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[Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:25 pm
by ShadowDimentio
Byond account and character name: David273 Blob Overmind (273) (AI)

Banning admin: Brotemis

Ban reason and length: Incinerating the human chaplain during a ling round after he incinerated a husk, causing me to believe he was a ling trying to destroy an absorb. 1440 minutes, and a silicon jobban.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): ~6:30 PM (USE)

Your side of the story: I was the AI during a ling round. Checked the crew monitor console, saw a unknown corpse in the chapel and believed it to be a husk. I go to the chapel and order a borg to search the coffins when I see the chaplain run in the incinerator with a body bag. He opens it for a second, it's a husked corpse. I take this as confirmation that he's a ling due to a human having virtually no reason to have a husk and lock the room down, ordering the borg to incinerate the chaplain when he arrives. He does, and later Brotemis yells at me about the chaplain 'possibly' being human, dealing me a ban shortly later.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The ban is unreasonable, being supported by insane technicalities that hardly constitute as 'ban material'. The ban report itself says that 'not even a 10% chance of being human is acceptable' if the AI is to act on executing a ling, but think of it like this: Can an AI ever be as 100% certain someone is a ling as Brotemis demands they be if the AI is to act on it? The ling is a stealth hunter. Nearly all of it's incriminating moves can't be seen by the AI, so even by watching there's always the chance that any of even the most blatant of ling moves could be just coincidence or achieved through other means. And even if someone declares a ling, it's their word against the accused, and as such can't be acted on either-- basically meaning that if we demand the AI subscribe to the "100% certainty or bust" mentality, then they become completely useless, if not actively detrimental to the crew's efforts. Bolting down the execution chamber is child's play- try bolting down every door in the bar area because the person security is trying to gib COULD be human. You see? This mentality will fucking ruin rounds and just end with the AI getting bitched at for being shit, which is something nobody likes, especially when they risk getting banned if they don't.

tl;dr I incinerated a human chaplain because I had reasonable suspicion he was a ling, and Brotemis is going nuts with silicon policy technicalities.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:16 am
by Hornygranny
Yes, you can absolutely be 100% certain someone is a changeling, by catching them draining somebody or seeing them transform. The AI is not designed to be a validhunter, your laws will very often force you to protect people who are probably antagonists.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:19 am
by ShadowDimentio
Hornygranny wrote:Yes, you can absolutely be 100% certain someone is a changeling, by catching them draining somebody or seeing them transform. The AI is not designed to be a validhunter, your laws will very often force you to protect people who are probably antagonists.


But what if they had a UE injector from genetics? What if you 'lagged' and missed them doing a whole bunch of burn damage to the guy?

Anything is possible in SS13.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:41 am
by Psyentific
PostThis post was deleted by elyina on Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:08 am.
Reason: steno

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:43 am
by ShadowDimentio
PostThis post was deleted by elyina on Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:08 am.
Reason: response to steno

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:20 am
by Brotemis
I tried talking it out with you, but you were being unreasonable and denying any sort of responsibility for your actions and attempted to deflect any argument to something not even on subject of the question.

That being said, I don't feel like you understand why you're banned from AI because you're still posing hypothetical questions that have no bearing on your ban.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:01 pm
by riolenn
Also baned me as the borg, so future rounds i too will be burning corpses as the chaplain before taking them to cloning. i will also all ways ignore the ai as a borg from now on as well.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:34 pm
by ShadowDimentio
Brotemis wrote:I tried talking it out with you, but you were being unreasonable and denying any sort of responsibility for your actions and attempted to deflect any argument to something not even on subject of the question.

That being said, I don't feel like you understand why you're banned from AI because you're still posing hypothetical questions that have no bearing on your ban.


I understand why I was banned: I incinerated a human chaplain because I thought he was a ling, but the point I was trying to raise then and still am trying now is that I had a very good reason to think that he was a ling, and, at the time, wasn't neurotically considering the possibility that he could be human, which the ban itself says I should be. I wasn't thinking 'could this guy possibly be human', I was thinking 'I need to kill this ling before he kills more people, law one and all that'.

And you weren't exactly 'trying to talk it out with me. I dunno about you, but it's rather hard to have a pleasant chat with an admin when they aren't exactly being subtle with how I was going to get banned if I didn't spit out a good explanation which, beyond the one I gave you, I didn't have.

tl;dr Law one is fucking confusing.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:46 pm
by Brotemis
Consider these statements:

A) A changeling is not human
B) Humans are protected by law 1, do no harm to humans
C) The chaplain might be a changeling.
D) The chaplain has not been seen sucking dna or transforming into someone else

Sort the above into facts and opinions

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:20 pm
by ShadowDimentio
Brotemis wrote:Consider these statements:

A) A changeling is not human
B) Humans are protected by law 1, do no harm to humans
C) The chaplain might be a changeling.
D) The chaplain has not been seen sucking dna or transforming into someone else

Sort the above into facts and opinions


Fact.
Fact.
Opinion, refer to evidence.
Opinion, but just because it hasn't been seen doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:43 pm
by Hibbles
Blanket ruling time: You can't kill a person for being a ling unless you or a borg literally see it with your own eyes, that's the only way to be sure in this game 100 percent. If you do, then murder away. If not, then the most you can do is detain them non-harmfully if you suspect it. Asimov cages would probably come in really handy here, actually.

Is that a hard line to take? Yes. Will it bring you into conflict with the crew? Probably, the crew would just try to murder regardless. But that's part of the deal.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:17 pm
by Psyentific
PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:01 pm.
Reason: Stenography, Bring it up in the policy thread

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:59 pm
by Hornygranny
To be clear, that's the only logical conclusion you can draw from Asimov laws and has been the de facto situation. Putting it in the rules page is a good idea.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:12 am
by ShadowDimentio
Soooo...

What's the standing on my ban? I've explained my case as best I can. Repeatedly. Don't really think there's much more that can be said on the matter, especially when this case has been so specific that it's demanded an addition to silicon policy.

So could I have the jobbans lifted?

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:18 am
by Pandarsenic
That has been policy for ages. You can't go "OH MANNNNN HE'S BURNING A HUSKED CORPSE, BETTER TRY TO META THAT HE'S A CHANGELING" and then go "I DID NOTHING WRONG!" when you killed a human. You've demonstrated a complete and utter inability to understand silicon procedures. Appeal after the ban runs down if it's timed or once you have some actual understanding of your error.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:30 am
by ShadowDimentio
Pandarsenic wrote:That has been policy for ages. You can't go "OH MANNNNN HE'S BURNING A HUSKED CORPSE, BETTER TRY TO META THAT HE'S A CHANGELING" and then go "I DID NOTHING WRONG!" when you killed a human. You've demonstrated a complete and utter inability to understand silicon procedures. Appeal after the ban runs down if it's timed or once you have some actual understanding of your error.


Firstly: I've posted at least three separate times on what I did wrong and have admitted each time that it was wrong and that I wasn't thinking as an asimov AI perfectly and got someone killed as a mistake. I'll say it clearly here: I fucked up.

Secondly: You can't play the meta card when it's as common as it is and EVERYONE does it. Ban involved or not, metagaming is completely common on these servers and everyone does it always. Upholding it now is just unfair.

Thirdly: The only reason this is an issue in the first place, as you said, was because he turned out to be human. I seriously doubt anything would have been brought up if I had been right and he was a ling, or even if I wasn't an AI and just some crewmember. The best case I can really make for myself is the truth: I took a shot on someone I thought was highly suspicious and turned out to be wrong about it. I was in the wrong mindset when playing AI and made a mistake. That is all.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:03 am
by Pandarsenic
But it wasn't a good reason to think he's a ling. AI is not meant to be "Antaghunter: The robot."

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:16 am
by ShadowDimentio
Pandarsenic wrote:But it wasn't a good reason to think he's a ling. AI is not meant to be "Antaghunter: The robot."


Oh, but in the case of lings, it is. An AI that doesn't hunt lings is backhandedly permitting human harm by letting them roam free. So an AI, by law, has to hunt the ling scum on the station and purge them ASAP.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:34 am
by Pybro
I was one of his borgs during this round. I saw a dude sprout an armblade, and a guy repeatedly do epinephrine overdose, so there was knowledge of lings being on the station, it's not like there was a wizard running around and the AI went lelchangeling.

Delete this if it's not worthy of existing

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:48 am
by Pandarsenic
Pybro, you're involved so you're good.

If you whacked the guy with the armblade? You're good. Epi overdose? Okay, that's a little more out there, but I'm tempted to say, "Sure, go for it," simply because of the current state of rulings on metagaming not actually defining whether people can know antag abilities and how they look.

But AIdude, you called "GOTTA MURDER HIM STRAIGHT-OUT" off a guy burning a husk. That was ogre the line and if you can't see that how you played this was a problem...

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:29 am
by ShadowDimentio
Pandarsenic wrote:Pybro, you're involved so you're good.

If you whacked the guy with the armblade? You're good. Epi overdose? Okay, that's a little more out there, but I'm tempted to say, "Sure, go for it," simply because of the current state of rulings on metagaming not actually defining whether people can know antag abilities and how they look.

But AIdude, you called "GOTTA MURDER HIM STRAIGHT-OUT" off a guy burning a husk. That was ogre the line and if you can't see that how you played this was a problem...


ShadowDimentio wrote:I'll say it clearly here: I fucked up.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:53 am
by Brotemis
And I would say you owe it to the chaplain who you burned to death to sit out from playing valid hunting AI and play other roles. It's not even been a day.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:07 am
by Pandarsenic
ShadowDimentio: You're still convinced you were only punished because you got his humanity status wrong. This is (or should be) incorrect.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:09 am
by ShadowDimentio
Brotemis wrote:And I would say you owe it to the chaplain who you burned to death to sit out from playing valid hunting AI and play other roles. It's not even been a day.


I wondered how long it was going to take for someone to say validhunting.

And I disagree. I wasted something like 30 minutes of the chaplain's round by killing him. I've paid that amount several times over on the ban that you gave me on top of the silicon jobban alone.

At this point I don't owe him anything.

Pandarsenic wrote:ShadowDimentio: You're still convinced you were only punished because you got his humanity status wrong. This is (or should be) incorrect.


I'm not convinced of anything, I know for a fact that if I was right nobody would have said anything, and you do too, judging from what you just wrote.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:52 am
by Pandarsenic
If he were an antag, he wouldn't have ahelped most likely, because people are conditioned to believe that if they're an antag anything done to them goes. If he had ahelped and said "Borg incinerated me without knowing I'm a ling," and I PMed you and got back "Oh, he was burning a husk," even if he were an actual antagonist, that's no way to know he's a NONHUMAN antagonist.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:52 am
by Malkevin
PostThis post was deleted by Jeb on Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:19 pm.
Reason: Rules apply equally to everyone. No steno means no steno :(

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:44 pm
by Pandarsenic
Elected not to delete Malkevin's because maybe that'll be the post that gets it through that he definitely harmed a human while trying to prevent harm instead of any of the 500 million ways to prevent harm without burning someone to death. If another forum mod wants to override me, have at it.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:20 pm
by Jeb
I've removed his post, because the rules apply equally to everyone. If you let one person steno, you have to let everyone steno.

Sorry.

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:37 pm
by ShadowDimentio
So we've kinda been going back and forth on the exact same topic at least three times over and nothing new has been said, so I ask again:

What is the standing on my ban?

Re: [Brotemis] Human incineration as AI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:53 pm
by Brotemis
Appeal denied. Appeal at a later time to have the jobban removed.