[Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

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FedhasMadash
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[Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by FedhasMadash » #88050

Byond account and character name:
FedhasMadash
William(?) Eggbert (It was a random name, can't quite recall)

Banning admin:
Scones

Ban type (What are you banned from?):
Gameban; 4320
Science; Presumably permanent?

Ban reason
Blew three Asimov borgs during Nuke because 'they were not responding to orders'

Time ban was placed (including time zone):

Roughly 1:00AM Eastern Standard

Relevant Logs:
Spoiler:
[Common] William Eggbert says, "It may be a hunch, but the AI is likely subverted or dead."
William Eggbert says, "It may be a hunch, but the AI is likely subverted or dead."
[Common] Holly Miller says, "Ai is definitely dead"
[Common] MC Honk Deez Nutz says, "It's probably dead."
[Common] William Eggbert says, "A silicon has likely locked down my office."
William Eggbert says, "A silicon has likely locked down my office."
[Common] Dewey Crowe says, "Someone call the shuttle"
[Common] Kellen Dweeb says, "Ai open"
You begin to unscrew the window from the frame...
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "FUCK"
You unfasten the window from the frame.
You begin to lever the window out of the frame...
[Common] Edgar Price exclaims, "Borg!"
You pry the window out of the frame.
You begin to unscrew the frame from the floor...
You unfasten the frame from the floor.
You begin to disassemble the reinforced window...
You successfully disassemble the reinforced window.
Sprigg Spooly unfastens the grille.
You start climbing onto the table...
Sprigg Spooly puts the screwdriver into the toolbelt.
[Common] Garithos Humies says, "Nuke spaced"
You climb onto the table.
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "SHIT"
[Common] Kellen Dweeb says, "S i got a ops cornerd"
[Common] William Eggbert asks, "I've locked down the borgs. Is there any confirmation the borgs are hostile?"
William Eggbert asks, "I've locked down the borgs. Is there any confirmation the borgs are hostile?"
Sprigg Spooly says, "What are you..."
[Common] William Eggbert says, "Ahem, they, even."
William Eggbert says, "Ahem, they, even."
Sprigg Spooly asks, "Doing?"
[Common] William Eggbert says, "That's all I needed."
William Eggbert says, "That's all I needed."
Dick Scale says, "SAVING THE AI."
[Common] Dewey Crowe says, "BOMB ON BRIDGE"
William Eggbert says, "Please force the power."
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "MOTHERFUCKER"
William Eggbert says, "And remove AI control."
[Science] Gabe Horn says, "Everyone who wants a bomb, come to Toxins. 1st come, 1st serve."
[Common] E.D.I. states, "Nathaniel King has signed up as Cargo Technician."
William Eggbert says, "Thank you, doctor."
*---------*
This is Dick Scale!
He is wearing an engineering hardsuit.
He has an engineering dufflebag on his back.
He is holding a wirecutters in his left hand.
He is holding an oxygen tank in his right hand.
He has a toolbelt about his waist.
He has a gas mask on his face.
He has Engineering Scanner Goggles covering his eyes.
He has an engineering radio headset on his ears.
He is wearing PDA-Dick Scale (Station Engineer).
He has minor burns.
*---------*
ÿResearch Director's Desk requests console exclaims, "New minerals available!"
A holographic image of E.D.I. flicks to life right before your eyes!
ÿResearch Director's Desk requests console exclaims, "New minerals available!"
[Science] Ameris Santraeger exclaims, "Perfect!"
Dick Scale says, "I FEEX."
ÿResearch Director's Desk requests console exclaims, "New minerals available!"
E.D.I. declares, "please stop attempting to destroy my cyborgs!"
Sprigg Spooly says, "AI please go."
ÿResearch Director's Desk requests console exclaims, "New minerals available!"
E.D.I. declares, "humans are so stupid!"
William Eggbert says, "You're a bit late."
William Eggbert says, "I had them locked down."
E.D.I. states, "why would you destroy my perfectly helpful helpers."
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Scones: Hey, you got a moment?
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "MOTHERFUCKER"
William Eggbert says, "You responded by cutting me off, and unlocking them."
[Science] Ophie Schlange says, "These are suicide bombs. We'd better attach them with a good trigger."
E.D.I. declares, "they have bene doing nothing but good!"
Dick Scale asks, "Wait, you weren't destroyed?"
ÿResearch Director's Desk requests console exclaims, "New minerals available!"
Dick Scale says, "You've been awful quiet for something that hasn't."
Dick Scale says, "Ugh."
E.D.I. declares, "you are all fools and may have killed yourselves and countless other humans!"
[Science] Gabe Horn says, "You can attach timers to them if you wish."
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "TITS"
Dick Scale knocks on the window.
Sprigg Spooly says, "You did the right thing."
PM to-Admins: Certainly! I suspect I know what this is about, so I'll get to it. Had them locked down, and inquired, AI forced off power in the office and unlocked them without saying anything. Continued forcing off power. I might have been hasty to blow them this time but it seemed legitimate with the Operatives aboard.
Sprigg Spooly says, "The AI went quiet for too long."
[Science] Ameris Santraeger says, "I used remote signallers."
PM to-Admins: If that was a bad call I'll take what I'm given.
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "MOTHERFUCKER"
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Scones: Why did you lock them during nuke without trying to communicate with the AI? You just blew like, what, 3 asimov borgs?
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
[Common] Oldman Robustin says, "COCKSUCKER"
[Common] Harrison Blaine asks, "Can whoever is in the bridge toggle the blast doors a few times?"
[Common] Tzargav Romanov exclaims, "Toggle the blast doors!"
[Common] E.D.I. states, "Steven Moore has signed up as Chemist."
PM to-Admins: The door to my office was stealthbolted, so we broke in and locked them down in order to get the whole picture. AI wasn't responding to orders according to the crew.
[Command] Angelo Rose says, "Hey genetics blew up"
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Scones: There were confirmed nuclear operatives and the cyborgs were helping to fight them as best they could. I'm going to be apply a three day server ban for the cyborgs and a seperate Science ban you can appeal at a later date while you think about why you blew Asimov silicons with CONFIRMED NUKE.
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
You have been banned by scones.
Reason: Blew three Asimov borgs during Nuke because 'they were not responding to orders'
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 4320 minutes.
To try to resolve this matter head to https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=7
Your side of the story:

So I'm not really even contesting the gameban, that's due justice for the borgs I suppose. However its description is vague and seems selected to make my actions malicious instead of a genuine mistake. I'd have liked to explain myself further but it's certainly Scones' right to choose whether I get that chance in-game. I blew them because there were confirmed operatives, and the AI was responding to the crew in a limited enough manner that most thought it was dead, then acting in a manner that lead me to believe it was subverted. After hearing cries on the radio about OPs and the situation on the bridge I went to my office (in order to lock down science because of the boarding party) and found it bolted with the bolt-lights removed; a pre-emptive effort by the silicons to prevent anyone accessing those consoles.

At this point I'm curious regarding the AI.
I asked about my door over the radio and received no response; so myself and a roboticist removed the window, got in, and locked down the borgs. Immediately the AI unlocked them and cut power to the room. This is the first sign to anyone that it's in fact still functioning. In all this time it hasn't said anything to dismiss my questions over the general radio, or interacted with any other crew that I could see. An engineer cut access and I, perhaps hastily, blew the borgs after fighting with the AI to lock them down again.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

I understand silicon players are busy, but if it had responded to us by any means instead of silently, pre-emptively disrupting our efforts to investigate I wouldn't have blown them.
I'm also fairly certain it was only two borgs, but it's sort of senseless for me to push technicalities. Blown is still blown.
It only showed up to call us idiots when its borgs were actually gone, shortly after which I spoke to/was banned by Scones.

In all my years of playing SS13 this is perhaps the first time I've screwed the pooch enough to get a jobban; I'm definitely apologetic for jumping to conclusions like that and don't see any injustice in being punished for it. Honestly all I really want to know is when or if I can appeal the science ban; and that this might as well be the appeal for whenever it is that time comes.

Cheers, thanks for your time.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by NikNakFlak » #88101

Any AI that stealthbolts the RD office is suspicious on its own and the AI said jack crap until its borgs got blown and suddenly it was very responsive. I also do not agree with the fact thay "confirmed nuke" is a reason for this ban. "Confirmed nuke" means nothing to the player at hand and the AI can be subverted by the agents anyway, I've seen it before.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by peoplearestrange » #88104

I'll direct Scones to the thread, it seems like a more in depth situation.
Whatever
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Ikarrus » #88110

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wc6858jw4qbmqlh/log.txt?dl=0

I've spoken with Scones and looked over the logs and I fully agree with NikNak.

Although the situation was unfortunate, the RD made every attempt to lock down the borgs first and tried to communicate with the AI.

The AI kept unlocking the borgs without communicating back to the RD, and if I was in his situation I'd probably blow them, too.

What the game mode is shouldn't matter anyways, as that implies a demand to play with metaknowledge.

FedhasMadash has been playing with us for a few months now and he has Zero negative player history and clean notes up until this incident. He seems like an alright player and I think he deserves some slack.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Ikarrus » #88112

<Scones> In fact I died because of it
Yeah, I don't think scones should be handing this ban out if he playing and was affected by the incident.

Weren't there any other admins online?
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Scones » #88114

[Common] William Eggbert asks, "I've locked down the borgs. Is there any confirmation the borgs are hostile?"
[Common] William Eggbert says, "Ahem, they, even."
[Common] William Eggbert says, "That's all I needed."
Silence is not a confirmation regarding the hostility of borgs.

My main issue here is that you had the start of reasonable suspicion regarding the borgs being rogue (Considering the office was stealthbolted) but nothing further. Nobody on the radio indicated that they were rogue - In fact, for the most part, they were helping the crew. An Engiborg and the Clown managed to steal the nuke and space it. I'm guessing the AI unlocked the borgs because they were still actively helping the crew.

I will concede that the AI was incredibly suspect and more or less also responsible for this so I'm going to try to direct them here. My best guess is that they were trying to stop operatives getting into Science, as they also stealthbolted some other stuff. But blowing borgs because they 'might' be hostile when nobody has said anything to the effect of BORG KILLING ME does not sit right with me. Blowing borgs should be a last resort and I don't think that the master AI being noncommunicative is a reason to do so, even if it's unlocking them. Nobody ever hinted that they might be rogue.

I think blowing the borgs was rash and done without enough information. They were really obviously on the crew's side right up until they exploded. I'm willing to reduce the Science ban as it was a placeholder timer but I'd prefer the server ban to stay, especially considering that a couple people got hit in the blasts.

Ikarrus wrote:Yeah, I don't think scones should be handing this ban out if he playing and was affected by the incident.

Weren't there any other admins online?
TechnoAlchemist, maybe Skorvold. I got caught in the outer radius of a blast and considering I was already about to die it pretty much didn't matter.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Mandurrh » #88134

Admin PM from-Scones: There were confirmed nuclear operatives and the cyborgs were helping to fight them as best they could. I'm going to be apply a three day server ban for the cyborgs and a seperate Science ban you can appeal at a later date while you think about why you blew Asimov silicons with CONFIRMED NUKE.

Can nukeops not get https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Syndicate_ ... oad_Module ?
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by FedhasMadash » #88159

Scones wrote:
[Common] William Eggbert asks, "I've locked down the borgs. Is there any confirmation the borgs are hostile?"
[Common] William Eggbert says, "Ahem, they, even."
[Common] William Eggbert says, "That's all I needed."
Let me start by addressing this snippet; the "That's all I needed" was in response to the AI starting to panic and forcebolt/cut power to the room, not merely because it was quiet.

I'm still not intending to contest the gameban, my only goal is to have the science ban defined in real terms, so I I don't really have much to say to the rest other than that I agree with your judgement about it being hasty.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Skorvold » #88211

I was on and playing detective when a cyborg dragging me to medbay was blown, it didn't kill or even really hurt me I think, and the borgs didn't seem too pissed off about it.

It was a hasty action, but it was also a really stupid situation where OPs were running rampant and had already ultimately failed at their objective and were very unpredictable. Server ban was good enough. Nearly every admin on was either part of the nuke team or a member of security at the time.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by whodaloo » #88383

Mandurrh wrote:Admin PM from-Scones: There were confirmed nuclear operatives and the cyborgs were helping to fight them as best they could. I'm going to be apply a three day server ban for the cyborgs and a seperate Science ban you can appeal at a later date while you think about why you blew Asimov silicons with CONFIRMED NUKE.

Can nukeops not get https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Syndicate_ ... oad_Module ?
Operatives are able to buy the hacked freeform board, yeah.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by FedhasMadash » #88449

So as far as I can tell I'm still going to be banned from science, which is certainly understandable...

However the lack of any response regarding what this 'place-holder' ban is to be 'reduced' to, (as well as the near-universal condemnation from other administrators and questionable handling of the facts by Scones) has me feeling a bit more indignant than I did at first. The ruling admin was obviously uninterested in hearing my story during the round and seems content to let the ban run its course without much discussion. I'm certain they've been online and seen the thread in the time since their sole post; a sole post based entirely on a flawed assumption they could have easily tested had they spent more than a few seconds investigating.

If the AI's actions and evasion don't count as "anything further," I'm not certain under what standards you want us to judge silicons. Would this be an issue if I'd said "AI; Law 2, explain my door" and it stayed silent? Stealthbolting and feigning death were the seeds of my suspicion. Reacting in the way it did to nonharmful investigation and maintaining that silence in the face of not only my, but multiple crew's, questions and pleas was the conclusion. Given the way it was acting I'd almost believe it was intentionally misleading us to cause this exact scenario; it was obviously aware from the first moment of what we were attempting to do.

Reducing my argument to vagaries while reaching for any possible reason to justify the AI's disruptive behavior is frankly nonsensical. If they're also responsible for the situation why aren't they sharing in my punishment? Not every silicon-player is foolish enough to allow their borgs to get caught over the radio, and likewise, just because someone screams "BORG ROGUE" doesn't mean that's clean-cut either. I gathered the information I was capable of gathering at the moment with the thought that it was a decision that needed making immediately once the AI started fighting me for control; and obviously had no way of knowing every borg's specific good deeds during the round. I also fail to see why the AI stealthbolting other critical infrastructure while neglecting to inform (and blatantly ignoring) the crew somehow excuses such ridiculously shifty actions.

Are the specifics of my jobban being held hostage until the AI-player in question arrives to contribute?
(And if this is the case, I don't see what they'll tell us that the logs haven't)
Until my gameban expires?
Why couldn't the persons involved be questioned in-game?

I think it's more than fair that I've taken the gameban on the lip and quietly accepted judgement on the jobban until now. Murder is murder, borg or not.
That said, I'd like to politely request an objective ruling on the science ban; preferably from a third party.

I'm rather confused and while I might come across as caustic I hope you can understand my frustration.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by NikNakFlak » #88459

We'll get this straightened out soon. There is some "back and forth" debate between admins so we might get a headmin to weigh on this. Sorry this is taking so long.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Ikarrus » #88467

Scones isn't budging on the ban so a head admin will have to come in and make a call.

Whenever they can be bothered to come, that is.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by FedhasMadash » #88471

Jeez...

I just want to know how long I'll be banned in terms that aren't "go have a good long think about what you did; play a guessing game on when I'll forgive you."

Is that too much?

I'll stop spilling my salt over the table then. Thank you all for taking the time to hear me out.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by lumipharon » #88478

Stealth bolted RD office during nuke ops is a pretty good indication of a hostile AI.
Locking them down on that while you try see if they're actually rogue seems perfectly reasonable.
The AI repeatedly makin efforts to stop you locking them down, while making zero effort to communicate in any way, is 10/10 suspicious shit. Blowing borgs exists fir whenyou can't lock them down. This was that exact situation, and I think it would not be unreasonable for any player to believe the AI was rogue when it was doing shit like that.

Not having any 100% concrete proof that the borgs are murdering people in the halls or something is dumb - The AI could be controlling comms with a blackout or just mute scripts, or it could be non overtly helping the ops.

If the AI had just said 'stop, I'm not rogue" or anything to that effect, a ban would have a bit more ground.

But how can you blame the guy that made the effort to try communicate with the AI and non harmfully lock down the borgs?
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Stickymayhem » #88485

I'm away right now.

I've read the thread and I'd like to see this lifted. Though it's a borderline situation we'd like to move further from a Reliance in meta to make reasonable decisions than towards it.

I don't have access to ss13 so anyone with the permissions please go ahead and unban them. I'll make further comment layer today when I'm not on a train with sporadic connection.
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Re: [Scones] FedhasMadash - Borgs Blown During Nuke OPs

Post by Sometinyprick » #88491

Lifted.

This is a clear cut case of the AI being suspicious as fuck, you had plenty of reasons to believe you were about to get fucked over.
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