[HBL] Banned for not pleasing admins

[Dubem]

Byond account and character name: Kha Cy Wolfe
Banning admin:Hotelbravolima
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server
Ban reason and length: Admin PMs this person to tell them to stop spamming their team with flashbangs, minor issue. Directly refuses the warning. Continues refusing to even pretend to be reasonable like most people are. Literally won't play ball, so take your ball, and play somewhere else. translation: literally not answering with a "sir yes sir", i was told what to do and i didn't do it again although what i did was completely harmless and not against the rules in any way
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 22:49 Eastern EU
Your side of the story: Recently came back from a break of not playing the game and didn't really like the fact that whenever i get outright griefed admins are never there, and when i do ANYTHING minor, anything at all that is just the tiniest thing ever, i get either warned or in this case banned.

as for what happened: i emptied an entire box of flashbangs in a ratvar cultist's face (i was also ratvar) face in one go, then never repeated it again, i get PMed and i explain that it was completely harmless and just for fun as we had pretty much already won the round due to EVERYONE being converted or dead, i then get told that it's a "horrible excuse" when once again, it was LITERALLY HARMLESS FUN, then hotel starts PMing me in a rather passive agressive way, i respond rather agressively to said passive agressiveness and this conversation goes on for quite a long time, with me never repeating the thing i did that was oh so bad during this time, and as i tell him this he just outright bans me which IMO is wrong...simply because i didn't feel like bowing down to him and kissing his feet doesn't mean that im "directly refusing a warning", directly refusing a warning is repeating the same action that i was just warned about completely disregarding the warning, NOT responding to you in a way that doesn't worship you as a flippin' god (i might be over exaggerating this a bit)
Why you think you should be unbanned: I didn't directly break any rules nor did i refuse any warnings, all i did was respond to an admin in an equally agressive way as he/she was responding to me

[Hibbles]

Come on.

You can yell at us and call us hitler an wrong and stuff, that's all fine, people do it all the time. That's not what this was about. When you are PMed by an admin over a specific thing, you need to stop, and you need to listen. It's not optional, it's required. If you tell us 'no' directly to our face we have exactly no choice.

This wasn't you getting attacked and then becoming defensive, walling up, etc, you started out at 'fuck you' and never showed any sign you'd consider another approach.

So if you won't listen to admins when we're pretending to act in an official capacity, at the very least, then go.

Yeah, you didn't do the thing again in the 3-4 minutes we had a one-sided conversation, but you gave us nothing to indicate you wouldn't do it again. In fact, we got rather the opposite impression, which is why this is happening. Even just a 'fine it won't happen again', and bam. Done. You're golden. But no.

TLDR: Nothing of value was lost, appeal denied until signs of humanity are seen, headmins are free to review this if they want.

[imblyings]

Spoiler:

[19:36:45]ADMIN: PM: Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): Hi, your team would appreciate if you didn't spam flashbangs near them!
[19:36:56]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer): ah it's just for fun 'n' games m9
[19:37:21]ADMIN: PM: Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): That is a horrible excuse, please don't do it again(both things)
[19:37:38]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer): Oi, the fella wasn't in any danger or nothin'
[19:37:44]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer): not violatin' team rules 'ere
[19:40:30]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): Free tip fam: Listen to the polite warning when it's given.
[19:40:53]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): Im 'ere to follow yer rules lad, not yer tips
[19:41:13]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): The ones who decide what the rules are, and how they're enforcced, are the admins. Us.
[19:41:19]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): When we tell you things, listen to them.
[19:42:34]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): So yer tellin' me ya can just make up a rule huh? don't think so mate, 'sides, im just gettin' rid of the salt caused by you admins NEVER being around when im ACTUALLY getting grieffed, just 'ere to tell me to not do this or that which was a very minor inconvenience to this one fella, how 'bout ya focus on bigger things yeah?
[19:43:42]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): Rule 0. Enforcement of rules is at the discretion of admins.
[19:43:50]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): You play in our universe, normie.
[19:44:08]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): At least pretend to be reasonable or you leave us with exactly zero choices.
[19:44:38]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): And i can still flip ye off for being a cunt yeah? yeah, yeah i can mate, and i'll be reasonable when im needed to be reasonable, not to please ye
[19:44:56]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): not like ya do anything for me either
[19:45:09]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): ill suck ye off when ya suck me off first
[19:45:12]ADMIN: PM: HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): You can have whatever opinion of us you want, call us cunts, etc, but when an admin actually PMs you, it's an official type deal and you have to listen, or you'll be kicked.
[19:45:44]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->HotelBravoLima/(Wade Barrett): and have i thrown another now non existant flashbang because i just used all of em up yet? nope, not really no
[19:46:41]ADMIN: hotelbravolima has banned kha.
Reason: Admin PMs this person to tell them to stop spamming their team with flashbangs, minor issue. Directly refuses the warning. Continues refusing to even pretend to be reasonable like most people are. Literally won't play ball, so take your ball, and play somewhere else.

presented without comment with difficulty

[Dubem]

hibbles, i never said "no" or anything resembling the word no, i did not give you a negative or positive response as i didn't see the NEED to do so as i was clearly not doing what i was told not to do, and had no intentions to do so

and what's that about me starting out at 'fuck you' are ya like...tryina tell me that i said that? because i didn't say that, now as for my point: i remained "neutral" or something that would better describe what i mean by this, i did not give you a yes or no nor did i have any intentions or actually WANT to drag the lil PM tossing for that long

'sides, i wasn't the one who started the passive agressiveness, it'll be a lot easier to get answers outa someone when you're not showing agression, essentially if you wanted to get an answer outa me you coulda just asked me if im gonna stop (which i did anyways)

[Saegrimr]

It's not like he was being told to roleplay a specific way, or do something fucking impossible, or that it was even a ban initially.

It was "Could you not dump a whole box of flashbangs into your teammates?"
Hell he didn't even have to reply, if he just didn't even do anything it wouldn't have turned into this.
Instead we get "nah bruv imma do what i want, eat my shorts"

All he had to do was nothing. Still fucked that one up too.

[Dubem]

Sae i REALLY don't understand how "it's just fun and games" translates to "nah bruv imma do what i want, eat my shorts" and what's with yalls saying i dumped the flashbang box into my teamateS when it was just 1 person, and my point about not going against the rules or any warnings i was given still stands.

[Shaps-cloud]

Playing on this server is a privilege and not a right, admins are volunteers and have no obligation to keep someone around if they're being a dick, and dumping a box of flashbangs on someone is enough to blind and deafen them for several minutes. If you refuse to heed the staff's warnings and treat them like shit, you have no business being here.

[MrStonedOne]

[19:36:45]ADMIN: PM: Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer)->Kha/(Cy Wolfe): Hi, your team would appreciate if you didn't spam flashbangs near them!

I'm just gonna ask, after this pm was sent out, did they do it again?

Somebody can defend why they did something without saying they are gonna do it again.

[19:36:56]ADMIN: PM: Kha/(Cy Wolfe)->Lzimann/(Leo Pfeifer): ah it's just for fun 'n' games m9

I feel like both admins needlessly took this line in bad faith.

[lzimann]

He stopped. I didn't care much about him saying that, even though the way he put is usually how griefers answer. But my involvement in this whole thign stopped there. I don't really agree with the permaban, even with his attitude not being the most appropriated in this situation.

[lollerderby]

"I'm not breaking any rules :^)^)^)^)" is a completely garbage response to give when you're confronted about something dickish you're doing.

[Dubem]

Dickish huh? Once upon a time a friendly gang member shot me with a syringe that muted me for about 10 minutes, didn't seem like a bad thing at the time and it still doesn't.

The kinda shit that is always done to me is 10 times worse than i dish out tbh. And the only problem that i have with the ban is that it was considered a minor issue and no rules were broken yet it was still a perma ban, if ya gonna ban someone for dickish behaviour (which wasn't the ban reason but possibly affected it) then at least ban em for a certain amount of time, not forever.

[MrStonedOne]

Players have never been under any expectation to gravel and profusely apologize or even be nice to admins.

And while you may be reading it as a bad faith statement, and interpret it as "I'm not breaking any rules :^)^)^)^)" I don't see it that way.

Nor do I like that this entire ban basically boils down to rather or not you interpret one thing they said in good faith, or bad faith.

[Tornadium]

Players have never been under any expectation to gravel and profusely apologize or even be nice to admins.

And while you may be reading it as a bad faith statement, and interpret it as "I'm not breaking any rules :^)^)^)^)" I don't see it that way.

Nor do I like that this entire ban basically boils down to rather or not you interpret one thing they said in good faith, or bad faith.

Didn't you PM me to suggest I be a little nicer in adminhelps like three days ago?

Kinda irrelevant but that was even when I was just entirely polite and neutral.

[Hibbles]

We could go around and around truly forever, but let's not. I said the appeal was denied unless we saw signs of humanity.

What I meant was whether you're willing to play ball.

So, two questions.

1. Are you willing to listen when an admin PMs you to stop doing x in-game, and to comply with this regardless of whether or not you agree?
2. Are you capable of communicating this in a way a person would, such as 'won't happen again' or 'I disagree and think you're a nazi faggot but I will cease doing x and I hear you' or ANYTHING other than 'it was just a prank bro, and I'll follow what I think the rules say, not what you say : ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) '

[onleavedontatme]

I know I said I wasn't gonna post in this thread but I am irresistably drawn to fnr shitposting and MSO has a fair point.

Admins shouldnt be expected to just sit and eat verbal abuse but neither should we have BANNED FOR ADMIN DISRESPECT, and this is closer to the latter. This seems to be part of a trend in FNR recently of admins escalating really fast in PMs and assuming people are hostile from the outset. Have pubbies scarred you guys so much?

Not sure why a single bad flashbang led to this either.

[Lumbermancer]

Not sure why a single bad flashbang led to this either.

i emptied an entire box of flashbangs in a ratvar cultist's face

I'm pretty sure entire box of flashbangs will blind you.

[Hibbles]

All I'm waiting on is a reply to my two questions and we can almost certainly end this weird issue.

[Timbrewolf]

This is the kind of shit that gets the host and headmins involved these days? Christ. Posting under my own amendment:

Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules

Emptying a box of flashbangs in someone else's face FNR is that pointless, dickish behavior. It does nothing but give you a little giggle because "haha that guy can't see now I did that".

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team.

Extra spicy dickish behavior. "It's even funnier because I'm doing it to someone I'm supposed to cooperate with!".

It's literally the exact same mechanical action of someone flashing their own team in CSGO and you guys are defending him over some ambiguous "Well maybe he didn't really mean to suggest that he would do it again".

Shoutouts to my man HBL I can't beleive Kor and MSO are so gutless that they're hemming and hawing like this over you banning someone for flashing his teammates and then acting like a little twerp when you told him not to do it again. Look at this fuckboy behavior what the hell.

His appeal still doesn't acknowledge that he shouldn't do that repeatedly or again. My God.

Did the player do something the rules would discourage people from doing? YES/NO
Did the admin intervene and tell the player not to do that thing again? YES/NO
Did the player indicate they would not do that thing again in their response? YES/NO

[Dubem]

Yes hibbles, i guess i can be more clear with my answers and i won't do what im told not to do (not like i did to begin with)

[onleavedontatme]

stuff

It's a game with 400 players daily across all servers.

Permabanning people for minor backtalking would be suicidal as a trend.

[tedward1337]

>an0n posting from the grave
n i c e

[Timbrewolf]

stuff

It's a game with 400 players daily across all servers.

Permabanning people for minor backtalking would be suicidal as a trend.

He didn't ban him for backtalking he banned him for non-compliance. He told him not to do a thing, and he responded by arguing that it was okay for him to do that thing.

Hosting a server where the rules are only enforced if the player allows them to be is suicide.
Hosting a server where you're only caring about keeping your pop counts up high is suicide.

[Wyzack]

I feel like the second one is not so much suicide as it is dipping your balls in a nuclear reactor. Guaranteed cancer.

[Timbrewolf]

We're getting off topic and it's partly my fault. I don't want to make this ban appeal a soap box about server policy.

My point is that permabans pending further discussion aren't new.
When that further discussion is "Admins suck I didn't do anything wrong that guy is a dick" not "You're right I wont do that again"...like what thing of value is actually lost here?
When you tell a guy to not do a thing and he responds by arguing and getting an attitude, you have to bring out the banhammer as much to prove your point as to give the guy a break to rethink it.

If not for that you may as well just have a bunch of players constantly arguing with eachother in OOC over what the right thing to do is and nobody actually administrates anything

[onleavedontatme]

There is a very wide range of responses between "rules are only enforced if players let them" and permabanned for arguing about flashbangs.

[Hibbles]

In the course of writing my post, I realized I was discussing Dubem like they weren't a part of the discussion, or the subject of it, rather than it involving them. I think that's an omen about how badly you're derailing this with your need to Stand Up For The Little Guy and Protect The People and Stop Admin Corruption and all those other super noble things, Kor. Those are goals that basically the entire admin team share, you know. Maybe you should consider the way you're going about stuff a little more, though.

I agree with Anon that your entire attitude was shit, Dubem, and every other admin on at the time sure agreed with me too. We were more or less laughing incredulously at you because that's not the way normal people react to a minor warning. As Anon put it, it wasn't >admin disrespect, it was >apparent non-compliance. All the arguments to defend you are legalistic hand-wringing that everyone says they don't want to get in the way of binning shitlers. The only thing that should matter is, are you being a jerk, and will you stop, and can you communicate that.

Since the answer to all three of those is 'yes', I don't have any reason to keep the ban going. But you can avoid this big song and dance next time by 'okay won't happen again'. Or just not being a jerk to your fellow players, on purpose.

It's not difficult.

[Timbrewolf]

There is a very wide range of responses between "rules are only enforced if players let them" and permabanned for arguing about flashbangs.

Rather than argue about the infinite then, why don't you just say how you would've handled this situation and how people should be expected to in the future and close the thread already?

NINJA'd nevermind. This can be some weird awkward space between you guys in the bus.

[Tornadium]

I think that's an omen about how badly you're derailing this with your need to Stand Up For The Little Guy and Protect The People and Stop Admin Corruption and all those other super noble things, Kor. Those are goals that basically the entire admin team share, you know. Maybe you should consider the way you're going about stuff a little more, though.

I would be interested to see where the community stands on this, specifically if they believe the entire admin team shares this goal.

Certainly there are admins that do, but I also feel like there are admins that would readily power trip and stamp on any dissent if they thought they could get away with it.

[onleavedontatme]

There is a very wide range of responses between "rules are only enforced if players let them" and permabanned for arguing about flashbangs.

Rather than argue about the infinite then, why don't you just say how you would've handled this situation and how people should be expected to in the future and close the thread already?

NINJA'd nevermind. This can be some weird awkward space between you guys in the bus.

If he'd kept flashbanging? Probably banned him for a couple hours. If he came back and kept ignoring admins the bans would get progressively longer.

I also hope you both appreciate the irony of this whole argument and advocating zero tolerance for "non compliance."

>insulting the host of a game you dont play while using a rule named after you specifically designed so that players can dissent to say that someone should be permabanned for dissenting

and

>admin telling a host and headmin that they're wrong when they express dislike of the ban, getting vaguely personal/ad hominem in the process

But luckily MSO is """"gutless"""" so people are allowed to disagree here, against admins, against the headmins, and even with the host.

*Obviously it's not 100% the same because I dont think hbl was griefing (lord knows your motivations for getting involved), but the response was certainly not "how high" when MSO said to jump

Stand Up For The Little Guy and Protect The People and Stop Admin Corruption and all those other super noble things, Kor

That is what I promised to do, yes.

[Timbrewolf]

Kor at the end of the day you dont want to actually improve the quality of the playerbase on the server you just want people to like you and your whole attitude and process in this thread is proof of that.

I'm here because that kind of shit drove me up the fucking wall, and still does.

Like look: HBL and the player have resolved the issue. They may have even been able to do that themselves in a much neater manner without both you and MSO trying to make this about some weird "power to the players" thing when the entire incident is a pretty textbook example of when to ban someone.

This kind of shit, the two of you just publicly throwing someone under the bus when it doesn't actually accomplish anything for the community and the ban was actually pretty legit in the first place is why adminning /tg/ is suffering. And it's dumb because I remember a point in time where we had eliminated this kind of weird politicking but here it is.

[Xhagi]

I feel as if this thread has run it's course as far as the ban is concerned. It was resolved, and the person was unbanned. If this discussion is to continue, it should be in a policy thread or adminbus. Clearly there's a disconnect on how to respond with players who seem to not listen.

For the record, while I might not have gone with a permaban, I would have responded with a ban all the same. Need to do something to get the point across of 'hey, listen up motherfucker.'

[Tornadium]

Kor at the end of the day you dont want to actually improve the quality of the playerbase on the server you just want people to like you and your whole attitude and process in this thread is proof of that.

I'm here because that kind of shit drove me up the fucking wall, and still does.

Like look: HBL and the player have resolved the issue. They may have even been able to do that themselves in a much neater manner without both you and MSO trying to make this about some weird "power to the players" thing when the entire incident is a pretty textbook example of when to ban someone.

This kind of shit, the two of you just publicly throwing someone under the bus when it doesn't actually accomplish anything for the community and the ban was actually pretty legit in the first place is why adminning /tg/ is suffering. And it's dumb because I remember a point in time where we had eliminated this kind of weird politicking but here it is.

You are always going to run into problems whenever you put the right to judge "Quality" into the hands of those with power.

[oranges]

Would be a great time for the headmins to get together and act like they're capable of resolving admin differences about now.

[onleavedontatme]

We realized a public slapfight was dumb so we finished our bitching in private and then hugged it out.

Also the player got unbanned anyway so unless anyone wants to keep watching me argue with an0n3 this thread is probably done (and then some).

[TechnoAlchemist]

Cool i'm locking this because this thread fucking sucks