a lot of analysis, and forming conclusions about it, and even took it to adminbus to get more opinions which ended up with all sorts of different takes. And whichever way this case ends up going, I think it will mostly come down to relatively minor differences in opinion about where the lines should be.
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Lacran » #652184

Posting to Clarify a few precedents:

Note Appeal vs Admin Complaint: (why to appeal this note)
► Show Spoiler
Securitry Policy Rule 3 Precendent, based off Pandar's 8 minute test: (this note addressing an action that should NOT be actionable by admins)
► Show Spoiler
Headmin opinion regarding spacelaw as a shield vs RandomlyEvil's: (found in Space Law: Rewritten: Remastered: 2 post)
► Show Spoiler
Assault on an officer wording in notes:
► Show Spoiler
To say :
RandomlyEvil wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:10 pm I fail to see how you can apply a "Assault of an officer" for a single shove
is incorrect, disarming aka shoving is explicitly mentioned, you do NOT need to harm an officer to assault them.
 ! Message from: Timberpoes
Edited out part with personal opinions. That can still be done in peanuts alongside all the other running commentary. The rest of the post is fine.
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by oranges » #652188

iain0 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:43 pm
Secondly I'm currently training RandomlyEvil and was supervising them at the time this ticket occurred, we'd popped on to Sybil for a "quick" round to see if we picked up any interesting tickets, and as well as handling other tickets ended up staying on much longer than intended finishing this up. As the supervisor however this also places some responsibility for events on me, so I'm going to present my take on all these things.
Hey man, maybe you and them could use some training on brevity? Nobody should have to read essay level posts for a single note.

It's good to be thorough but everyone in this thread needs to learn how to communicate with clarity.
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #652201

Relevant to that I would counter that they are not necessarily "knowingly assisting a criminal", at the point they get involved they have zero visbility of events in cargo with the QM, they merely talk to the QM, have concerns about you taking the hand teleporter (possibly legitimately, but its still a useful tool for a QM to shift boxes back to cargo rather than risking dying in maint by towing boxes), they /try/ to talk to you for 30+ seconds and receive zero reaction from you. Even as they enter the room you're in you're not really into discussing anything instead just opting for an insult and a "get out". But from the CMO's point of view this is the only interaction they've had with you, they've not prearranged to have a fight with you, and after shoving you the once, take no further hostile action against you. And lets face it, walking into the security office - where they have no way of leaving without the AI opening the door again - surrounded by officers - is a really dumb place to actually try take down an officer. It is in fact the QM again who really escalates this into a situation, but had the QM not acted at all it would be a very hard case to argue this was "knowingly assisting" anything, and there's no reason the CMO should necessarily expect the QM to make a really bizzare attack (given the prior conditions). All in all from the CMO's point of view this is an incredibly short encounter between the two of you and your response is very severe, perhaps overly so.
If a player dedicates themself to the purpose of stealing prisoners away from security because they think its funny and wind up stealing away an enemy of the station that is exceptionally dangerous, IE a wizard that managed to be captured alive and gets the jackboot to the head until he's a corpse that's his fault, he rolled the dice it doesn't matter if he "doesn't know" because he had no reason to be there in the fucking first place trying to act like batman because he took the word of a QM and went at it. He went out of his way to get into this conflict, he came into my department, the brig, there was no "attempt" to talk, the only word text that I manage to see from him was a demand from the AI to open the door before he instantly rushes in and attempts to stun me via table pushing before the QM whips out a weapon. That. Is. His. Fault. For getting involved I do not understand how this can be put anymore clearly, yeah he might of have had a leg to stand on in reason if this were to happen in lets say, the medical bay, his own department but the brig?

I just can't believe the sheer effort that is going into this to try and reason why it would be upheld and the number of hoops I'm having to jump through with these text dumps because some guy had to spend 5-6 minutes maximum hitting rocks for something he wrongfully did, I feel like I'm trying to appeal a permanent ban here, I just want a head admin ruling.
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by RandomlyEvil » #652244

I'm not dead set on the note, which is why I'd asked for more information or what I could be missing to try to make sense of all the questions the whole situation raised. It certainly would have been far easier to mark as IC and be on with my night and have avoided all of this, but easier doesn't necessarily mean right and I'd rather err on the side of caution in that regard.

In all this whole situation was rather messy for the brief time it occurred in, and I do apologize for the time it took to process the ticket, as combing the logs to try to get my head around this situation was a timely effort. Unfortunately I still am asking myself the question of if this is how security is intended to act or if there's additional patterns, as Iain had mentioned, that I just don't see that plays into all of this.

That said, communication in this appeal also doesn't seem to be productive, so making a recommendation for an amended note seems futile, which is disappointing, as I can see in hindsight that the mention of the point reduction seems to have made this become about the points (to clarify, I mention the points in the note so that the reduction and reason for reduction were disclosed), rather than the gulag sentence itself and the unfortunately dramatic situation it created. Futile or not, however, I have given it another shot as I still feel the whole situation became a frustrating ordeal for those involved, and could have likely been avoided. This would be my recommendation.

Code: Select all

"As security, made two near wordless arrests, leading to a dramatic confrontation which resulted in a sentence perceived to be harsh by the prisoner.  The reasoning and context for the punishment was never clarified in a way that gave understanding to prior events that impacted the sentence to the individual who was being punished.  Asked to be more non-mechanically interactive in their approach and be open to and considerate of additional information and opinions from other impacted parties to potentially reach a better resolution for all those involved."

Given you've already requested Headmin review, I'll ping them and let them know.
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by Nope22 » #652247

I don't want this note amended, I want it removed, you've gone from noting it originally as an unjust punishment, a wild metagudge accusation with literally nothing to back it up with to now settling on the "You didn't interact with a guy who attacked you wordlessly enough." This was on Sybil, the LRP server, not Manuel, attempting to dictate "This is how I think security should be played and if not I'll note them for it" Via admin powers is fucking setting an atrocious example and a giant overreach of attempting to wrangle people into doing what you want on a whim on an opinion. You've efficiently just changed the note to "I think it was an unjust punishment" "This player didn't read him his space Miranda rights despite the guy fully well knowing that attacking an officer is against the law. Watch out for this shitter."

It's like you've just slapped me with a on the spot new addition to the security policy of the rules that I had no way of knowing let alone following that is magically known only to you lmao

When do you start noting wardens leaving the brig

When do you start bowinking the clown for not making people laugh

When do you start banning the janitor because he isn't doing his job and instead is wordlessly making wire art

Not to mention this "New" note of your confidently leaves out perhaps the most important part about the arrests being V A L I D
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Re: RandomlyEvil: Noted for applying space law.

Post by san7890 » #652847

We're overturning this, the behavior didn't break any rules and did not warrant a note. Although you were later encouraged to listen to the situation around you as well as solicit the opinion of your superiors, the note just does not reflect that at the time of placement, and any amendments to the note placed after the fact paint a much different picture than it's initial state (as in to say, "more harsh").

There are a few things worth mentioning. This was not discussed in a vacuum, I found at least five other admins contributing their opinions to this incident in the admin backchannels, and I was able to largely note that they were saying "IC issue in regards to the actual sentencing, should be told to communicate more." After reviewing a lot of the minutae, I think this is a fair statement that I personally wish that you can keep in mind.
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