/tg/Station 13

BYOND account: EmpressMaia
Character name: Maia Roentgen
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 4 day
Ban reason: Time ban was placed: its in da pic
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed:its in da pic
Your side of the story: Broly Butterfingers tried to kill me about 3 times over the course of the shift. eventually i find him in departured and tool box him to crit, i was dragging a plasma can behind me away from ordanance because toxins was fucked due to space carp and space dragon. toolboxing him would have been boring so i decided to build a tiny burn chamber to kill him with, he luckily got his suit on and dissasembeled the chamber resulting in a small plasma fire that was quickly extinguished by the crew. no crew were really hurt and no equipment or machines werre damaged or destroyed.
Why you think you should be unbanned: i built the chamber but the traitor caused the fire to happen, a not even large fire. it was small and was instantly dealt with. i dont understand why i was banned for a small fire that didnt hurt anyone or anything.
References of good conduct: I roleplay well in my rounds, ask the people who play alongside me
Anything else we should know: I spoke to broly in discord and they agree this ban doesnt really make sense

I'll pipe up and say that yeah, I talked to Maia and I think this ban is completely ridiculous. I'd even go so far as to say that this ban borders on spiteful, and I told Maia to consider an admin complaint based on the outcome of this thread. I was a traitor, they were my target, I spent pretty much the entire round harassing them and assaulting them with syndicate paper airplanes on-sight. It was the culmination of like forty minutes of regular harassment and I greatly appreciated that they went through the effort to kill me in an interesting way. The way the chamber was built was fine; it used walls and not holofans or anything, you needed tools to disassemble it. They built it in the bottom-right corner of departures taking up one tile. The reason the fire got out is that they didn't realize I had an atmospheric hardsuit on my back (as a lawyer), I starlight-healed out of crit the SECOND they lit the fire, I managed to get my hardsuit on, got back up, bought a syndicate toolbox with my uplink and disassembled the wall. The fire was small, killed nobody, covered maybe 30 tiles and was quickly extinguished by about five different people even as I made active efforts to try to spread it onto the shuttle by walking it through an airlock. They took reasonable precautions to prevent it from spreading and built it properly.

As far as I know, I was the only person meaningfully affected by the fire; a few people caught fire but just rolled it off and kept going because the fire was tiny. Other than that, I don't think it even destroyed any equipment. This being treated as a FLOOD is incredibly disingenuous; it didn't even fill half of departures until after the shuttle was gone. They were told it was "their responsibility" but no meaningful damage was done until after the departures shuttle was long gone, and if the departures shuttle wasn't long-gone it would've been trivially been dealt with via the room's air alarm. What is there to take responsibility for?

This is an incredibly overzealous ban, I'd love for the admin to actually point at what damage occurred that was actually bannable because I didn't even see a light fixture break, let alone anything meaningful. I was super appreciative that I was going to go out in a way that was more fun than "hit man with box", only made it out because multiple stars aligned for me, and for them to be punished for that when no meaningful damage was done is fucking crazy, and discourages fun hunter/prey interactions.

The only damage I can think of that this fire might have caused that I didn't see is a bunch of damage to an empty room after the shuttle was gone lol.

Hi, thanks for making an appeal.

In short, I will be denying this appeal. If you would like to read further for an explanation, by all means continue ahead.

The main reason this ban was applied was because you built a plasma chamber in a public area (departures) and the gas was eventually let out. While you did not release the plasma yourself into the area, your actions created a potential hazard which unfortunately caused a plasmaflood in departures. Your only defense in the ticket between you and I when I asked multiple times, "Why departures?" was, "i put broly inn it because he tried to kill me," and, "because thats where i crit him." You could have chosen anywhere else to do it, especially knowing the shuttle was arriving soon and the horde of people rushing to the emergency shuttle would be affected by it if it did leak. With about 1600 hours of game time accumulated in only a year, you should be experienced enough to know that what could happen, will very likely happen especially as you have done these sorts of things before and have been noted/banned for it.

To reiterate from our ticket, you are responsible for your public projects. You can make radiation hell in the vacant office, plasmaman only lounges, etc. but it is your responsibility as the builder to accept accountability for it when it does go horrendously wrong. We would not be noting/banning you every time it happens if it was not against the rules. You also have roughly 8 notes/bans accumulated relating to atmospherics as a non-antagonist involving a public supermatter that went AWOL, multiple instances of causing plasma/tritium floods as both an Asimov cyborg and carbon, attempted singularities, and other gas floods such releasing N2O. This is excluding your escapades as an antagonist on Manuel and ignoring us to plasmaflood anyways after knowing fully of the murderbone rules. Considering this and the other 26 notes/bans you have (34 in total, excluding your most current applied by me) the ban was increased to a four day ban for a horrendous note history. Please keep in mind, a majority of our players do not accumulate notes or bans roughly every two weeks or so.

In most cases, this would just be a note, but your unwillingness to give me an answer in accepting responsibility in the ticket for your actions has been unsatisfactory coupled by your abysmal note/ban history. I have also been notified you have no qualms playing the victim in the Unofficial Manuel Discord as well.

Relevant links:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/200024/11
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... nd-200024/

> To reiterate from our ticket, you are responsible for your public projects

What meaningful damage was caused that they are responsible for? Nobody died and nothing important was broken. From what I could tell they were responsible for maybe a light fixture and a third of an airlock door until the shuttle left, and zero deaths.

> I have also been notified you have no qualms playing the victim in the Unofficial Manuel Discord as well.

I was the one who suggested they appeal this ban. This specific statement just reinforces my thought that this is a pretty spite-driven ban.

Also for reference: from what I saw, this was the total size of the fire at its absolute largest (until after the shuttle left, dunno if it reignited at that point)

It only made it onto the shuttle because I, as an antag, was actively and intentionally walking the spread into the shuttle to try to make it more severe. And it made it about 5-7 tiles in, killing nobody before being promptly extinguished.

Id like to request a headmin review of my appeal.

A small fire was released after a traitor broke the containment i build over them, this is a cool interaction and part of the story of the round. a small fire is fun for the crew. you seem to be assuming bad faith in my play. in reality im just a fucking idiot, most of my notes are due to incompetence.

"public supermatter that went AWOL" - i fucked up a engine in the aux tool room with another engie, it was swifty taken care of
" ignoring us to plasmaflood anyways after knowing fully of the murderbone rules" - i was confused about what the admins were telling me, i thought they meant through distro, read the appeal related to that.
"multiple instances of causing plasma/tritium floods as both an Asimov cyborg and carbon" the borg one was me using a plasma fire on a horde of xenos after a human asked me to

It's worth noting that, historically, players are responsible for the projects they choose to create. If you make a burn mix chamber somewhere and someone else lets out the plasma, it's also on you for building something dangerous in a public place.

[Edit by Timberpoes] Peanut parts snipped.

> It's worth noting that, historically, players are responsible for the projects they choose to create. If you make a burn mix chamber somewhere and someone else lets out the plasma, it's also on you for building something dangerous in a public place.

The perverse incentives created here for antags to disassemble even slightly-harmful contraptions in order to get people in trouble are pretty hilarious, but also extremely chilling for antagonists who want to commit sabotage without risking other people getting banned for it.

If I'd known the other player was going to get BANNED for me breaking out of their chamber as an antag I'd have disassembled my way to space instead, disassembling right instead of left. Making me specifically responsible for this ban sucks ass.

"doing something destructive for the purpose of making the round more interesting"

This isn't what I did. It was a botched murder attempt that turned into a lightly destructive situation

As for my incompetence in relation to bad faith play. Alot of people here are idiots. But we are all idiots trying to have fun togethe
It's what makes this game really special

What meaningful damage was caused that they are responsible for? Nobody died and nothing important was broken. From what I could tell they were responsible for maybe a light fixture and a third of an airlock door until the shuttle left, and zero deaths.

Zero deaths perhaps, but this is not something we would like to see on the MRP server on top of inexcusable constant negligence as evidenced by their history.

I was the one who suggested they appeal this ban. This specific statement just reinforces my thought that this is a pretty spite-driven ban.

Your opinion, not fact. I suggest you forgo any psychological analysis based off of a single ban appeal. The player in question has been noted/banned by twelve different admins, excluding myself.

Also for reference: from what I saw, this was the total size of the fire at its absolute largest (until after the shuttle left, dunno if it reignited at that point)

It was not, it flooded the entire departures area with plasma. You should know gas moves evenly, it wouldn't just stay and cover that small area you depicted.

A small fire was released after a traitor broke the containment i build over them, this is a cool interaction and part of the story of the round. a small fire is fun for the crew. you seem to be assuming bad faith in my play. in reality im just a fucking idiot, most of my notes are due to incompetence.

Fun is subjective, but rules and responsibility are not. Assuming bad faith in play here is irrelevant. I don't really have an opinion about you, this is purely off the situation that happened and your note/ban history. We cannot let things slide because of your excuse of being incompetent, we have no realistic way of completely verifying if you are doing it on purpose or not, but we can track problematic behaviors and apply necessary decisions we would rather not like to do.

The perverse incentives created here for antags to disassemble even slightly-harmful contraptions in order to get people in trouble are pretty hilarious, but also extremely chilling for antagonists who want to commit sabotage without risking other people getting banned for it.

It's as simple as not creating a hazard in a public area. If you want to make virology as a virologist into uranium hell, go for it as it's not in a public area and people will have to go out of their way to give themselves stage 4 cancer. This is different as the plasma chamber was made in departures as the shuttle was arriving.

If I'd known the other player was going to get BANNED for me breaking out of their chamber as an antag I'd have disassembled my way to space instead, disassembling right instead of left. Making me specifically responsible for this ban sucks ass.

You exploited someone's bad idea to cause a plasmaflood, you chose to do that and if you feel responsible for it, that's not in my place to say otherwise.

As for my incompetence in relation to bad faith play. Alot of people here are idiots. But we are all idiots trying to have fun togethe
It's what makes this game really special

A bit rude to call a lot of other players idiots, but regardless of that, that sort of fun is subjective and not part of the ruling.

In any case, as you have requested headmin review, I will not be replying any further as I must divert my attention elsewhere for a special day tomorrow.

Where's the fun in building a chamber in maints that no one sees?

Could I ask what rule they broke? I don’t see it on the ban reason.

A reminder that peanut rules apply to admins as well as to players.

I checked both shift 200024 where the event happened, and shift 200028 where the ban was placed to verify who was involved or present in either shift.

I shouldn't have to prune posts from admins peanutting in appeals for events they were not involved in and were not present in the round for.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

Adding to/adjusting the definitions so that players can post in a thread regarding something they weren't involved in, IF IT IS TO BRING UP/POINT TO/HIGHLIGHT a rule, precedent, or piece of evidence that was missed that is relevant to the situation.

...

Reminder that this applies to uninvolved admins except Headmins.

...

This is in order to streamline appeals/requests and to not make them a shit fest that people don't want to touch.

EmpressMaia is the banned player, they can post freely in their own appeal.
BrolyButterfingers was involved in the incident and spoken to in tickets about it. Since they were involved in it, peanut policy doesn't apply to them insofar as they can speak from experience on the actual events as a participant.
While vect0r wasn't involved, their simple clarifying question may help identify which rule(s) are involved in this appeal and thus is valid under peanut policy.

Other commentary is much less relevant.

The plasma may have spread to all of departures but it never ignited from what I'm told.

Also I'd like to know specifically what rule I broke

Also Also hiiiii Timberpoes

I will say this for everyone reading:

I had two options as an antagonist here. I could have deconstructed one tile to the left, flooding departures with plasma as I escaped the chamber or I could have deconstructed one tile to the right, safely into space. I had a hardsuit, and I had internals. I could have chosen either.

I chose to release the plasma SPECIFICALLY because I was an antagonist and because I have license to do so as an antagonist as I have IC reason to do so (escaping the chamber). If I had known that the other player would be held liable and banned for my actions I would have chosen to deconstruct the chamber into space instead.

Enforcing this rule this way makes me specifically responsible for this player's ban, and has a chilling effect on how antagonists choose to behave in the future. I know that if this ban stands I won't be engaging in sabotage in the future because I'm not playing SS13 to get my fellow player shitcanned off the server.

Any reality where another player is responsible out-of-character for my actions as an antagonist means that if I do my job well as antagonist I could be getting other players banned. That's absolute dogshit. It's garbage. The precedents it sets are insane. There are so many non-loggable ways I can get people banned under this precedent like combat-mode pushing people into others' constructions or even just holding doors open so gases escape, let alone how many people I could get banned when I'm actually an antag by just walking up and RCDing shit.

This is so obviously a bad ban based on a bad note history and it needs to be walked back because it pisses in the face of the agency of antag players who now have to worry about getting their friends banned, and creates a ton of perverse incentives for asshole players to sabotage constructions in clever ways to ban others.

Were headmins notified of this appeal?

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:24 pm Were headmins notified of this appeal?

I know at least one headmin is aware of the ban in general. Not sure if it was already lined up for headmin review so I've given them a nudge on that point.

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:34 pm

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:24 pm Were headmins notified of this appeal?

I know at least one headmin is aware of the ban in general. Not sure if it was already lined up for headmin review so I've given them a nudge on that point.

thank you thunder

I'll ask those questions

Gonna ask some questions I should have asked far earlier

1. Again, what rule was broken?
2. Was anybody killed? Before the ban, did you check if anybody was killed?
3. If nobody was killed; why did you give Maia a me day ban?

Looking into this ban, we agree that four days is disproportionate in relation to the damage caused as a result of the plasma leak, so we will be reducing the ban duration - this level of minor incident would not normally be escalated to a ban at all without evidence of major damage caused to other players.

With that said, you have a long history of causing problems with atmospherics, which makes our it much harder to accept "oops I'm stupid" defence when it keeps happening, there were multiple trivially easy ways you could have taken simple actions that would have prevented this construction from becoming a danger at all (something as simple of stripping the atmospherics modsuit off the back of the traitor you plan to execute with fire, or cuffing them first). Additionally, at least from my own log diving I did not see any instance of you personally fighting the resulting fire and spot fires caused by the plasma leak, which isn't a great look regarding efforts to prevent further damage.

In light of the above, while we will be reducing the duration of this ban - and recategorising it to be explicitly placed under rule 7, we will be retaining an edited version of the ban note and leaving an (already served) one day ban in place. I strongly recommend that if you wish to continue with these forms of projects, you focus a bit more on reasonable precautions and actively attempting to mitigate any damage that may be caused.

The ban note will be amended to:

"As a non antagonist scientist, defeated a traitor and set up a plasma burn chamber in departures to execute them. The traitor survived using passive healing and the atmospherics modsuit they were wearing, subsequently breaking the chamber with their tools, resulting in a flood of plasma into departures. Was told dangerous constructions remain their responsibility. Elevated to a ban under rule 7 due to their extensive history of similar events."

Spook: As above
San: As above
Rave: As above
Misdoubtful: As above