[jud1c470r] Tzargav Romanov

[Xargav]

Byond account and character name: Xargav/Tzargav Romanov
Banning admin: jud1c470r
Ban type (What are you banned from?): banned from bagil
Ban reason and length: Killed someone who was voicing dissent but not actively hurting the station, also caused the patient said person was treating to die. 1 day
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 6:37:40 PM CST
Your side of the story: I was the captain that round. As the round progressed, the HoS along with half the crew went into open revolt against the station and NT by abandoning their duties and leaving aboard a recovered shuttle. The HoS caused this split in the crew to be a hostile one by arresting me for arresting the leader of the splinter movement, then taking all of the sec hardsuits and the entire armory with her to the rebel ship. I ahelped, saying that there is no way in hell that a loyalty implanted HoS should be able to stun and arrest the captain like that, let alone take all of the equipment to an enemy of the station. jud1c470r informed me that in this case it is to be allowed, as now the round was an event revolving around this conflict. I took this to mean there was a precedent set that this round was going to be more flexible than others. So this guy starts screaming over comms (after the rebel ship left) about how he wishes he was a rebel and wanted NT to burn. As he already had a run in with the law for killing Ian, this kind of speech especially in a time of civil war was not to be tolerated, and the guy was eliminated. He had been warned that if he felt NT was bad to leave on the ship, and had not done so. He was further warned that such speech against NT was not to be tolerated. A point I will concede is that while talking to jud1c470r in pms, i did get fed up with the situation and tell him he may as well ban me before suiciding.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I believe that if it is the kind of round where the HoS is allowed to take the actions that she did, it is not unreasonable for the captain to quickly and decisively deal with threats of rebellion in such a way.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I mean technically that could be classified as inciting a riot or mutiny so I guess I see where you're coming from with the lethal force

[onleavedontatme]

>I was informed that its okay I was attacked because the round now revolved around the conflict
>I was then banned for taking part in the conflict

Either something is missing from the story or this is a dumb ban.

[Wyzack]

I was one of the seperatists. This was a pretty fun round that ended up with all of us dying in a blaze of glory to an ERT and the security force. By the time we had come back to the station Tzar was already dead. To clarify Jane Isolde did help us escape with the armory but she also did not come with us, and either her or someone with her ID card helped kill us all at the end of the round. Not sure what that was all about

[Docprofsmith]

There's a big difference between shooting an actual separatist on the ship and shooting somebody voicing support for them who hasn't actually done anything to justify being taken out of the round. I even explained to you that people who'd left on the ship were fair game should they come back and that the HoS in question was fair game. Vocal bystanders were not. You'd eat a ban if you were shooting everyone who ever called you shitcurity or a comdom and you ate a ban for this.

[Xargav]

Wyzack, I believe verena had Jane's ID card

Doc, given the circumstances I still believe that putting down a dissenter in such a fashion was 100% justified. I never kill the people who call me a fascist [Like Jane had earlier this same round], people who call me shit, or anything like that because thinking I'm bad doesn't threaten the station. Actively saying you wish you were part of an organization that's at war with the station, however, especially when you've already been arrested previously, is going to be dealt with in the most efficient means possible because the threat to the station is clear and real.

[Tsaricide]

Sounds like treason to me talking about how NT should burn and how he wants to be a rebel, the captain made an example of him.

[lumipharon]

Why you think you should be unbanned: I believe that if it is the kind of round where the HoS is allowed to take the actions that she did, it is not unreasonable for the captain to quickly and decisively deal with threats of rebellion in such a way.

That's a pretty good point yo. You can't just let 1 guy do shit 'because event' then ban another guy for behavior that's consistant with that event.

[Cobby]

To clarify Jane Isolde did help us escape with the armory but she also did not come with us, and either her or someone with her ID card helped kill us all at the end of the round

Sounds like she was doing more than just Vocalizing her opinion.

I can understand the idea that ' you can't just kill someone for calling you a condom ', but this wasn't like that at all according to the OP. This would be like someone in late-Rev [which is what this was basically based on how it was described] yelling VIVA [and supposedly helping out].

When people are continue to incite an ALREADY OCCURING mutiny [which in itself is a capital crime], then they shouldn't QQ when they eat lasers. If you want to act like an antagonist then you don't cry when you get treated like one.

[Wyzack]

I do not think Jane was the one he got banned for killing, get these peanuts outta here

[Docprofsmith]

I've already stated I said that the HoS and the actual mutineers were fair game. However saying you don't like the captain or NT is not acting like an antag and does not warrant an execution. I'm standing by this.

[Pascal123]

I was an ERT during this. These people who just "Voiced their support" without joining the actual rebels. They quickly became a problem and had to be taken down. There were three of them who just began a murderbone on the station after arming themselves through cargo. I don't see the captain pre-emptively culling that possible problem as bad... After all, they did get three announcements warning them that if they felt that way, they should leave on the rebel ship now, or face consequences.

Public talk of insubordination would get you fired anywhere else before it became a problem.

[Drynwyn]

I was playing during this round as Skulks-Through-Maintenance, with the separatists. (I eventually got loyalty implanted and performed GUT WRENCHING BETRAYAL but that is not really relevant.)

I'd say that the escalation here was legit- in my opinion, Tzargav was not simply "lol you say bad thing I kill you"- there was in-character buildup to the point of murder, and the slain individual probably should have been able to see it coming.

[TheLongbowMan]

Alright, here is the other side of the story if this adds any context to it, since I was one of the two who got killed in this specific incident. Better late then never for which I apologise.

Just want to first off tackle the first point he makes: "he already had a run in with the law for killing Ian"
Actually the HoP killed Ian, blamed it on me too, and while besides the point, this does have a run and lead up to the events, however point being, using that as a character reference is not equitable, and most of my round was centred over clearing my name for this.

The "rebels" as they came to be known, were an at first peaceful split of the crew who wanted to go on an adventure on the white-ship. I didn't have any involvement with them through the round, other than hearing about them, I did not actually meet a rebel at all.

While yes, I did voice support for the rebellion without ever meeting them, this was when I heard that they just left and I did not know of the violence at this point, my IC reasoning of voicing support for the rebels and discontent with the HoP, that I was fairly disconcerted as to the handling of the HoP blaming the death of Ian on me, when it was he himself who killed Ian, this coupled with being held for a very long while for questioning, then brigged, then had a tracking implant put in me as I was released pending a trial. (I am perfectly fine with this OOC because there was enough RP to keep it all interesting, but IC I was not happy),

I had spoken to the captain about it, who seemingly did not want to know, this and coupled with the IC rivalry/grievance with the HoP and wanted nothing to do with the HoP at this point.
I had later met an ERT team whom I told them of my problems, once again did not want to know. I had later heard that the lawyer needed help in medbay so I went there to discover him bleeding out and spent a quite a bit of time trying to heal him, cryo seemed to not really work and he still didn't have enough blood after a few bloodpacks, but that is possible a code issue.

So that is the IC lead up to it on my side of things from how I remember it: I witness a crime, I get arrested, complain, ignored, complain more, go help a guy in medbay.

I was in the middle of helping the lawyer as he was bleeding out in medbay, enter the captain, he walked up to me, said "You will meet your doom, rebel scum", I took this as an opening to talk about what was happening, the captain had already mentioned to me that he won't be after me if I did join the rebels, I hadn't hurt anyone or committed any crimes at this point, and I had already co-operated with security over the Ian matters, nor did I try to attack or run, and I was actively engaged in saving a neutral third party. So I reply with "I am trying to save a life." I was hoping that he would see that I am providing medical attention to someone, not resisting and not doing anything harmful, and see that I am ready to talk about what was happening, but instead he just kills me with a chainsaw. No RP involved there, there was no escalation, and absolutely no need to use lethals at this point, I feel he was just trying to get his valids on.
As a result of this, he does not continue providing the aid that I was and the patient dies soon after.

Needless to say I was a bit annoyed with this lack of conflict escalation from my side of things, so I ahelped it.

I de-admin when I ahelp something as to not put any influence in the decision making, but I have had a look at how Judicator handled the ahelp, and it looks like he was just going to give the captain a warning, but the captain flipped his lid, and left with a "I don't care if I am banned", leaving while being questioned, so a ban was placed. While I personally would have leaned towards a warning + note, I believe a ban was placed to assert the fact that you shouldn't kill someone and let others die if there is little escalation involved.


One of the main points that seems to be missed in this discussion is that by killing me, you also got the lawyer, a neutral third party killed, not really fair on them at all.

[Wyzack]

Yeah, i think it is pretty important to note that initially we were just going on a regular whiteship adventure before the captain flipped his lid and decided to have a problem with it

[Lumbermancer]

Too bad. He's the Captain.

[Docprofsmith]

Too bad. He's the Captain.

Captaincy is not an all access murder pass

[Lumbermancer]

Except when HoS and half of security commit dereliction of duty, leaving Captain with no tools to enforce his orders and the rule of law.

[Docprofsmith]

Well since in this situation half of security didn't do that, captaincy is not an all access murder pass.

[icecreamcohn]

I was an ERT during this. These people who just "Voiced their support" without joining the actual rebels. They quickly became a problem and had to be taken down. There were three of them who just began a murderbone on the station after arming themselves through cargo. I don't see the captain pre-emptively culling that possible problem as bad... After all, they did get three announcements warning them that if they felt that way, they should leave on the rebel ship now, or face consequences.

Public talk of insubordination would get you fired anywhere else before it became a problem.

So the Box head rebels were armed by me. After hearing talks from Knox about a possible death squad I felt that the Captain needed to be stopped and decided to voice support with the rebels. I did Arm the box heads in cargo until strict guide lines to wait for the rebels and to stay low key.

What throws me off is why was I not killed. I warned the Rebels that NT were trying to trap them and not to believe their lies over the station messaging system. When caught I was permed. Why choose to kill the lizard over me?

[Malkevin]

Too bad. He's the Captain.

Captaincy is not an all access murder pass

No but he's the guy that has full authority to execute people, especially if large amount of the crew are in open mutiny against NT - with a number of them taking up arms against the loyalists.

[Xargav]

I legitimately had no idea the lawyer was dying. And yes, I'm going to get pissed and leave when I keep trying to explain myself to Jud, while trying to keep the ERT organized, and while trying to keep a look out for the rebels, yet he keeps telling my that what I did was 100% uncalled for.

Edit: I would even go as far as saying that part of the reason for a ban being "he left while talking to admin" is a bit silly, as he was repeating himself by the time I left

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I was an ERT during this. These people who just "Voiced their support" without joining the actual rebels. They quickly became a problem and had to be taken down. There were three of them who just began a murderbone on the station after arming themselves through cargo. I don't see the captain pre-emptively culling that possible problem as bad... After all, they did get three announcements warning them that if they felt that way, they should leave on the rebel ship now, or face consequences.

Public talk of insubordination would get you fired anywhere else before it became a problem.

So the Box head rebels were armed by me. After hearing talks from Knox about a possible death squad I felt that the Captain needed to be stopped and decided to voice support with the rebels. I did Arm the box heads in cargo until strict guide lines to wait for the rebels and to stay low key.

What throws me off is why was I not killed. I warned the Rebels that NT were trying to trap them and not to believe their lies over the station messaging system. When caught I was permed. Why choose to kill the lizard over me?

The permanent brig is considered an equivalent punishment to execution. Maybe he felt vindictive.

[peoplearestrange]

Anyone know if this was resolved... what was even the outcome?

[Saegrimr]

Nothing really became of this other than silence, and to be honest i'm not 100% on this either.

[CPTANT]

Nothing really became of this other than silence, and to be honest i'm not 100% on this either.

How are you not 100% on this? This was in no way a "YOLO I AM CAPTAIN I EXECUTE EVERYONE" situation, there was serious build up of the entire situation. If there is an active mutiny going on and someone continues to scream NT should burn after being warned than you have it coming to you. If you repeatedly say "I want to be a rebel" be prepared to be treated like one.

Bans like this literally only make people scared to play the role of captain.

Being 1 inch away from OOC punishment all the time because someone enforces their particular view of how a role that has the authority to execute people "should" be played, without any form of leeway is complete and utter shit.

[Saegrimr]

How are you not 100% on this? This was in no way a "YOLO I AM CAPTAIN I EXECUTE EVERYONE" situation, there was serious build up of the entire situation.

Because I wasn't there to witness it, and its a big game of he-said-she-said and nobody has even posted a snip of actual logs.

Which I should have gone log diving weeks ago.

[Docprofsmith]

As I've said before, I've said all I will on this. If anyone wants to log dive and continue to argue about it so be it, but since nothing is happening I'm going to close this thread unless a headmin wants to step in and say otherwise.