[durandan] VincVsVincent - Unreasonable ban

VincVsVincent · Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:55 pm

Byond account and character name: VincVsVincent | Loves-The-Cold

Banning admin: durandan

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Temporary ban

Ban reason and length: Reason: Greytiding with his lizard metafriend squad. Took it upon themselves to lynch a possible metagamer, then decided to give themselves all access, break into the permabrig, kidnap the human CE and blow a cyborg for trying to rescue him. 2880 minutes aka 48 hours.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 16:33 GMT+1

Your side of the story:

As I joined the shift as an assistant and met some fellow lizards I was looking for some coins in cargo, a medical doctor named Candy Dawin (metafriender 1) came up to me saying only "wtf" taking out his syringe gun when I disarmed him and missed the shot, I ran away where I meet up with the detective named Rogerio Pinto so I thought I was safe since security and the medical doctor kept trying to disarm me infront of him.

I just stood still and did nothing against it where suddenly the detective shoots me in the face with his gun, the doctor took the knife from my pocket and rapidly stabbed me infront of the detective where no word is exchanged, still and he detective just cuffs me and drags me away. (screenshot one)

I got taken to brig where all my stuff gets put in the locker, the normal procedure but he gave me ten minutes of prison time, ten minutes for getting shot in the face and stabbed (screenshot two) later he let the doctor in, as the doctor said his second sentence to the detective, the detective opened the locker and let him grab my stuff (screenshot three) minute later the doctor got out of brig and shot the syringe gun towards a random person, who later ended up in permabrig for disarming the doctor (screenshot four).

After this I've finally been released, I met up with some fellow people who also have been harassed by the detective and medical doctor and we all decided to take them out together (I've been on sybil to ask for an admin, nothing happend) so we killed and spaced them, it might sound harsh but it's all we can do if the detective is putting everyone to arrest, shooting people and the medical doctor shooting people with choral hydrate and stabbing people with a knife.

After that we went to permabrig to get Myriam (permabrigged for disarming the medical doctor), who suicided and we proceed to drag her to medbay for maybe future ressurection or whatever, but a security officer attempted to taser us, I hide but eventually no one got arrested in the end, I saw the HoP laying on the ground when I took his ID and ran away from the brig with it, I later called the people who helped me with the detective and medical doctor to the HoP office to give them all access I did this since I trust them more than the security force since they did NOTHING about the detective/medical doctor incident.

One of the people who helped me came into the HoP office some seconds later with the CE arrested, I had nothing to do with his kidnap so that shoudn't be even in my ban reason, I even explained the admin that I had nothing to do with that multiple times, I even released him after I found him because the admin was complaining TONS about it, he later pm'd me saying if I had anything else to say, as I was getting to safety and writting my message down I was already banned before finishing it.

To go back to the "lizard metafriending squad", The only person I knew OOCly out of all of them was Betrays-Its-Kin, and simply because lizards get fucking harassed on the station ICly they rather stay with other lizards and so I did.

Screenshot one: http://puu.sh/n6ogL/12929dd576.png
Screenshot two: http://puu.sh/n6ooL/9bbfa968bb.png
Screenshot three: http://puu.sh/n6ows/c8efb5c67e.png
Screenshot four: http://puu.sh/n6oze/0db6194f80.png

Why you think you should be unbanned: All the ban reasons are invalid other than the blowing the borg, I agree that it was shitty and it would be better to lockdown it but in a situation where the AI keeps trying to bolt you in and panic syphon your ass I just do the think that seems right to me, durandan clearly banned me before I could explain myself further and by this forumpost I hope you see my point of the incident.

[mso edit: I added some line breaks and replaced some commas with periods. stay in school kids, run on sentences are bad]

fofofo21 · Post by **fofofo21** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:04 pm #153899

VincVsVincent wrote: one of the people who helped me came into the HoP office some seconds later with the CE arrested, I had nothing to do with his kidnap so that shoudn't be even in my ban reason

This was me, I was in the HoPs office with Loves-The-Cold when the CE came in wielding a stun baton. I disarmed him, stunned him, and handcuffed him and later found out he had the nuke disc and the captains spare ID.

Pascal123 · Post by **Pascal123** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:16 pm #153901

My discussion with the admin via Admin PM.

Spoiler:

This seems like an admin who should have the full picture without needing to ask questions. Especially with the insinuation that he was, in-fact, investigating the previous claim about metacomming people on Bagil, The detective and MD. Especially considering a lynchmob killed those two long before this strain of admin PM's, They surely would have been able to watch this "Lizard Metafriend" gang in action.

The aftermath discussion in OOC, where people are attempting to explain the situation, only for OOC to be muted and everything said to be completely ignored.

Spoiler:

Where the admin makes several claims to have been stealthminned and watching the whole time. So then... Why all the questions? Why the lack of knowledge of who did what? Why did they seemingly begin by accusing me of that which i did not commit?

In my eyes. The detective was a piece of crap, attacking people with his buddy, and arresting them unfairly for self-defense. They were later lynched. I then notice the CE with the all-access, who did not set up the engine, attempting to assault the two lizards in the HoPs office. He was promptly detained and had his All-access revoked. Loves-The-Snow, then heads off to perma, grabs the corpse, and drags it to medical. Security comes to pick up the HoP, presumably killed him, i guess. and has us implanted. Later, the borg and AI are attempting to syphon them to death, by order of the aformentioned "Dead" CE, apparently. who essentially put out a KOS order on all lizards. The borg being nearby loves, is presumably the culprit, and is blown by Loves.

I do not see the OOC crime in having an all-access.
I do not the OOC crime in detaining somebody assaulting you and having security deal with it.
I do not see the OOC crime in breaking into perma to retrieve somebody who was unlawfully detained and killed without jurisdiction by a rent-a-cop, especially considering nobody was killed in the process.
I do see a slight problem with blowing an Asimov borg. But how would you react if a borg/AI was syphoning and bolting the room you were in, due to a humans orders to kill all lizards. That's a thing called, escalation, in my opinion.

VincVsVincent · Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:24 pm

Pascal123 wrote:
Spoiler:
http://puu.sh/n6rTn/58467155fa.png

To add in, Durandan is saying stuff about the power and the CE being bucklecuffed, from what I expierenced he instantly looted captain's quarters round start and did not even do one attempt in setting up the power, he came into the office with a baton AND laser gun, how'd you want us to set up the power if seriously the AI is attempting to bolt us down and syphon us also why'd you want to let him freely go after probably attempt murdering us, I even released him as I mentoined before, he instantly made an announcement we are to be killed on sight. So basicly Durandan's argument is wrong.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:24 pm #153908

Funny how the exact same group of lizards swarming the brig and complaining about being lasered by the HoS yesterday are now all involved in this.

VincVsVincent · Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:26 pm

Saegrimr wrote:Funny how the exact same group of lizards swarming the brig and complaining about being lasered by the HoS yesterday are now all involved in this.

VincVsVincent wrote: The only person I knew OOCly out of all of them was Betrays-Its-Kin, and simply because lizards get fucking harassed on the station ICly they rather stay with other lizards and so I did.

Pascal123 · Post by **Pascal123** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:26 pm #153910

Saegrimr wrote:Funny how the exact same group of lizards swarming the brig and complaining about being lasered by the HoS yesterday are now all involved in this.

What does that have to do with the ban reason. Or ban itself. Or anything, really.
What, just because two regulars who play on Bagil happen to be involved, suddenly everyone's a culprit?

Durandan · Post by **Durandan** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:36 pm #153923

Allow me to answer Pascal's point about questions first. While you can find out a lot from all the other information available to admins, talking to people to get their side of the story is basically my standard operating procedure. It helps me gain a fuller view of what happened, to get some insight into the intentions behind actions, and to see if we determine if somebody is a shitter by comparing what they say with other evidence. For instance, if somebody says in an admin-pm that they didn't have anything to do with the CE, but the combat logs show them hitting the CE five or six times with a baton that is more than a little suspicious.

To explain the events of that round from my perspective, it started with seeing an unanswered adminhelp via irc about metacomms. I joined bagil to investigate, immediately went into stealth mode to avoid tipping off any griefers to my presence, and started looking at logs and the actions of the people accused. There was another adminhelp about another suspicious group and I informed that person that admins were looking into it while I kept an eye one the (at that point five) people who were most likely in metacomms. Two more admins joined the server and went into stealth at a later point as well. While we were discussing the situation, the detective and doctor (who were later banned for metacomms) got into a fight with quite a lot of people and ended up killed and spaced. To be clear, while this is somewhat annoying to happen to people under investigation for something like metacomms and it does set us back a bit, I don't really find fault in that part. Killing and spacing two shitters actively trying to kill you is fine imo. Everything after that point however ranged from iffy to simple greytiding and it spiraled out of control.

In spite of there being a late-join officer who you could've, you know, talked to, you and your lizard friends took the detective's PDA and used it to get into the permabrig and rescue someone (incidentally also banned later) there. While you were removing a suicide (for what purpose) from the permabrig the security officer saw two lizard assistants and opened fire with a taser before retreating. Immediately after that you stole the unconscious HoP's id for no good reason whatsoever except that you wanted more access for yourself and your friends, classic greytide. With that ID you got into the HoP's office and broadcasted a call for lizards to go there too for all access. Simply saying that you trusted them or that they were your friends is not adequate justification for giving them all full access during an extended round in my view.

Furthermore, when one of the two heads of staff walked in on you handing out all access like candy the response of the lizard team was to detain him and question him at length about this or that. While a Chief Engineer not setting up the engine is a bad thing, you guys were not another head of staff, or admins, or security, or anyone else with any kind of actual authority to deal with the CE. Essentially it looked like you three in particular took it upon yourselves to mutiny and appoint yourselves the new kings of the station while also hindering the actual heads of staff by taking their ID or keeping them cuffed on the bridge. I also don't see the issue with one of two heads of staff on the station having expanded access and the nuke disk. Securing the nuke disk is absolutely one of the things all acting captains are supposed to do. Having no power sucks. Having the entire station blown up by syndies sucks more.

The really big issue however came when the cyborg and AI, who objected to a group of non-humans overthrowing command, trying to get you to stop. The mediborg would've been well within their rights to fight with actual weapons to get the CE out of there, but instead they just used their flash which doesn't do any permanent damage. Blowing a borg for following their laws, and trying to rescue the CE and acting captain from a group of lizards was well over the line. That alone would've got you a ban but in conjunction with everything else, there really was no justification for your actions that round after the Detective was dead and you found the permabrigged suicide. As you yourself said, there was good reason for people "hunting" you.

My intention was to question all three lizard players who are in this thread about the events of that round, but unfortunately I got a little side-tracked with keeping an eye on the (multiple) groups of people probably metacommunicating. I only had time to really talk to one player, Vinc, and a little with Pascal before the round ended. At that point all I was really doing was keeping everyone else on the server waiting, so I dropped it after banning the person who I considered to have done the worst.

Also, Saegrimr's point is very much salient as it shows a persistent relationship between your characters. Knowing other players OOC isn't a requirement of metafriending at all although it is a good indicator of such.

In short, other players being shit is not adequate justification for you to be shit as well, and I am not going to lift or shorten this ban unless someone with more authority intervenes.

VincVsVincent · Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:51 pm

Durandan wrote: In spite of there being a late-join officer who you could've, you know, talked to, you and your lizard friends took the detective's PDA and used it to get into the permabrig and rescue someone (incidentally also banned later) there. While you were removing a suicide (for what purpose) from the permabrig the security officer saw two lizard assistants and opened fire with a taser before retreating. Immediately after that you stole the unconscious HoP's id for no good reason whatsoever except that you wanted more access for yourself and your friends, classic greytide. With that ID you got into the HoP's office and broadcasted a call for lizards to go there too for all access. Simply saying that you trusted them or that they were your friends is not adequate justification for giving them all full access during an extended round in my view.

It was my fault then that I didn't know the officer was a late-join, lots of stuff was going down so I coudn't keep my eye on the chat constantly to see who signs up as what, I dragged the body from permabrig since I had the feeling that person might be ghosting still, and that person was wrongly perma-brigged so I decided to bring the body to medbay for future borging or so, also the lizards helping me were the only lizards on the station, and I can't go around my radio calling everyone to the office so I used to announcement, also I didn't know breaking into the brig or stealing the HoP's ID is bannable? I've been requested nicely to not steal the captain's ID at roundstart to maybe avoid future admin problems and so I did, but banning for breaking into the brig and giving yourself plus the people you're IC friendly with is a bit weird isn't it?

Durandan wrote: Furthermore, when one of the two heads of staff walked in on you handing out all access like candy the response of the lizard team was to detain him and question him at length about this or that. While a Chief Engineer not setting up the engine is a bad thing, you guys were not another head of staff, or admins, or security, or anyone else with any kind of actual authority to deal with the CE. Essentially it looked like you three in particular took it upon yourselves to mutiny and appoint yourselves the new kings of the station while also hindering the actual heads of staff by taking their ID or keeping them cuffed on the bridge. I also don't see the issue with one of two heads of staff on the station having expanded access and the nuke disk. Securing the nuke disk is absolutely one of the things all acting captains are supposed to do. Having no power sucks. Having the entire station blown up by syndies sucks more.

It was only the CE I've seen who was cuffed and all, but as I said multiple times in my post and in the ahelp, I have almost nothing to do with kidnapping

Durandan wrote: The really big issue however came when the cyborg and AI, who objected to a group of non-humans overthrowing command, trying to get you to stop. The mediborg would've been well within their rights to fight with actual weapons to get the CE out of there, but instead they just used their flash which doesn't do any permanent damage. Blowing a borg for following their laws, and trying to rescue the CE and acting captain from a group of lizards was well over the line. That alone would've got you a ban but in conjunction with everything else, there really was no justification for your actions that round after the Detective was dead and you found the permabrigged suicide. As you yourself said, there was good reason for people "hunting" you.

I fully agree with you on this part, it was a really shitty decision to blow up the cyborg, the only small reason I could give for this is that the silicons were commanded to bolt and panic syphon the lizards, me being one, out of safety blew the borg, I still think it was a shitty decision of myself.

Durandan wrote: My intention was to question all three lizard players who are in this thread about the events of that round, but unfortunately I got a little side-tracked with keeping an eye on the (multiple) groups of people probably metacommunicating. I only had time to really talk to one player, Vinc, and a little with Pascal before the round ended. At that point all I was really doing was keeping everyone else on the server waiting, so I dropped it after banning the person who I considered to have done the worst.

When you were talking with me we discussed about the CE incident, and I kept telling you that it wasn't me who kidnapped him but you even put it in my ban reason.

Basicly putting tons of "reasons" in the ban reason makes it look like you did a "good" job but half of it isn't even what I did or bannable, lmao.

Pascal123 · Post by **Pascal123** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:04 pm #153945

Except you left out the part where i had very little to do with any of that.
Minus, Assisting the morphined players in dunking the shitler Detective and MD, asking the CE why their engine was not set up, getting implanted by security, and giving the cyborg a body.

But... Whatever, it is no longer related to me. It is now about Vinc and the others. I explained my side.

VincVsVincent · Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:28 pm

Tbh I'd also prefer if a different admin would look at this case and judge it without hurting his fellow "adminbuddy"

Just someone that wasn't involved

TheNightingale · Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:52 pm

I was observing during this round, and caught the tail (pun intended) end of it. The CE was outside the HoP's office, in cuffs, with a member of the Security team present (in a security hardsuit, if I recall). The cyborg's MMI was later retrieved from the Conference Room. After the CE was freed, he announced a kill-on-sight order for the station's lizard personnel (first using the Medical intercom channel 148.5, if that helps with searching the logs).

If, as the screenshot http://puu.sh/n6rTn/58467155fa.png here claims, the CE went into the HoP's office with a baton and laser gun, it's not unreasonable to assume that he's there with malicious intent, and most likely the intent to kill. Laser guns aren't the sort of weapon you play nice with. This would lend justification to the CE's subsequent detainment (not just for dereliction of duty, but also possession of a restricted weapon and most likely conspiracy to commit murder), wouldn't it? Clearly, the CE wasn't a responsible head of staff, and so it makes sense to confiscate his all-access ID.

The only part of the ban reason which holds weight is the blowing of the cyborg. However, this was done because the room was bolted and being syphoned (presumably under orders from a human); due to the AI's omnipresence and power to access the Robotics console, a lockdown wouldn't have been an option in such circumstances. Since the cyborg's MMI was later retrieved, this indicates that the detonation was not done through malicious intent, but through necessity - yes, the silicons were law-bound to obey a "kill all lizards" order, but VincVsVincent's character was acting in justifiable self-defence against a clear and present threat.

Lynching two known troublemaking murderers - the Detective and the MD (who both later were banned for metacomms?) - isn't against the rules; confiscating all-access from an incompetent and overtly hostile head of staff isn't either; and nor is sharing said access with responsible people who can assist the station better. Having all-access is an IC matter, especially on an extended round, where it doesn't interfere with antagonist plans. Indeed, it's common for access to be handed out on Basil more freely than it is on Sybil; and this in itself is no evidence of a "lizard metafriend squad" (which I'd argue is a loaded term anyway).

In such a hectic set of circumstances, it's not unusual for the situation to be misinterpreted, and I'm sure none of the players involved hold any ill will due to this. But in light of recent developments, and the points raised by myself, Pascal and Vinc, it's clear to see that the defendant was unable to take any option but the one presented here.

VincVsVincent · Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:46 am

At this rate it'll probably take two days before a proper admin sees my post and that the banning admin was wrong, forum is epic.

Kishy · Post by **Kishy** » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:57 pm #154045

VincVsVincent wrote:At this rate it'll probably take two days before a proper admin sees my post and that the banning admin was wrong, forum is epic.

Pretty cool

Post by **oranges** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:35 pm #154380

The banning admin is the one who makes the call, if you feel they are still wrong, you may escalate to a headmin complaint.

VincVsVincent · Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:49 am

oranges wrote:The banning admin is the one who makes the call, if you feel they are still wrong, you may escalate to a headmin complaint.

Coudnt you tell me like... Before I got unbanned ?

TheNightingale · Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:57 am

You might still get an antag token or something out of this. I'd expect the note would be removed if you're found innocent, to say the least.

Pascal123 · Post by **Pascal123** » Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:52 pm #154519

If they're gonna be stubborn with it, the least they can do is modify the note to reflect the fact that he is only really culpable of one thing, and that is only partially, as he had reason to do it.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:52 am #154690

VincVsVincent wrote:
oranges wrote:The banning admin is the one who makes the call, if you feel they are still wrong, you may escalate to a headmin complaint.
Coudnt you tell me like... Before I got unbanned ?

If you did get unbanned could the admin responsible please clean up this thread?

peoplearestrange · Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:59 am

Goat mom is here to clean away the dirty ol FNR threads.

Resolving.

/tg/Station 13

[durandan] VincVsVincent - Unreasonable ban

[durandan] VincVsVincent - Unreasonable ban

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