/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: Tornadium - Multiple
Banning admin: Ausops and Teward - Tedward placed the IRC ban/Ausops placed everything else
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Everything - Servers/Forums/IRC
Ban reason and length: Permanent
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 7/9/2016

Your side of the story: Okay so this is going to be a long one. Most of you know my history, This is basically the same thing repeating. Prior to this ban I was warned in IRC that a ban was incoming and Ausops was looking for literally any ammunition he could to get rid of me again since the probation was lifted.

So the justification is two notes about my conduct, one admin I have never had interaction with to my knowledge and the other I have. No admin since my probation has ever warned me about my conduct or told me that it was in any way inappropriate. All of my ingame interactions with admins have been pleasant and have agreed I was correct in my judgement and action. I have no idea what those two notes are or why they were placed. I was never informed nor warned. I cannot accurately defend myself without knowing the content of those notes.

The other justification was my recent forum conduct. I assume it was in relation to a thread ausops himself locked regarding Lethal action being taken against security by admin decision and I was requesting some kind of headmin ruling about whether or not this was acceptable. I was not the only one in that thread to question the admin decision and I feel this ban is specifically targeted because Ausops didn't like me questioning anything the admins did.

Thread here : viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7235

Why you think you should be unbanned: This is ausops grudge against me come back pretty much, To be fair I was warned this ban was coming by HBL as he was looking for literally anything he could to use as justification for this ban when he got angry that I was questioning an admin decision. I haven't had a single warning about my ingame conduct since I returned, every case where an admin contacted me resulted in an admin agreeing my actions were acceptable.

I would like this thread to remain open so I can actually appeal this rather than just be blanket banned and brushed under the rug.

This is HGs probation so ultimately the decision rests with him. I would like to ask Ausops to respect that and not close the thread until HG makes his decision about whether or not I failed the terms of his probation. If HG agrees with Ausops I will fully accept the decision and find another server. I don't have much hope of that happening but regardless I'd like to do this right.

Thanks to Jordie for lifting my forum permaban too.

The notes:

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:The notes:

Thanks for this.

The note is inaccurate and I could happily go into detail on that one but I honestly don't think that would do me much good to start a massive argument regarding that. I will say the first note is missing a LOT of information regarding that incident (such as me literally telling the dude I would be back to release him in a moment).



The second note was placed because I asked for a headmin to confirm a ruling that I thought was questionable. The headmin confirmed the ruling and everything was hashed out and I accepted the ruling. Not sure why that's even a note to be honest.

Edit : Ah fuck it I'll defend myself I guess.

So the Captain was attempting to clone and release confirmed traitors who to the best of my knowledge that round had attempted to sabotage the station and murder members of the crew. I attempted to stop the Captain from doing so after pleading with him a few times not to. The reason I appeared as unknown was because the Captain attempted to flee through doors I had no access to so I had to juggle IDs to catch up with him. I had my mask on running internals due to the hull breach which is why I showed up as Unknown. I can't blame the CMO for his intervention but he was a threat and was non-lethally detained for the duration of the mutiny. The mutiny was entirely agreed upon by the HoS, Warden and the rest of the security force. The captain was detained shortly after I was and I was released by the rest of security. The instant I was reminded about the CMO I immediately told security where he was and he was released. It should be noted after the CMO intervened and arrested me I was left in maint without any ID or equipment. I had no hard feelings towards the CMO and I did intend to release him once I had dealt with the Captain to stop him interfering a second time, this is evidenced by the fact that I told him I would be back for him. The CMO fully understood that him getting involved in the mutiny brought that on and he actually enjoyed the IC interaction you can even see that in the logs.

Pretty sure the entirety of OOC after that round agreed that the Captain was massively shitty and in need of removal. I will admit my behavior in OOC was not good and I apologized to NikNak in IRC during that incident as I let anger cloud my judgement for a moment.

Fully edited for disclosure of the incident.

Anything even worth noting is a note. We put anything down we feel is relevant or would possibly come up in the future. Doesn't matter what it is.

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:Anything even worth noting is a note. We put anything down we feel is relevant or would possibly come up in the future. Doesn't matter what it is.

Well if it helps I can go pull the logs from that exchange. I do not feel I was in any way rude or in any way entitled. I spoke to him in a polite adult manner and requested that a headmin be brought in to consult on the issue.

A disagreement between myself and another human being isn't exactly "entitled" Irish.

No. I can already see that becoming it's own separate argument and then your whole thread derails and we have to start over. Keep it to your original shit.

2016-03-21 21:14:01 | Sybil | hornygranny [Remove Note] [Edit Note]
MEGA PROBATION: If he does ANYTHING wrong throw him out. This extends to being a pain in the ass outside of the game.

Never mentions requiring HG's input but we can wait for a headmin.

Two new admins, none of which I've spoken to about you, reaching the same conclusion about you held by more or less every other admin, is not a coincidence nor a bad judgement on their part. We are also not obliged to give you an answer you personally find satisfactory in policy discussion nor a forum for you to constantly argue after being given an apology and the best explanation you will get on the topic. As easy as it is for you to imagine up a grudge, what you are not privy to is ahelps involving you over the past where I have defended your actions or found them to not be at fault. If you proceed to fail your probation terms, then it's not through any grudge that you are being banned, it's for failing the last chance given to you through your own actions.

imblyings wrote:2016-03-21 21:14:01 | Sybil | hornygranny [Remove Note] [Edit Note]
MEGA PROBATION: If he does ANYTHING wrong throw him out. This extends to being a pain in the ass outside of the game.

Never mentions requiring HG's input but we can wait for a headmin.

Two new admins, none of which I've spoken to about you, reaching the same conclusion about you held by more or less every other admin, is not a coincidence nor a bad judgement on their part. We are also not obliged to give you an answer you personally find satisfactory in policy discussion nor a forum for you to constantly argue after being given an apology and the best explanation you will get on the topic. As easy as it is for you to imagine up a grudge, what you are not privy to is ahelps involving you over the past where I have defended your actions or found them to not be at fault. If you proceed to fail your probation terms, then it's not through any grudge that you are being banned, it's for failing the last chance given to you through your own actions.

Perhaps this is a culture clash.

I personally feel that administrators or community leaders are obligated to defend their actions to the community when questioned as you are meant to be role models to the rest of the community and you hold power and authority to take action when necessary. In that particular instance myself as well as multiple members of the community (most of whom would call me a fucking idiot half the time) actually agreed with me that the decision was bad but the admins seemed to be defending the decision.

So of course I'm going to push for your justification even so I can actually understand why you think the way you do. I accepted his apology which is why I didn't bother to make an admin complaint, I just wanted more information on why the administration considered his ruling to be correct in that particular instance.

I don't mean to sound rude here Ausops but I'm not a big fan of "shut up and accept it" without being given information to help me understand why.

I had decided to wash my hands of this whole mess, but i can not help but point out the fact that every single fucking time this happens you act like a total shitter until the ban hammer comes down for violating your probation, at which point you try and be polite.

Wyzack wrote:I had decided to wash my hands of this whole mess, but i can not help but point out the fact that every single fucking time this happens you act like a total shitter until the ban hammer comes down for violating your probation, at which point you try and be polite.

I don't think I'm being overly polite at the moment, nor am I really speaking in a manner that is different from my usual tone.

I still think your decision was bad and borderline idiotic as do other members of the community, I'm just curious as to why the rest of the admin team seems to think it was the correct course of action without providing any justification or reasoning.

Literally all you need to do is say "Well X happened so we consider this valid escalation".

Edit : Trying to think of the best way to word this but here is what I have so far.

You got angry that I kept pushing for an answer, I got angry that the only reply given was "Each situation is different and is down to admin judgement" or some variation of that. Did I miss anywhere in that thread a reason why you though that decision was correct or what action occurred in the round to justify your belief that the admin action was correct?

That's literally all I wanted to hear, WHY you thought that the admin was correct to do what he did.

THIS is why people keep banning you and not wanting to deal with you. you keep NEEDING the why. And you keep bothering people about it. It's like a 2 year old asking why about everything. Instead of just saying "oh well, it's only a game, shit happens" you keep making threads. See Rule 10.

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:THIS is why people keep banning you and not wanting to deal with you. you keep NEEDING the why. And you keep bothering people about it. It's like a 2 year old asking why about everything. Instead of just saying "oh well, it's only a game, shit happens" you keep making threads. See Rule 10.

As I said I guess it's a culture thing.

I'm not really accustomed to being told to accept something without hearing the reasoning or justification for it. I think it's rather corrupt and shitty to have a system ran where the people accountable don't have to explain their actions if questioned.

Not sure why it's easier just to ban me than to explain your reasoning if you're confident that your reasoning was good?

yes sometimes admins tell you to accept it because that's their decision
However, you have been given ample explainations on a fair amount of cases. Wyzack explained why they made their decision and you STILL weren't satisfied with that answer

tedward1337 wrote:yes sometimes admins tell you to accept it because that's their decision
However, you have been given ample explainations on a fair amount of cases. Wyzack explained why they made their decision and you STILL weren't satisfied with that answer

Uh,

Did I miss that somewhere in that thread? I didn't see anything? The only thing I saw was that he said he wouldn't have changed the decision had he known about the Emag.

I wasn't actually ever given an answer as to why it's valid to murderbone security as a non-antag if you are the one fucking around.

If by some miracle he gets unbanned please keep him banned from security

He's a terrible security

You can't keep going on like this, regardless of whether you think you're right or not.

Tornadium, you told me you'd rather go out in a blaze and stand up for what you think is right, rather than buckle down and avoid trouble. That's fine, that's even a position I can respect, even when we disagree, but this is the inevitable result of that.

So if you've made your choice, then we've made ours. Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

Hibbles wrote:You can't keep going on like this, regardless of whether you think you're right or not.

Tornadium, you told me you'd rather go out in a blaze and stand up for what you think is right, rather than buckle down and avoid trouble. That's fine, that's even a position I can respect, even when we disagree, but this is the inevitable result of that.

So if you've made your choice, then we've made ours. Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

I did, I'm not really the kind of person to just accept something I feel is corrupt and wrong. I've also never backed down from someone on a power trip ever so yeah I guess this is an eventuality that was coming.

If unbanned I still will be calling out shit I think is incredibly sketchy or power abuse so if the admins don't want to deal with that kind of criticism and be accountable to a standard then a perma is probably the only choice.

It's kind of interesting that I go out trying to enforce the same rules I pushed for years ago when burer and co were in the spotlight. I just think that if we banned those people for non-antag murder vendettas (sometimes even non-lethal vendettas) over stupid shit I don't see why it's fair to let other people do the same thing without consequence or justification from the admin team.

You're not the type of person to accept that you're wrong and you've never backed down from worming yourself back into communities that have rejected you.

It's a cute fallacy you've put out there equating banning you with admins not dealing with criticism, trying to paint yourself as some wronged martyr representing justice.

Locked until a headmin replies.

I'm just going to kick the can down the road and say the next set of headmins should be the one to decide this.

I have less than a week left, should be up to the guys who are facing four months how/if they want to deal with the inevitable conflict between you and admins. They could immediatley undo whatever decision I made anyway (just like last time a headmin banned you) so not much point in making one.

Plus I am on vacation and don't really want to stick myself in the middle of a ton of drama.

Try appealing to the new bosses in a week.

Kor wrote:I'm just going to kick the can down the road and say the next set of headmins should be the one to decide this.

I have less than a week left, should be up to the guys who are facing four months how/if they want to deal with the inevitable conflict between you and admins. They could immediatley undo whatever decision I made anyway (just like last time a headmin banned you) so not much point in making one.

Plus I am on vacation and don't really want to stick myself in the middle of a ton of drama.

Try appealing to the new bosses in a week.

Alright I'll wait until the headmin elections happen.

Just out of curiosity I'd like to hear your opinion on the issue even if it's not actionable.

What is tornadium's history that he talked about in the OP?

TheColdTurtle wrote:What is tornadium's history that he talked about in the OP?

I've been banned prior for excessive arguments with the Admin team. Ausops placed a rule zero ban a week before he stepped down as headmin for no other reason than he wanted to get rid of me.

When so many admins seem to hate you, have you ever thought to take a step back and consider if this might be related to how the common denominator in these situations is always you?

Yeah I had considered it and discussed it many times.

However there is also the flip side of that coin where this is the only community where I seem to have this issue and this issue only started occurring in 2015 onward. Played here fine without a single issue for years prior, no issues on any other servers. No issue in other gaming communities, I admin multiple community groups and have been part of groups like shacktac for years.

So quite literally this problem comes down to this current set of admins vs me. I discussed this earlier and a few people agreed it comes down to me ticking off the wrong people. I cant say I exactly blame them for actively looking for reasons to get rid of me if our two personalities and styles of administration are incompatible

There is no way this is going to be a productive thread thread right now so I'm Locking until the next set of headmins want to come in and talk.

New headmins voted, it's a no. Better luck in 4 months.

Kor wrote:New headmins voted, it's a no. Better luck in 4 months.

Alrighty,

Could they post their reasoning? Just will be helpful in four months.

Le digg bump

you're shit

appeal resolved