[Vekter] Christopher Robin - A blow to Rule 1 Precedent 6.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:19 am
BYOND account: Christopher Robin
Character name: Christopher Robin
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 24 hours
Ban reason: As engineer, entered the round to find the cook setting up the SM. Wordlessly removed him from the department so he could finish it. Cook came back and, without provocation, player flashed him and threw him into the SM. You are allowed to defend your workplace but you are not permitted to escalate immediately to round removal, especially when he hasn't even done anything antagonistic against you. Please use your words or at least less permanent means of removal in the future. This ban (BanID #63095) was applied by Vekter on 2022-10-31 23:42:02 during round ID 193486. The ban is for 1 day and expires on 2022-11-01 23:42:02 (server time).
Time ban was placed: 2022-10-31 23:42:02
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil
Round ID in which ban was placed: was placed on 193486, round the event took place on was 193484
Your side of the story:
I would like to start by saying that when the Cook had an outburst in EORchat, I waited in lobby for several minutes so that I would be able to explain my side of the story in the next round in case of a bwoink. I observed the round for a short bit and saw everything progressing as normal, so I assumed it was marked as an IC issue (as some players in OOC had joked after the cook's outburst) and left. Unfortunately, I wasn't contacted by the banning admin during that time, and the ban was placed in my absence.
Logs:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... attack.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... 4/game.txt
The wording of this ban horribly misrepresents the events from my perspective and is outright incorrect in some regards. I will be restating my experience in chronological order, including logs where appropriate. To begin, I checked crew manifest, found that engineering was empty, and joined as the only member of engineering. I walked directly to engineering and found it in utter shambles. Windows were smashed, doors were hacked, and both the electrical supply locker and CE locker were dragged out front, smashed open, and looted of their contents. Seeing that my department had fallen victim to some incredible tiding, I assumed that I had a long road ahead of me to reacquire the things that I would need to do my job (insuls specifically), and reenforce my department to prevent them from being stolen a second time. Needless to say, I was not happy to see the Cook hanging out in my department and appearing to be tiding even more of what little was still left. I immediately took him down with non-lethal force and placed him outside the front door:
I assume the "Wordlessly" in the ban refers to how I initiated the fight on the assumption that he was tiding. Under normal circumstances I would have, but since my department looked like it had just been used as a loot-piñata I took initiative and removed him without taking any of his belongings or causing physical harm to him. While my assumption was quick and (potentially) incorrect, I still have reason to remove him on grounds of trespassing in my ransacked department. He then began to re-enter my department, so upon seeing that my actions had failed to speak louder than words during the brief time when there was a fairly large gap between us as an opportunity to speak, (which he instead used to begin re-entering my department) I ended my 'wordlessness' by saying:
While I am sure there are more refined things I could have said, those two words should strongly imply that I would like him to remain outside of my department while I fix the multiple breaches (into main hall, not space) in my department. The Cook chose to respond in standard tider fashion with (and this should disprove the "Cook came back and, without provocation" part):
There is quite a bit of us both dancing around here during these ~20 seconds, failing to click on each other in classic SS13 fashion. I understand that he is not required to listen after being told to remain out of my department and physically removed the first time, but I would also like to point out that he has no real reason to be entering my department after me, besides revenge on the 0 damage that I delt to him and to return to looting engineering. If he had a good reason to be in my department, he could have said so himself while stamcrit, or after I had left him unharmed and with all of his belongings in main hall. Instead, he opted to continue the escalation with me in my department (I believe escalations are supposed to end upon people entering crit, but I can't remember about stamcrit) and being as he is escalating in my department, he is allowed to match my non-lethal force. Fortunately for me, I land the next click:
Now we are right back to where we were ~50 seconds ago. have a decision to make, do I attempt to throw him back out into main hall, with another warning, only for him to come back and potentially robust me on the third conflict (he had already demonstrated that he wanted to keep the escalation going, that escalation would probably end that way since my flash had burnt out), or do I use a very valuable Rule 1 precedent that came to mind during this dilemna:
from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
Why you think you should be unbanned:
Here's the thing, this wasn't some angry heat-of-the-moment decision or even one made arbitrarily in ignorance of the rules. My final act was literally from me trying to follow a precedent that I remember from the rules page of the wiki and have used many times in the past to deal with tiders who keep breaking in despite attempts to remove them. It is borderline essential (ironically) in the roll of Cook when some rando decides it would be funny to hop the counter and screw with me (or the robots, in that brief time back before they were made borderline invincible). I always, throw the rando out in (mostly) non-lethal fashion with a warning that they will get made into a burger if they do that again, and then I make good on that warning if they take their joke too far.
I personally don't like escalating against people at all, but if I robust someone and tell them to go away, I make use of "fuck around and find out" because some people just refuse to stop harassing me until death. I am aware that I could have initiated this confrontation with questions, but my removal of a cook from engineering is still valid on the grounds that they are a cook in engineering. If they had a problem with my removal of them from the premises, the task should fall on them to justify why they were trespassing to begin with. I'm not looking for excuses to kill people, but if I physically remove someone for a valid reason and ask them to stay out, they are now one more intentional disruption away from getting an unfortunate workplace accident under rule 1 precedent 6, which I will choose whether or not to inflict on them depending on the situation. In this situation, it strongly appeared that I would be "shittered upon" just as hard as the rest of my department had already been. I did not force the Cook to come back into engineering, they could have explained themselves, or they could have just walked away like most reasonable people do when forced to leave someone else's department. They made it clear that they would keep coming back for more until I eventually lost, and I use rule 1 precedent 6 as a shield against that.
As a final note, I would like to reiterate that R1 P6 is ESSENTIAL for dealing with people who just won't go away no matter what. I would really hate to hear that trying to be productive and do my job means tolerating people doing whatever they want in my department, since I would be able to do little besides catch and release over and over and over and over... I fundamentally do not want a note that implies a message "this guy uses R1P6 to kill bate" in any tiny capacity what-so-ever, because I really don't want to face administrative action when dealing with people who intentionally interfere with my work on the station.
References of good conduct:
I have played here for the past several years without so much as a note, literally doing what I always do and beating up people exactly the way the rules allow it, frequently being more lenient than necessary.
Anything else:
(tldr for peanut I guess?)
Character name: Christopher Robin
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 24 hours
Ban reason: As engineer, entered the round to find the cook setting up the SM. Wordlessly removed him from the department so he could finish it. Cook came back and, without provocation, player flashed him and threw him into the SM. You are allowed to defend your workplace but you are not permitted to escalate immediately to round removal, especially when he hasn't even done anything antagonistic against you. Please use your words or at least less permanent means of removal in the future. This ban (BanID #63095) was applied by Vekter on 2022-10-31 23:42:02 during round ID 193486. The ban is for 1 day and expires on 2022-11-01 23:42:02 (server time).
Time ban was placed: 2022-10-31 23:42:02
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil
Round ID in which ban was placed: was placed on 193486, round the event took place on was 193484
Your side of the story:
I would like to start by saying that when the Cook had an outburst in EORchat, I waited in lobby for several minutes so that I would be able to explain my side of the story in the next round in case of a bwoink. I observed the round for a short bit and saw everything progressing as normal, so I assumed it was marked as an IC issue (as some players in OOC had joked after the cook's outburst) and left. Unfortunately, I wasn't contacted by the banning admin during that time, and the ban was placed in my absence.
Logs:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... attack.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... 4/game.txt
The wording of this ban horribly misrepresents the events from my perspective and is outright incorrect in some regards. I will be restating my experience in chronological order, including logs where appropriate. To begin, I checked crew manifest, found that engineering was empty, and joined as the only member of engineering. I walked directly to engineering and found it in utter shambles. Windows were smashed, doors were hacked, and both the electrical supply locker and CE locker were dragged out front, smashed open, and looted of their contents. Seeing that my department had fallen victim to some incredible tiding, I assumed that I had a long road ahead of me to reacquire the things that I would need to do my job (insuls specifically), and reenforce my department to prevent them from being stolen a second time. Needless to say, I was not happy to see the Cook hanging out in my department and appearing to be tiding even more of what little was still left. I immediately took him down with non-lethal force and placed him outside the front door:
Code: Select all
[2022-10-31 23:05:41.060] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) shoved Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:41.980] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) kicks Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:41.981] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) shoved Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (172,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:44.165] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) grabbed Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (170,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:44.974] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (170,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:45.782] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (170,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:46.773] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine Room (167,149,2))
[2022-10-31 23:05:53.863] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Engineering Foyer (159,139,2))
Code: Select all
[2022-10-31 23:06:04.103] SAY: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) "get out" (Engineering (159,150,2))
Code: Select all
[2022-10-31 23:06:24.032] ATTACK: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) shoved Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) (NEWHP: 100) (Engineering (159,153,2))
Code: Select all
[2022-10-31 23:06:28.680] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Engineering (160,150,2))
[2022-10-31 23:06:29.782] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) flashed(targeted) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (Engineering (159,150,2))
[2022-10-31 23:06:31.230] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) grabbed Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Engineering (159,151,2))
from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
While my initial assumption that he had in some capacity been responsible for the damage to my department, and that assumption may have been wrong (I still haven't necessarily been told it was), I don't believe I am required to ask why someone is trespassing before I non-harmfully remove them from the area they are trespassing in, and when they ignore a statement that clearly implies that their presence is unwanted by reentering and perpetuating a shoving match that is disruptive by nature, I feel that the situation still falls under what is described by the 6th precedent of rule 1 as listed on the wiki. Infact, I even opted for a "creative workplace death" since I remembered that part of the wording:6. You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.
Code: Select all
[2022-10-31 23:06:36.491] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) grabbed Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine (166,153,2))
[2022-10-31 23:06:37.289] ATTACK: Christopher Robin/(Christopher Robin) thrown Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) grab from tile in Supermatter Engine (166,153,2) towards tile at Supermatter Engine (170,154,2) (NEWHP: 100) (Supermatter Engine (166,153,2))
[2022-10-31 23:06:37.386] ATTACK: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) has died (BRUTE: 0, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (Supermatter Engine (168,154,2))
Here's the thing, this wasn't some angry heat-of-the-moment decision or even one made arbitrarily in ignorance of the rules. My final act was literally from me trying to follow a precedent that I remember from the rules page of the wiki and have used many times in the past to deal with tiders who keep breaking in despite attempts to remove them. It is borderline essential (ironically) in the roll of Cook when some rando decides it would be funny to hop the counter and screw with me (or the robots, in that brief time back before they were made borderline invincible). I always, throw the rando out in (mostly) non-lethal fashion with a warning that they will get made into a burger if they do that again, and then I make good on that warning if they take their joke too far.
I personally don't like escalating against people at all, but if I robust someone and tell them to go away, I make use of "fuck around and find out" because some people just refuse to stop harassing me until death. I am aware that I could have initiated this confrontation with questions, but my removal of a cook from engineering is still valid on the grounds that they are a cook in engineering. If they had a problem with my removal of them from the premises, the task should fall on them to justify why they were trespassing to begin with. I'm not looking for excuses to kill people, but if I physically remove someone for a valid reason and ask them to stay out, they are now one more intentional disruption away from getting an unfortunate workplace accident under rule 1 precedent 6, which I will choose whether or not to inflict on them depending on the situation. In this situation, it strongly appeared that I would be "shittered upon" just as hard as the rest of my department had already been. I did not force the Cook to come back into engineering, they could have explained themselves, or they could have just walked away like most reasonable people do when forced to leave someone else's department. They made it clear that they would keep coming back for more until I eventually lost, and I use rule 1 precedent 6 as a shield against that.
As a final note, I would like to reiterate that R1 P6 is ESSENTIAL for dealing with people who just won't go away no matter what. I would really hate to hear that trying to be productive and do my job means tolerating people doing whatever they want in my department, since I would be able to do little besides catch and release over and over and over and over... I fundamentally do not want a note that implies a message "this guy uses R1P6 to kill bate" in any tiny capacity what-so-ever, because I really don't want to face administrative action when dealing with people who intentionally interfere with my work on the station.
References of good conduct:
I have played here for the past several years without so much as a note, literally doing what I always do and beating up people exactly the way the rules allow it, frequently being more lenient than necessary.
Anything else:
(tldr for peanut I guess?)
NSFW: