Bmon|xzero314 -Is The Captain a part of Security for RPR 4? Note Appeal
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:20 am
BYOND account:xzero314
Ban/note type: Note
note length: Indefinite
Note Reason:
As the captain chased down a heretic with the rest of sec who's location was called out by the AI. No life was directly under threat nor did the AI claim anything of the such. Since you didn't quite understand that RPR4 applies to the captain when I first spoke with you this note is more of a reminder to you that you are expected to follow RPR4 unless you have a valid reason not to under one of the listed precendents of that rule. It's best to leave chasing down antags to security, especially when there is a staffed sec team and the round is calm.
Server you were playing on: Manuel
Round ID:224825
Why are you making this appeal?
I would like to see the note overturned. I also believe that the note is not reflective of my understanding of the situation.
The Appeal:
So the note itself and the reason that it was left was cited as me having broken RPR 4 in hunting the heretic to engineering. I would like to open this appeal with the full ticket and our discussion that we had.
From Ticket #4 during round 224825 on Manuel:
---- Log Begins ----
2024-02-29 21:25:11: Ticket Opened by bmon: Hi there. What lead you to being in engineering?
2024-02-29 21:25:57: Reply from xzero314: the ai said rubs was in engineering. Rubs was also called out as a heretic by two heads so I was using my access to help sec get in and help the chase
2024-02-29 21:26:12: Reply from xzero314: They even specified "emitter room"
2024-02-29 21:26:30: Reply from bmon: Why are you as the captain dealing with that?
2024-02-29 21:27:45: Reply from xzero314: Hold on here. Am I not allowed to as the captain of the station try to help deal with the threats that come up? this was like a standard thing. Rubs tried to kill my hop
2024-02-29 21:28:11: Ticket Opened by xzero314: The ai also said they suspect I am a target
2024-02-29 21:28:28: Reply from bmon: It's a lot less excusable when you have a staff security team and the round has been rather slow
2024-02-29 21:29:37: Reply from xzero314: I never had rubs ordered to be executed and I actually on my life was going to be telling sec to implant them and send them on their way. Attempted murder and all that. Trust me I do take the round into account as Captain
2024-02-29 21:30:30: Reply from bmon: What? This has never been about anyone ordering their execution. The issue is you as the captain are acting as security, this is an RP Rule 4 issue.
2024-02-29 21:32:13: Reply from xzero314: I honestly disagree. The captain is part of the security chain and I was also signalled out as one of their targets. They also attacked multiple of my heads of staff. I was entirely justified to take action. Its not like I busted out the antique.
2024-02-29 21:32:40: Reply from bmon: Well I am here to tell you that the captain indeed not security, this is pretty well established.
2024-02-29 21:33:02: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I also didnt just drop everything to actively hunt them so thats not true. I went to where I heard an active heretic murdering was going down
2024-02-29 21:34:22: Reply from xzero314: I think my IC reasons were sufficient. I was signalled as one of their targets and they attacked the hop and CE. heads I am responsible for. I will keep it in mind however as I understand the Captain isnt meant to chase down everything that pops up and the issue you have is that it was a green shift.
2024-02-29 21:34:23: Reply from bmon: It's not your job to be chasing down threats unless it falls under one of the precendents under RPR4 that allow you to. This wasn't the case in this situation and you have a staffed security team, let them deal with threats, this is a very calm round.
2024-02-29 21:36:36: Reply from xzero314: Its also not like I am actively forcing myself into the sec team and hovering sec comms and wearing a bunch of sec gear. This was very much so a "somebody is being killed in engie and I am not doing anything else at this moment so I am going to check it out"
2024-02-29 21:37:56: Reply from bmon: Who was being killed in engineering?
2024-02-29 21:38:20: Reply from xzero314: Nobody actually was sorry that was just my thought process is what the quotes were for
2024-02-29 21:39:55: Reply from bmon: Okay, that's why this is an RPR4 issue. You weren't directly trying to save someone they were killing. That is however one of the precendents that would allow you to try to stop them but that isn't the case here
2024-02-29 21:41:51: Reply from xzero314: I understand the issue you have. I was under the impression the captain was "security" under rp rule 4 and I also think I had sufficient ic reasoning to go after them since the ai said I was a target. Also not even like a minute or two before this the CE was talking shaky on comms saying rubs was a heretic so when I heard rubs was back in engineering naturally the first thing I thought was the ce is being attacked. I will keep in mind from now on that the Captain is not security. I never intended to remove rubs from the round either.
2024-02-29 21:44:04: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I really dont think I broke the rules here. I think my ic reasoning was pretty fair. They had attacked several heads and the ai said they were targgeting me. I can understand calling me out as cringe for that though since its a green shift. I did have that in mind though I have no intention of removing them from the round I learned from my previous time being talked to over executing people
2024-02-29 21:46:30: Reply from bmon: The captain is given a lot more leeway compared to the rest of the crew but they are not security, you can't go chasing down threats as the captain unless it is in direct defense of someones life.<br />
<br />
Also the CE never had a "stuttery voice" or whatever you're saying, he did yell they were a heretic but that's probably because he saw them in the mainhallway with funny cloak I think? Hard to tell.
2024-02-29 21:48:25: Reply from xzero314: Roo'BS WITTH R'OMEROL...huuuhhh...Ich THE HERETI'I'C" and one message after that. My intent was very much so "somebody is being killed" If you were watching the encounter you would have even seen that as soon as I saw that wasnt the case I backed off and the CE handled it.
2024-02-29 21:49:16: Reply from bmon: That's a drunk stutter lmao<br />
<br />
guess it just doesn't show up in the chat logs
2024-02-29 21:50:08: Reply from xzero314: OK well you see where I am coming from here. I swear on my life I am not playing captain to just hunt valids with gamer gear and made every shift a white shift. I genuinly understand the concern.
2024-02-29 21:50:40: Reply from bmon: Your gear doesn't matter, it's the intention and actions. The captain is already well armed by default.
2024-02-29 21:52:33: Reply from xzero314: In all of the many rounds ive played Ive never been even hinted at that the captain shouldent be going after threats with security. heck I can recall my first or second time as spy the captain was waiting with sec in ambush for me in the MINING BASE. I fully thought the Captain was considered part of sec for rp rull 4 and I think even if we take me being captain out of the equation are people not allowed to try to deal with a heretic the ai has directly said is targetting them?
2024-02-29 21:53:17: Reply from bmon: Ahelp it! The captain is not apart of security and RPR4 applies to them.
2024-02-29 21:53:53: Reply from bmon: There are however some situations where it'd be more valid (such as having no security officers) but again that isn't the case here.
2024-02-29 21:54:50: Reply from xzero314: Ok but I was working on incomplete information that was reasonable. I thought somebody was being killed and I also thought the heretic was targetting me directrly
2024-02-29 21:56:39: Reply from bmon: Not really, no. At no point did the AI say they were killing someone.
2024-02-29 21:57:11: Ticket Opened by xzero314: No the ai said "They are targetting Clara" I made the mistake of thinking somebody was being killed in engineering when the ai all caps reported them in there
2024-02-29 21:57:22: Reply from bmon: Also not really sure why the AI thought you were their target? That's a rather wild claim for someone who can't really see targets
2024-02-29 21:57:42: Reply from bmon: Either way nothing they did indicated that you were their target
2024-02-29 21:57:42: Reply from xzero314: I have no idea. I assumed the ai had noticed them stalking me
2024-02-29 21:59:25: Reply from xzero314: You can argue all day that my ic reasonings were wrong but I had a resonable belief in them at the time that I was being targgetting by the heretic directly and that does allow me to take more direct action against them does it not?
2024-02-29 22:05:20: Reply from bmon: I am almost 100% sure the AI was highly mistaken about that or made that call off of very flimsy information. It's not enough for you to go out of your way to start chasing them unless they've wronged you
2024-02-29 22:05:25: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I have explained myself as best as I can. I really dont know what else to say. I wasnt just hunting for the sake of valid or "because I can" Rp rule four precedents also say "Actively hunting a threat involves seeking out or pursuing that threat outside the bounds of your normal reasonable play area." What is the captains reasonable play area here? the bridge or the entire station? There is also "The dead dog litmus test: Players may hunt specific threats or antagonists who have identifiably done something to wrong that particular player"I thought theyd attacked both the CE AND the HOP. I get giving me a yell and going hey dude thats kinda lame dont do that again. Which I wont be doing again. I really dont think I broke any rules here that warrent some kind of punishment
2024-02-29 22:06:06: Reply from bmon: It's not to act like security and they didn't wrong you in any way unless I have missed something here
2024-02-29 22:06:38: Reply from xzero314: I dont see how attacking my command members isnt wronging me personall in the same way attacking a pet would be
2024-02-29 22:06:53: Reply from xzero314: They are my reesponibility
2024-02-29 22:07:28: Reply from bmon: they didnt and even then no that's still not a valid reason unless you are directly trying to save thier life or they have gotten out of control where it has become a major global threat
2024-02-29 22:08:43: Reply from xzero314: But I WAS TRYING TO SAVE SOMEBODYS LIFE! as soon as I had a moment to judge the situation and saw that nobody was being attacked I backed off and the one that captured them was the ce basically on their own with sec helping
2024-02-29 22:09:21: Reply from bmon: The CE rushed into the room with you to kick their ass, what life needed saving exactly?<br />
<br />
Like the whole thing- I watched it play out
2024-02-29 22:09:48: Reply from xzero314: Thats what I am saying. I got there. saw rubs started shooting. saw that the ce wasnt infact being killed and stopped shooting and watched
2024-02-29 22:10:33: Reply from xzero314: I even switched off lethal which I was on at first by mistake
2024-02-29 22:11:39: Reply from bmon: That's not really what played out though, at least from my recollection.<br />
<br />
You rushed into the SM room with sec and the CE all together and started blasting Rubs. Again, you should have left it to security. The CE has more of an excuse since it's his department but you? no.
2024-02-29 22:14:06: Reply from xzero314: This is so ridiculous at this point. I think I have properly expalined why my ic reasons were good enough. You said the ai didnt have good enoug hreason to say I am a target but that is also an ic issue. all of this is an ic issue. I thought sombody was being murdered so I went. I thought I was a target of rubs so I had apersonal stake in making sure he was dealt with. Both of these points have a solid grounded in reason. YES you can argue that its only becuase I am dumb that I mistook the ces drunking speak for being attacked but thats still an IC ISSUE
2024-02-29 22:16:25: Ticket Opened by xzero314: Also Rubs still just ascended. my being involved did not end thier antagonist run or cause the round to suffer. Both of which are things I had in mind.
2024-02-29 22:18:31: Reply from bmon: Alright I am done here, this is an RPR 4 issue. As the captain you should leave it to security, they were at the time more than capable of dealing with it themselves and you shouldn't have interjected as the captain. You are not security, do not chase down antagonists unless there is a valid reason to be doing so under one of the precedents of RPR4.<br />
<br />
Also them ascending juset now is mostly due to security not really doing a good job at perma brigging them, oh well, doesn't really matter or pretain to the point I am trying to hammer home here for you.
2024-02-29 22:24:17: Reply from xzero314: I fully understand the point of why contacted me. I Will be taking it into account and I understand why you took issue with this and cited rp rule 4. I admit that I thought the captain was part of security for rp rule 4 however that is not the reason I took action. Even if incorrect in the end I had a reason to believe that somebody was being killed and so I took action. I also had a reason to believe I was a direct target. You stated that as the captain if I think somebody is being killed it allows me to take action. I thought somebody was being killed. After I learned I was wrong on the scene I stood back
2024-02-29 22:26:51: Reply from bmon: No one made any claims that anyone was being killed so it's a bit question mark for me.<br />
<br />
The AI saying they "think" you are their target is also a very flimsy reason to go out of your way to hunt them
2024-02-29 22:29:26: Reply from xzero314: a failuie at deductive reasoning at my part. I thought the CEs slurring speech was them being attacked by rubs and the ai called out their location in engineering in all caps. Its reasonable that I thought the ce was being killed. I think its unfair for you to just rule the ai saying I am a target isnt enough. I was told by the all seeing eye I am a target so I acted with that in mind
2024-02-29 22:30:32: Reply from bmon: Yeah the AI made a very poor judgement call but again unless they've taken action against you you shouldn't taking action against them
2024-02-29 22:31:05: Reply from bmon: Also key to this they said "think" not "you are"
2024-02-29 22:31:59: Reply from xzero314: There is the also the whole "This can also be applied to an assault of a character you've had significant interactions with, in the current round," I was in the middle of getting ready to give the ce a medal for showing up and saving the sm and then I get the impression they were just attacked right after arriving and saving the sm.
2024-02-29 22:32:32: Reply from xzero314: I had alot of ic reasoning for going after rubs even if it all turned out to be not correct due to working on limited info
2024-02-29 22:33:11: Reply from bmon: Really grasping at straws imo, that's not really the point of that part of the rule, and rubs didn't really wrong the CE besides them hacking into their department
---- No Further Messages ----
My main points.
Firstly: I disagree with the reason stated in for the note being left
Secondly; I think that you dismissed very valid in character reason for me to be going after the heretic DESPITE RPR4.
Third: Was I even breaking RPR4 at all?
I have played a lot of captain and security. I am not perfect by any means but I do always make a effort to keep the state of the round in mind when playing as these roles and handling antagonists. As I see it, the main point of your note is "Since you didn't quite understand that RPR4 applies to the captain when I first spoke with you this note is more of a reminder to you that you are expected to follow RPR4 unless you have a valid reason not to under one of the listed precedents of that rule."
From what I understand the point you are trying to get across with this note is "Why is the captain hunting a heretic on a green star with a staffed sec team" I think during our conversation I made it clear I understood why you had issues with that. My argument was and is that I had sufficient in character reason to be hunting this heretic despite being wrong about the captain being part of the security team (an entire other debate). The Captain and sec generally should be keeping in mind "if we get rid of all the Antags the round becomes boring and everybody loses"
We could probably discuss forever about the Duty and role of the Captain. What is and isnt their direct duty? A large part of why I felt it needed to be on top of the heretic situation despite the green star and why I think its entirely justified for me to have gone after this heretic is the AI saying they thought the heretic was targeting me directly. They said as much on sec comms and and I chalked it up to the ai being able to see more than I can "so obviously they saw the heretic is stalking me waiting to get me" was my thought process here. Not something youd be super cool letting go even without being the cap or security and a fairly grounded in round IC reason to be wanting to get this heretic.
At the time that the ai called out the heretics location. I was under the belief that the heretic had already attacked TWO of my heads of staff. It is true I was wrong about part of this. Only one head had been attacked so far (the hop). The CE had not been attacked yet. I had a good IC reason to believe so. I mistook the CE's drunken slurs on comms (What they were saying on comms is important here. They were slurring out the identity of the heretic so it isn't even that insane of a mistake of mine to have made) for actively being attacked by said heretic. You dismissed my point about this during the ticket. I had thought two of my heads of staff were attacked. Is the command department not my responsibility? This from my point of view involved me personally since "hey they've already gotten two and gotten away whos to say sec will be able to stop the next one? Whos to say I am not next?"
You also dismissed my actions in engineering and my restraint. From what I gather and please feel free to tell me if this is not the case. You seemed to give the impression that because when I arrived in engineering and the ce was not under attack at the very moment that I shouldn't have been there at all. Well that was all stuff I was learning and acting on in the moment. Arriving in the sm room I completely missed the ce in the "right if front of my face section" and carried on to the emitter room where the heretic was and started blasting. Then the Ce comes into the scene and sec starts coming in from the flank. At that point I just watched. The CE and Sec handled it and then you boinked me and we spent the rest of the round discussing this.
Another reason for me making this appeal is I was encouraged to by another admin (that did NOT HAVE THE ENTIRE CONTEXT) who disagreed with the idea of the Captain not being part of security as per RPR4. The Captain gets a mindshield and is meta protected from rolling Antag. I am holding myself to the standard that all sec players should be playing by so am I not a member of the security of the station?
So to summarize. I think the reason you stated you left the note at all isnt true, I still am understanding of why I had to argue an IC reason for this given the context of the captain not being excused from RPR4. AND even if I was incorrect about the Captain being allowed to act as security (I certainly hold myself to sec standards as cap) then I had IC REASON to go after this heretic and thus this note has no reason to be placed.
At the end the ticket you stated you think I am grasping at straws but from my point of view it was the opposite. It felt like I was coming up with justifications one after another only for them to be hand waived as "not good enough" despite all of my actions having IC backing.
Ban/note type: Note
note length: Indefinite
Note Reason:
As the captain chased down a heretic with the rest of sec who's location was called out by the AI. No life was directly under threat nor did the AI claim anything of the such. Since you didn't quite understand that RPR4 applies to the captain when I first spoke with you this note is more of a reminder to you that you are expected to follow RPR4 unless you have a valid reason not to under one of the listed precendents of that rule. It's best to leave chasing down antags to security, especially when there is a staffed sec team and the round is calm.
Server you were playing on: Manuel
Round ID:224825
Why are you making this appeal?
I would like to see the note overturned. I also believe that the note is not reflective of my understanding of the situation.
The Appeal:
So the note itself and the reason that it was left was cited as me having broken RPR 4 in hunting the heretic to engineering. I would like to open this appeal with the full ticket and our discussion that we had.
From Ticket #4 during round 224825 on Manuel:
---- Log Begins ----
2024-02-29 21:25:11: Ticket Opened by bmon: Hi there. What lead you to being in engineering?
2024-02-29 21:25:57: Reply from xzero314: the ai said rubs was in engineering. Rubs was also called out as a heretic by two heads so I was using my access to help sec get in and help the chase
2024-02-29 21:26:12: Reply from xzero314: They even specified "emitter room"
2024-02-29 21:26:30: Reply from bmon: Why are you as the captain dealing with that?
2024-02-29 21:27:45: Reply from xzero314: Hold on here. Am I not allowed to as the captain of the station try to help deal with the threats that come up? this was like a standard thing. Rubs tried to kill my hop
2024-02-29 21:28:11: Ticket Opened by xzero314: The ai also said they suspect I am a target
2024-02-29 21:28:28: Reply from bmon: It's a lot less excusable when you have a staff security team and the round has been rather slow
2024-02-29 21:29:37: Reply from xzero314: I never had rubs ordered to be executed and I actually on my life was going to be telling sec to implant them and send them on their way. Attempted murder and all that. Trust me I do take the round into account as Captain
2024-02-29 21:30:30: Reply from bmon: What? This has never been about anyone ordering their execution. The issue is you as the captain are acting as security, this is an RP Rule 4 issue.
2024-02-29 21:32:13: Reply from xzero314: I honestly disagree. The captain is part of the security chain and I was also signalled out as one of their targets. They also attacked multiple of my heads of staff. I was entirely justified to take action. Its not like I busted out the antique.
2024-02-29 21:32:40: Reply from bmon: Well I am here to tell you that the captain indeed not security, this is pretty well established.
2024-02-29 21:33:02: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I also didnt just drop everything to actively hunt them so thats not true. I went to where I heard an active heretic murdering was going down
2024-02-29 21:34:22: Reply from xzero314: I think my IC reasons were sufficient. I was signalled as one of their targets and they attacked the hop and CE. heads I am responsible for. I will keep it in mind however as I understand the Captain isnt meant to chase down everything that pops up and the issue you have is that it was a green shift.
2024-02-29 21:34:23: Reply from bmon: It's not your job to be chasing down threats unless it falls under one of the precendents under RPR4 that allow you to. This wasn't the case in this situation and you have a staffed security team, let them deal with threats, this is a very calm round.
2024-02-29 21:36:36: Reply from xzero314: Its also not like I am actively forcing myself into the sec team and hovering sec comms and wearing a bunch of sec gear. This was very much so a "somebody is being killed in engie and I am not doing anything else at this moment so I am going to check it out"
2024-02-29 21:37:56: Reply from bmon: Who was being killed in engineering?
2024-02-29 21:38:20: Reply from xzero314: Nobody actually was sorry that was just my thought process is what the quotes were for
2024-02-29 21:39:55: Reply from bmon: Okay, that's why this is an RPR4 issue. You weren't directly trying to save someone they were killing. That is however one of the precendents that would allow you to try to stop them but that isn't the case here
2024-02-29 21:41:51: Reply from xzero314: I understand the issue you have. I was under the impression the captain was "security" under rp rule 4 and I also think I had sufficient ic reasoning to go after them since the ai said I was a target. Also not even like a minute or two before this the CE was talking shaky on comms saying rubs was a heretic so when I heard rubs was back in engineering naturally the first thing I thought was the ce is being attacked. I will keep in mind from now on that the Captain is not security. I never intended to remove rubs from the round either.
2024-02-29 21:44:04: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I really dont think I broke the rules here. I think my ic reasoning was pretty fair. They had attacked several heads and the ai said they were targgeting me. I can understand calling me out as cringe for that though since its a green shift. I did have that in mind though I have no intention of removing them from the round I learned from my previous time being talked to over executing people
2024-02-29 21:46:30: Reply from bmon: The captain is given a lot more leeway compared to the rest of the crew but they are not security, you can't go chasing down threats as the captain unless it is in direct defense of someones life.<br />
<br />
Also the CE never had a "stuttery voice" or whatever you're saying, he did yell they were a heretic but that's probably because he saw them in the mainhallway with funny cloak I think? Hard to tell.
2024-02-29 21:48:25: Reply from xzero314: Roo'BS WITTH R'OMEROL...huuuhhh...Ich THE HERETI'I'C" and one message after that. My intent was very much so "somebody is being killed" If you were watching the encounter you would have even seen that as soon as I saw that wasnt the case I backed off and the CE handled it.
2024-02-29 21:49:16: Reply from bmon: That's a drunk stutter lmao<br />
<br />
guess it just doesn't show up in the chat logs
2024-02-29 21:50:08: Reply from xzero314: OK well you see where I am coming from here. I swear on my life I am not playing captain to just hunt valids with gamer gear and made every shift a white shift. I genuinly understand the concern.
2024-02-29 21:50:40: Reply from bmon: Your gear doesn't matter, it's the intention and actions. The captain is already well armed by default.
2024-02-29 21:52:33: Reply from xzero314: In all of the many rounds ive played Ive never been even hinted at that the captain shouldent be going after threats with security. heck I can recall my first or second time as spy the captain was waiting with sec in ambush for me in the MINING BASE. I fully thought the Captain was considered part of sec for rp rull 4 and I think even if we take me being captain out of the equation are people not allowed to try to deal with a heretic the ai has directly said is targetting them?
2024-02-29 21:53:17: Reply from bmon: Ahelp it! The captain is not apart of security and RPR4 applies to them.
2024-02-29 21:53:53: Reply from bmon: There are however some situations where it'd be more valid (such as having no security officers) but again that isn't the case here.
2024-02-29 21:54:50: Reply from xzero314: Ok but I was working on incomplete information that was reasonable. I thought somebody was being killed and I also thought the heretic was targetting me directrly
2024-02-29 21:56:39: Reply from bmon: Not really, no. At no point did the AI say they were killing someone.
2024-02-29 21:57:11: Ticket Opened by xzero314: No the ai said "They are targetting Clara" I made the mistake of thinking somebody was being killed in engineering when the ai all caps reported them in there
2024-02-29 21:57:22: Reply from bmon: Also not really sure why the AI thought you were their target? That's a rather wild claim for someone who can't really see targets
2024-02-29 21:57:42: Reply from bmon: Either way nothing they did indicated that you were their target
2024-02-29 21:57:42: Reply from xzero314: I have no idea. I assumed the ai had noticed them stalking me
2024-02-29 21:59:25: Reply from xzero314: You can argue all day that my ic reasonings were wrong but I had a resonable belief in them at the time that I was being targgetting by the heretic directly and that does allow me to take more direct action against them does it not?
2024-02-29 22:05:20: Reply from bmon: I am almost 100% sure the AI was highly mistaken about that or made that call off of very flimsy information. It's not enough for you to go out of your way to start chasing them unless they've wronged you
2024-02-29 22:05:25: Ticket Opened by xzero314: I have explained myself as best as I can. I really dont know what else to say. I wasnt just hunting for the sake of valid or "because I can" Rp rule four precedents also say "Actively hunting a threat involves seeking out or pursuing that threat outside the bounds of your normal reasonable play area." What is the captains reasonable play area here? the bridge or the entire station? There is also "The dead dog litmus test: Players may hunt specific threats or antagonists who have identifiably done something to wrong that particular player"I thought theyd attacked both the CE AND the HOP. I get giving me a yell and going hey dude thats kinda lame dont do that again. Which I wont be doing again. I really dont think I broke any rules here that warrent some kind of punishment
2024-02-29 22:06:06: Reply from bmon: It's not to act like security and they didn't wrong you in any way unless I have missed something here
2024-02-29 22:06:38: Reply from xzero314: I dont see how attacking my command members isnt wronging me personall in the same way attacking a pet would be
2024-02-29 22:06:53: Reply from xzero314: They are my reesponibility
2024-02-29 22:07:28: Reply from bmon: they didnt and even then no that's still not a valid reason unless you are directly trying to save thier life or they have gotten out of control where it has become a major global threat
2024-02-29 22:08:43: Reply from xzero314: But I WAS TRYING TO SAVE SOMEBODYS LIFE! as soon as I had a moment to judge the situation and saw that nobody was being attacked I backed off and the one that captured them was the ce basically on their own with sec helping
2024-02-29 22:09:21: Reply from bmon: The CE rushed into the room with you to kick their ass, what life needed saving exactly?<br />
<br />
Like the whole thing- I watched it play out
2024-02-29 22:09:48: Reply from xzero314: Thats what I am saying. I got there. saw rubs started shooting. saw that the ce wasnt infact being killed and stopped shooting and watched
2024-02-29 22:10:33: Reply from xzero314: I even switched off lethal which I was on at first by mistake
2024-02-29 22:11:39: Reply from bmon: That's not really what played out though, at least from my recollection.<br />
<br />
You rushed into the SM room with sec and the CE all together and started blasting Rubs. Again, you should have left it to security. The CE has more of an excuse since it's his department but you? no.
2024-02-29 22:14:06: Reply from xzero314: This is so ridiculous at this point. I think I have properly expalined why my ic reasons were good enough. You said the ai didnt have good enoug hreason to say I am a target but that is also an ic issue. all of this is an ic issue. I thought sombody was being murdered so I went. I thought I was a target of rubs so I had apersonal stake in making sure he was dealt with. Both of these points have a solid grounded in reason. YES you can argue that its only becuase I am dumb that I mistook the ces drunking speak for being attacked but thats still an IC ISSUE
2024-02-29 22:16:25: Ticket Opened by xzero314: Also Rubs still just ascended. my being involved did not end thier antagonist run or cause the round to suffer. Both of which are things I had in mind.
2024-02-29 22:18:31: Reply from bmon: Alright I am done here, this is an RPR 4 issue. As the captain you should leave it to security, they were at the time more than capable of dealing with it themselves and you shouldn't have interjected as the captain. You are not security, do not chase down antagonists unless there is a valid reason to be doing so under one of the precedents of RPR4.<br />
<br />
Also them ascending juset now is mostly due to security not really doing a good job at perma brigging them, oh well, doesn't really matter or pretain to the point I am trying to hammer home here for you.
2024-02-29 22:24:17: Reply from xzero314: I fully understand the point of why contacted me. I Will be taking it into account and I understand why you took issue with this and cited rp rule 4. I admit that I thought the captain was part of security for rp rule 4 however that is not the reason I took action. Even if incorrect in the end I had a reason to believe that somebody was being killed and so I took action. I also had a reason to believe I was a direct target. You stated that as the captain if I think somebody is being killed it allows me to take action. I thought somebody was being killed. After I learned I was wrong on the scene I stood back
2024-02-29 22:26:51: Reply from bmon: No one made any claims that anyone was being killed so it's a bit question mark for me.<br />
<br />
The AI saying they "think" you are their target is also a very flimsy reason to go out of your way to hunt them
2024-02-29 22:29:26: Reply from xzero314: a failuie at deductive reasoning at my part. I thought the CEs slurring speech was them being attacked by rubs and the ai called out their location in engineering in all caps. Its reasonable that I thought the ce was being killed. I think its unfair for you to just rule the ai saying I am a target isnt enough. I was told by the all seeing eye I am a target so I acted with that in mind
2024-02-29 22:30:32: Reply from bmon: Yeah the AI made a very poor judgement call but again unless they've taken action against you you shouldn't taking action against them
2024-02-29 22:31:05: Reply from bmon: Also key to this they said "think" not "you are"
2024-02-29 22:31:59: Reply from xzero314: There is the also the whole "This can also be applied to an assault of a character you've had significant interactions with, in the current round," I was in the middle of getting ready to give the ce a medal for showing up and saving the sm and then I get the impression they were just attacked right after arriving and saving the sm.
2024-02-29 22:32:32: Reply from xzero314: I had alot of ic reasoning for going after rubs even if it all turned out to be not correct due to working on limited info
2024-02-29 22:33:11: Reply from bmon: Really grasping at straws imo, that's not really the point of that part of the rule, and rubs didn't really wrong the CE besides them hacking into their department
---- No Further Messages ----
My main points.
Firstly: I disagree with the reason stated in for the note being left
Secondly; I think that you dismissed very valid in character reason for me to be going after the heretic DESPITE RPR4.
Third: Was I even breaking RPR4 at all?
I have played a lot of captain and security. I am not perfect by any means but I do always make a effort to keep the state of the round in mind when playing as these roles and handling antagonists. As I see it, the main point of your note is "Since you didn't quite understand that RPR4 applies to the captain when I first spoke with you this note is more of a reminder to you that you are expected to follow RPR4 unless you have a valid reason not to under one of the listed precedents of that rule."
From what I understand the point you are trying to get across with this note is "Why is the captain hunting a heretic on a green star with a staffed sec team" I think during our conversation I made it clear I understood why you had issues with that. My argument was and is that I had sufficient in character reason to be hunting this heretic despite being wrong about the captain being part of the security team (an entire other debate). The Captain and sec generally should be keeping in mind "if we get rid of all the Antags the round becomes boring and everybody loses"
We could probably discuss forever about the Duty and role of the Captain. What is and isnt their direct duty? A large part of why I felt it needed to be on top of the heretic situation despite the green star and why I think its entirely justified for me to have gone after this heretic is the AI saying they thought the heretic was targeting me directly. They said as much on sec comms and and I chalked it up to the ai being able to see more than I can "so obviously they saw the heretic is stalking me waiting to get me" was my thought process here. Not something youd be super cool letting go even without being the cap or security and a fairly grounded in round IC reason to be wanting to get this heretic.
At the time that the ai called out the heretics location. I was under the belief that the heretic had already attacked TWO of my heads of staff. It is true I was wrong about part of this. Only one head had been attacked so far (the hop). The CE had not been attacked yet. I had a good IC reason to believe so. I mistook the CE's drunken slurs on comms (What they were saying on comms is important here. They were slurring out the identity of the heretic so it isn't even that insane of a mistake of mine to have made) for actively being attacked by said heretic. You dismissed my point about this during the ticket. I had thought two of my heads of staff were attacked. Is the command department not my responsibility? This from my point of view involved me personally since "hey they've already gotten two and gotten away whos to say sec will be able to stop the next one? Whos to say I am not next?"
You also dismissed my actions in engineering and my restraint. From what I gather and please feel free to tell me if this is not the case. You seemed to give the impression that because when I arrived in engineering and the ce was not under attack at the very moment that I shouldn't have been there at all. Well that was all stuff I was learning and acting on in the moment. Arriving in the sm room I completely missed the ce in the "right if front of my face section" and carried on to the emitter room where the heretic was and started blasting. Then the Ce comes into the scene and sec starts coming in from the flank. At that point I just watched. The CE and Sec handled it and then you boinked me and we spent the rest of the round discussing this.
Another reason for me making this appeal is I was encouraged to by another admin (that did NOT HAVE THE ENTIRE CONTEXT) who disagreed with the idea of the Captain not being part of security as per RPR4. The Captain gets a mindshield and is meta protected from rolling Antag. I am holding myself to the standard that all sec players should be playing by so am I not a member of the security of the station?
So to summarize. I think the reason you stated you left the note at all isnt true, I still am understanding of why I had to argue an IC reason for this given the context of the captain not being excused from RPR4. AND even if I was incorrect about the Captain being allowed to act as security (I certainly hold myself to sec standards as cap) then I had IC REASON to go after this heretic and thus this note has no reason to be placed.
At the end the ticket you stated you think I am grasping at straws but from my point of view it was the opposite. It felt like I was coming up with justifications one after another only for them to be hand waived as "not good enough" despite all of my actions having IC backing.