[Shaps] ForcefulCJS - Banning for trying to stop a usurper

[Oldman Robustin]

Byond account and character name: ForcefulCJS - Oldman Robustin
Banning admin: Shaps
Ban type (What are you banned from?): 1000m ban

1) Be miner
2) We had "Captain Trump" and he's doing his usual memes
3) After about 20 minutes in a relatively quiet round, there's a new captain's message: "This is Braids, I'm taking over, everything is fine" or something along those lines
4) I don't know who Braids is but now he's wearing the captain's clothes, Trump isn't responding on radio, etc.
5) People are yelling about MUH FREEDUM on radio, I decide to join them since this "Braids" hasn't told us why he had a right to get rid of the captain or claim captainship for himself.
6) Walk by the bridge to yell at this pretender captain, try to break in and riot.
7) Pretender captain comes out, disables a clown, drags him onto the bridge
8) Pretender captain strips the clown naked and chops off both of his arms with a fire axe for everyone to see, again without explaining to anyone
9) See a spear near the bridge, after trying to break in, I see the pretender-captain come out
10) I throw my spear and pickaxe at him, the spear embeds
11) Start running as he tries to laser me to death, he lands several laser shots but I pop a survival pen and start firing a KA (indoors) hoping that he will back the fuck off
12) I decide I will only be safe once I get his laser away from him, so I try to disarm him for a bit, doesn't work, so I bail out... Nukeops show up shortly thereafter and kill the pretender-captain and get the disk

What the hell happened to resolving shit IC? Can I just overthrow the captain every time I don't like them (which is like 80% of rounds), tell the "I'm taking over" without offering a real explanation... and then every time someone comes after me I can ahelp them because suddenly coups are admin-enforced?

BACK IN MY DAY, if you launched a coup against the captain and bypassed the chain of command, you could... but at that point you were enabling an IC Civil War and you ran the risk of loyalists to the captain trying to attack or kill you for usurping power. This usurper didn't bother explaining who he was or why he deserved to be captain, what the original captain did to deserve being thrown out, or why we had suddenly instituted a policy of chopping the limbs of clowns for unmentioned crimes.

My positon on all of this is simple and consistent with the way we've always done things:

1) If you want to emulate the Gestapo, use medieval torture and mutilation as your primary form of punishment, seize power without democratic input, etc...
2) You don't even explain your actions to the crew you now expect to loyally obey you...
3) You shouldn't be surprised if the crew rises up and tries to take out out

Yet Shaps took a different position. The usurper had no duty to explain himself to me, but I had a duty to make sure I had 100% accurate information before I engaged in hostilities with him.

Through my entire career here as a player and admin, I've seen hundreds of decisions enforced where if "appearances" give people a reasonable belief about something, we don't punish them if the truth was really something else. If you see someone without an ID in an EVA suit trying to space a corpse, you are permitted to use violence to try and stop them.

Our Policy: Well it LOOKED like the guy was committing a serious crime. They could have kept their ID on, or their face unmasked, or explained on radio why they were tossing bodies out an airlock... but they didn't do those things and so they took the risk that someone would react accordingly.
Shaps Policy: OH BUT THE EVA GUY WAS ACTUALLY AN OFFICER WHO HAD THEIR ID IN A BAG, AND THE CORPSE WAS A TRAITOR, YOU JUST KILLED A LOYAL SEC OFFICER PERFORMING THEIR DUTY BRO YOU ARE BANNED SIR, WE EXPECT PEOPLE TO ACT WITH PERFECT KNOWLEDGE BEFORE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE! (except for that time the botanist picked up a bomb and tried to defuse it, the scientist was 100% justified in murder then botanist and spacing the corpse, huehueue)

My justification in a nutshell:

If you want to arrest people, brig them, and do the basic responsibilities of your job as HOS... then your entitled to admin-assistance if random crew decide to start attacking you.
If you want to unleash a coup on the captain, chop the limbs off a clown, and never explain your actions to ANYONE on the common radio channel... then you AREN'T entitled to admin-assistance if random crew decide to starting attacking you.

[Oldman Robustin]

Another approach:

Q: Could the Captain have killed the HoS for trying to carry out a coup?
A: Yes, without a doubt


Q: Could a support of the captain have killed the HoS for trying to carry out a coup?
A: Absolutely not, we will ban you for doing something on behalf of the captain that you support, that the captain could have done himself...

So basically if HOS tries to take out the Captain, anybody who comes to the Captain's aid is now banned?

[Shaps-cloud]

We most definitely expect you to have more information about a situation than "the HoS gulag'd the captain and said HoS is attacking someone (who it turned out had previously just attacked said HoS)" before jumping straight to chucking spears and pickaxes and rods and blasting at them with a KA (which it took you a long time to actually admit you did anything more than "just threw a spear at him with no intent to kill him at all, honest!"). Trying to murder the HoS because they were handling a criminal with no knowledge of what happened is not okay, especially when your "riot" was just you screaming

[23:01:33]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : CAPTAIN IS ABDUCTING THE CLOWN!!!
[23:01:35]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : THE NEW CAPTAIN
[23:01:44]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : HE CLEARLY HATES FREEDOM RIOT!!!
[23:02:48]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : CAPTAIN IS MUTILATING THE CLOWN OH MY GOD STOP HIM ON THE BRIDGE!!!
[23:05:00]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : THIS CAPTAIN ISNT EVEN THE REAL CAPTAIN, WE ELECTED TRUMP!!!

with no attempt to even figure out what was going on before trying to kill him

[Bawhoppennn]

Why does everyone have to be so salty about when things happen? Why does everyone have to be so upset that something like this happened to them? Can't people just let the events unfold as they do instead of whining that they got killed or something and then someone has to justify how they died? Bans need to be reserved for something blatant that is just them trying to be a dick to other people. Whatever happened to rule 10 (losing is part of the game)?

[Shaps-cloud]

Why does everyone have to be so salty about when things happen? Why does everyone have to be so upset that something like this happened to them? Can't people just let the events unfold as they do instead of whining that they got killed or something and then someone has to justify how they died? Bans need to be reserved for something blatant that is just them trying to be a dick to other people. Whatever happened to rule 10 (losing is part of the game)?

Randomly trying to murder heads of staff for very flimsy reasons will have you be held responsible

[Eaglendia]

Contents of my previously written admin complaint under spoiler, as those are relevant here:

Spoiler:

Byond account, and character name: Eaglendia - Braids Grenades

Admin: ForcefulCJS

Time incident occured: 7/28/16, round ended at ~6:15 PM CST

Detailed Summary: I played Head of Security during an all-in Donald Trump Captain gimmick round. Long after the Captain announced his secession from Central Command, and upon our receiving approval from other Heads of Staff, members of Security, and Central themselves, the CMO and I detained the Captain and I assumed the captaincy, promoting the Warden to Head of Security in my stead. Because the previous Captain had not secured the nuclear authentication disk, I did so when I was redressing in his office. Unbeknownst to us, stealth operatives had infiltrated the station and sowed chaos during the goings-on.

Upon re-entering the bridge, I found the clown destroying windows from outside, and he destroyed the communications console screen in view of us. I rushed outside to act on it, with most of my security equipment still in my possession, and received a lethal response to my disabler shots:



At this point, Robustin took it upon himself to stand between himself and the clown whenever possible, pushing both of us aside to ensure that my disabler shots were unable to connect. Upon being attacked by the clown again, I crit him with my rapier and dragged him into the bridge where he was saved by a medical cyborg. During this time, Robustin attempted to "break in" to the bridge, presumably to continue interfering, by repeatedly hitting the windows with his KA. I left the bridge to Robustin inciting the already-present calls for anarchy, then proceeding to attempt to kill me, resulting in me being left bleeding out at extremely low health with an embedded spear:



I used an unlinked hand teleporter to escape while he pursued, spamming KA shots at me - then, I limped toward security through the fitness room while calling for help; Robustin, moving faster than me in his current state, followed and spammed disarms on me to attempt to steal my antique laser gun. I used a flashbang which I carried from my time as HoS to escape - a stealth operative disguised as an Assistant followed me into maintenance and killed me in a fight I'd have stood a chance in were I not already on death's door. One or two shots from a stetchkin or c20-r left me in crit, and the operative escaped with the disk and planted the nuke moments later, resulting in total annihilation.

As a very obvious strike against me, this might as well be a so-called "ban request", as it's not a complaint about an admin's conduct while adminning but a matter of in-game conduct. However:



With you being the only person aboard the station trying to actually kill me over flimsy reasons, one bored admin minertider doesn't make a popular uprising, no matter how much you believe you're right and everyone else is wrong - I don't think it's a matter of whether or not this is actionable so much as I think a /tg/station vet turned admin should be holding themselves to the same or higher standards of "not being shit" as the players. But based on your behavior IC and OOC I really think you believe you're charged to do literally whatever you want with no consequences.

Guess what?

What the hell happened to resolving shit IC? Can I just overthrow the captain every time I don't like them (which is like 80% of rounds), tell the "I'm taking over" without offering a real explanation... and then every time someone comes after me I can ahelp them because suddenly coups are admin-enforced?

None of this happened!

Your use of hyperbole here is completely fucking ridiculous and pretty much says you're going into a situation you have no idea about to kill people because you're bored. Somewhere along that line, it stops being an IC issue. You lashed out lethally at legitimate authority. You have the resources to see that: the individual who's assumed command is the loyalty implanted manifest Head of Security, and that they've done so with the blessing of Central Command, Security, and other Heads of Staff - but based on the information you've given us in your original post, you knew none of those things and decided to throw yourself headlong into an emergency situation because "he gulag trump memes! i kill!"

It's not reasonable. It's blatant grief.

[Bawhoppennn]

Randomly trying to murder heads of staff for very flimsy reasons will have you be held responsible

I don't know it looked like there was some good justification in that round based on what I saw, but why are we so hyper-sensitive about everything is my point?

[Oldman Robustin]

@Eagle: Most of the reasons you offered (I was implanted, I had the support of heads of staff) weren't available to the rest of the crew, like miners or clowns. Maybe if you had spent a fraction of the effort explaining to the crew what you spent so long explaining to heads, I wouldn't have assumed you were just a power-hungry opportunist. You apparently agree that Trump could have killed you, and you never explained who supported you seizing power, so why are you so upset that some people actually supported the lawful captain? The whole issue of Centcom's involvement was just shitty all around. It reeks of badminning when "Centcom" spurs on a coup and then bans anyone who tries to stop it.

@Shaps, since when does anyone (and he never even told us his previous position before throwing on the Captain's clothes and ID, so we had no way of knowing WHO he was once he seized power) get a presumption of lawfulness when overthrowing the captain?

As far as I'm concerned if a HoS throws the captain out, bypasses the chain of command, and seizes power for themselves without telling the crew why, the next person who sees the "new Captain" is justified in cracking them over the head with a fire extinguisher.

If someone wants to unleash a coup, they've spawned an IC-conflict. It's their job to EXPLAIN why they've broken chain of command and seized power, every assistant who fights back doesn't have to PDA everyone involved for a New York Times investigative scoop before they can pick up their pitchforks.

In my thousands of hours playing and adminning I have never seen this sort of "duty to investigate" laid out like this. If someone is doing something that is ILLEGAL on its face, (chopping off clown limbs, overthrowing the captain) then its THAT persons duty to offer an explanation. That's the way I've seen dozens of admins explain it before.

If I'm hacking someone to bits with a double esword in arrivals, an assistant is allowed to push me down and return the favor... even if I'm just a masked HOS executing a traitor. HoS wasn't obligated to overthrow the captain or cut the limbs off a clown, if he wants to engage in the most brutal solution to every problem then either:

A) He better explain why he's still the lawful authority aboard the station

or

B) Violent reprisals are justified

Shaps telling me that someone can ignore A and get peopled banned for B just feels like bad policy.

Again, here's the issue boiled down to bold text:

GOOD HOS: When I do shady shit like hacking off people's limbs with a fire axe or tossing my superiors in the Gulag, I will explain myself in clear terms to the crew who will obviously be affected by these actions.
GOOD POLICY: If crew violently react against a HoS who has explained their actions, despite their dubious nature, they should be admonished by admins for not inquiring further against someone who took the time to explain their own violent behavior.

BAD HOS: I'm going to Gulag the captain and chop the limbs off the clown in public and I don't have to explain myself to anyone.
BAD POLICY: THATS COOL FAM, WE GOT YOUR BACK. EVEN IF PEOPLE ARE 100% CORRECT IN HAVING IC-JUSTIFICATIONS TO TRY AND OVERTHROW YOU, WE WILL BAN ANYONE WHO TRIES! REMEMBER, THE WORSE YOU DO AT EXPLAINING YOUR BAD BEHAVIOR AS HOS, THE MORE WE EXPECT EVERYONE ELSE TO COMPENSATE FOR IT!

[Shaps-cloud]

Maybe say something over radio or try talking to them before jumping straight to throwing a spear and several items at them, then blasting at them with a KA? Do you immediately announce loudly to the crew what happened everytime you fight someone who attacks you as HoS so that you get the privilege of not being killed by spears? Clearly there was no urgency and they weren't mowing down an entire hall full of people, the esword analogy doesn't cut it.

[Oldman Robustin]

Maybe say something over radio or try talking to them before jumping straight to throwing a spear and several items at them, then blasting at them with a KA? Do you immediately announce loudly to the crew what happened everytime you fight someone who attacks you as HoS so that you get the privilege of not being killed by spears? Clearly there was no urgency and they weren't mowing down an entire hall full of people, the esword analogy doesn't cut it.

My entire point was that it was 'Braids' responsibility to talk to people on the radio before seizing power/mutilating the clown. If he had tried to speak to us, then the BURDEN OF INQUIRY shifts toward the crew, to get the full story, before taking violent actions.

Our security policy has changed over time, but since when are we supposed to give SEC (especially when they don't announce or identify themselves as sec) the benefit of the doubt when they are chopping the limbs off crew in public or seizing power from the captain?

If that's the case I've got a LOT of easy changeling rounds coming up.

I drew my closest parallel as admin:

1) Captain declares independence from Centcom
2) I denounce captain, send an ERT to arrest him for treason
3) Some crew inevitably support the captain and attack the ERT

You know what I DON'T do? Ban people for fighting the ERT, and at least the ERT wear readily obvious uniforms and the implicit authority of Centcom. "Braids" didn't even identify himself as HOS and was wandering around in all of Trump's gear after he had seized power. I can 100% guarantee that if he had stayed in HoS garb after seizing power, I wouldn't have tossed that spear, but I didn't know it was the HOS, I just knew it was some jackass usurper who only identified himself as the "new" Captain "Braids".

[Eaglendia]

I don't know it looked like there was some good justification in that round based on what I saw, but why are we so hyper-sensitive about everything is my point?

It's a situation that sets a precedent. When we're playing a game where it's possible to receive OOC punishment for IC actions, issues like these should be imperatively handled such that players know where lines are drawn in terms of what's acceptable for them to do. I also think it's rather relevant that the resolution of these issues is made relatively transparent especially when members of the server's authoritative brass are involved.

@CJS: Foremost, what you're effectively telling me, regardless of whatever investigation should or should not have been underway IC that's supposedly going to legitimize the greytide that's underway, is that it's "policy" that Security and Command must, at all times, explain their actions to any assistant who asks what they're doing when they're doing it, and if they are unable to satisfactorily handle public relations while being actively murdered, then they're unfit for their role, valid to kill, and the shaft miners can help themselves to the bridge.

Likewise, when multiple people are attacking me when I have a limited arsenal - especially so when I'm in a command role - I'm going to use whatever tools I deem necessary to handle the situation. In this case, the only remaining armaments I had were lethal, and all of the people attacking me had already escalated the situation into a lethal conflict.

You know what I DON'T do? Ban people for fighting the ERT, and at least the ERT wear readily obvious uniforms and the implicit authority of Centcom. "Braids" didn't even identify himself as HOS and was wandering around in all of Trump's gear after he had seized power. I can 100% guarantee that if he had stayed in HoS garb after seizing power, I wouldn't have tossed that spear, but I didn't know it was the HOS, I just knew it was some jackass usurper who only identified himself as the "new" Captain "Braids".

Can you not change your story every time you respond? I kept all of my garb on save for the Captain's cloak, which I switched into from my HoS cloak to hold the antique after I turned my personal energy gun over to the Warden - including the unique Head of Security beret and HUDs. Regardless, I'd identified myself as the Head of Security much earlier in the shift in an event unrelated to the Captain - and even if my sprite isn't proof enough of my role and you don't have access to Security HUD to see my implant or icon, the man who claims Robustin should surely be able to click-examine people during combat, especially when I'm at minimum movement speed from being tagged with spears.

[Archie700]

I don't know why the HoS should tell everyone that they are performing a coup before the coup takes place when the captain can hear the common channel.

There's also the fact that you would inspire loyalists to come to the defense of the captain and possibly escalate it from a bloodless coup to a bloodbath.

EDIT: There's also the fact that Oldman had ample time to check his PDA for who Braids was and ask her why she was killing the clown and performing a coup. He went straight to revolting instead.

[iamgoofball]

This game is shoot first ask questions later, or you die

[iamgoofball]

Also

Why are we required to side with the people doing a mutiny as the crew?

[Jacough]

The way I see it, if you don't know what's going on, don't go jumping in guns blazing unless you're ready to face the consequences. If I were you I'd just suck it up and take the day ban. By the time any headmins looked into this it'll have expired.

[oranges]

seems ic if you ask me, one person mutinied and you should expect that a portion of the crew will react poorly to that and stay in a group until they're all dead or incapacitated.

Neither of them killed each other and the nukeops are the ones who killed the captain.

Why does this need any admin intervention at all?

[iamgoofball]

I didn't even die that round, I survived in very light crit on lavaland

[iamgoofball]

Alright, so, as Captain Donald Trump this round, here's how my round went and why I think Robustin copping a ban for this shit was hella retarded:

I started off the round fighting with the admins because they denied every single station rename for the Trump/USA station thing. I got BSA'd for this shit, but wasn't mad since eh it just wasnt meant to be. To stick with my character's roleplay, we declared independance from CC for not letting us name our station, to which they replied "yeah sure you disavowed us we dont care if anyone hurts you", which I had no problem with. I started instituting my trump policies including a combined effort from Security and Engineering to build The Wall to keep Central Command Illegals out of our station without passing the security checkpoint we built into it. I also banned abortions and drugs as per my conservative character's viewpoints, and went about surveying my wall and hanging out in the bridge roleplaying. Eventually, I get mutiny'd by the other heads of staff where the CMO badly attempts to morphine me. I got a few cries of help over the radio about the CMO being a traitor in the bridge before I get knocked out, my ID taken, and used to do the "this is the new captain everything is under control". I got demoted, my headset taken, and stuffed in the gulag. I never actually worked my sentence, the other people Security had deported were equally pissed with Security and let me hitch a ride on the shuttle to get me back to the station. At that point, nuke ops had been discovered, but wasn't my problem since I had long since been demoted. I just had my captain's carapace still. I pass by the chapel, nearly die to a syndiebomb right off screen, but get revived by a mediborg. I run to the Escape Pods because Delta alert gets activated, slam down on the jettison pod button, when a "greyshirt" walked over and started opening a stetchkin mag into my back since he saw my captain carapace. I had the meds still in my system from the mediborg and survive the bullets as my pod jets off into lavaland, and I survive the nuke on lavaland while slowly healing out of crit when the round ends.

The reason Robustin shouldn't be banned is because why should the crew have to wordlessly agree with this random guy in captain gear saying he's the "new captain" when the previous captain has magically disappeared off to god knows where after crying for help from traitors in the bridge. This game is not about PDAing people. Do you PDA a guy beating down a clown FNR first to ask what happened if he looks like he might kill you? Don't give me that bullshit, no one does on this server, you ALWAYS shoot first, clone, and then ask questions, or you get killed. I would of done literally the exact same thing in this situation.

The whole "you should of known it was the HoS" or some shit like that is literally a case of getting banned because Sally didn't look in Anne's box for the marble.

[Archie700]

Sally didn't look in Anne's box for the marble.

The marble is not in Anne's box. The marble was literally in plain sight on the floor for everyone to see yet Sally beat the shit out of Anne because she thought she stole the marble.

The reason Robustin shouldn't be banned is because why should the crew have to wordlessly agree with this random guy in captain gear saying he's the "new captain" when the previous captain has magically disappeared off to god knows where after crying for help from traitors in the bridge. This game is not about PDAing people. Do you PDA a guy beating down a clown FNR first to ask what happened if he looks like he might kill you? Don't give me that bullshit, no one does on this server, you ALWAYS shoot first, clone, and then ask questions, or you get killed. I would of done literally the exact same thing in this situation.

So, in other words, the best way is to wordlessly attack someone as soon as you see them beating the clown, even when that someone is clearly the HoS that you CAN CLEARLY SEE FROM THE PDA CREW MANIFEST AND HER CLOTHES.

They could even ask the sec officers themselves if they can confirm that Braids is the HoS, but they took the "RIOT FOR MEMES" route instead.

[oranges]

Don't beat the clown unless you're willing to deal with people attack you, honestly you sound like an awful player along the lines of tornadium and I look forward to your inevitable ban.

[Oldman Robustin]

The way I see it, if you don't know what's going on, don't go jumping in guns blazing unless you're ready to face the consequences. If I were you I'd just suck it up and take the day ban. By the time any headmins looked into this it'll have expired.

You see, that used to mean "You might get killed and it will be valid"

Now apparently we've come as far as "Someone can act like an antag but if you try to even crit them, we're going to ban you".

@Archie

He had plenty of time to explain even after he took the captain out, he also had time to explain why he was stripping and mutilating the clown.

But he didn't.

Next time the clown slips me and grabs my weapon, I'll be sure to drag him into the bar, strip him naked, start chopping his arms off, and when anyone intervenes and attacks me with "lethal force" (which is apparently anything that causes you to bleed - they don't even have to crit me!) I'll just start spamming ahelp and probably get 2-3 people banned every time!

As Shaps pointed out, I made several radio messages about the clown being mutilated... if the usurper gave ANY shits about my opinion or anyone else's, he could've easily made a statement along the lines of "Shut up Robustin, the clown threw a spear at me, he had it coming".

I made an accusation of the usurper, the usurper doubtlessly heard me, and ignored it. It's pretty stupid to punish me for my ignorance when the only person who knew the truth intentionally kept me in the dark. All I see Shaps doing here is trying to reward Eagle for playing the worst variety of power-hungry sadistic HOS's... why should I explain my extreme and psychotic behavior to the crew... they're supposed to be able to read my mind, and if they can't... I'll get them banned for trying to stop me!

[iamgoofball]

"THE PDA CREW MANIFEST"

you dont have time to check that in a split second decision to stop a murder

"AND HER CLOTHES"

if you look in the thread you'll see they were wearing captain gear

[Oldman Robustin]

"THE PDA CREW MANIFEST"

you dont have time to check that in a split second decision to stop a murder

"AND HER CLOTHES"

if you look in the thread you'll see they were wearing captain gear

It's not even that simple... PDA manifest changes as soon as they change their ID. Braids is just listed as "Captain" if thats what they changed their title to. When he made his announcement he just said, "Braids here". From my perspective he never gave the crew a reason to believe or understand why the captain deserved to be gulag'd or why he deserved to be the new captain.

[Shaps-cloud]

There was literally nothing that happened after the "coup", you walked up to the HoS 20 minutes later out of nowhere while things were completely quiet, yelled 2 things about rioting, then tried to kill them. I like IC conflict and scenarios but that's a piss poor excuse for random murder that is completely nonconsumate with what had been going on that round. If you *really* were trying to start some counter-coup and weren't just looking for an excuse to randomly kill people you would have tried to stir something up, talk to your fellow crew members, yelled demands first

But no, you didn't. You basically wordlessly ran up to them and tried to kill them unprovoked with a flimsy "oh well some vague thing happened like twenty minutes ago, that means they're valid" reasoning and tried to act as the victim here, and that doesn't fly.


Let me restate this for the benefit of people who didn't see the situation/see the logs. There was no counter-coup. It was absolutely quiet until forceful ran up to them out of nowhere and randomly tried to murder the HoS. Like I said before, he said about 3 things on the radio before jumping straight to trying to murder the HoS on his own, no "revolution" at all.

[Lumbermancer]

Have you tried calling 911 first?

[Davidchan]

So if this happens like Shaps said it did, whats this about the HoS/Cap grabbing the clown and mutilating him on the bridge where the other 'rioters' could see him?

Arresting a criminal for assault and/or rioting is one thing. When the HoS is literally chopping people to bits in publically viewable area (the bridge) that's definitely a reason for concern, space law or no if the Captain/Head of Security is one step away from brutality executing people then the crew removing them by force is covered under rules of escalation.

[Shaps-cloud]

Maybe you could act on that concern and ask what's going on before turning into a mong and trying to kill that person without having the slightest clue what was going on?

[Davidchan]

Maybe you could act on that concern and ask what's going on before turning into a mong and trying to kill that person without having the slightest clue what was going on?

>8) Pretender captain strips the clown naked and chops off both of his arms with a fire axe for everyone to see, again without explaining to anyone


"Excuse, Mr Fake Captain, can I bother you for a minute to ask why you are stripping the clo--" **WACK** "Oh dear you seem to have missed and knocked off his arm. Can I ask why you" **WACK** "Oh my you knocked off his other arm. I suppose we'll come back later when you're done practicing your axe swinging."

Using a highly lethal weapon to physically assault a member of the crew without explanation, reasoning or response, anyone's first instinct that this HoS is batshit crazy and a literal axe toting maniac would be dead on and preventing him from harming anyone else is the logical course of action here.

[Archie700]

Maybe you guys should look at this one more time.

Upon re-entering the bridge, I found the clown destroying windows from outside, and he destroyed the communications console screen in view of us. I rushed outside to act on it, with most of my security equipment still in my possession, and received a lethal response to my disabler shots:



At this point, Robustin took it upon himself to stand between himself and the clown whenever possible, pushing both of us aside to ensure that my disabler shots were unable to connect. Upon being attacked by the clown again, I crit him with my rapier and dragged him into the bridge where he was saved by a medical cyborg. During this time, Robustin attempted to "break in" to the bridge, presumably to continue interfering, by repeatedly hitting the windows with his KA. I left the bridge to Robustin inciting the already-present calls for anarchy, then proceeding to attempt to kill me, resulting in me being left bleeding out at extremely low health with an embedded spear:

And there is such a thing as comms.

[Oldman Robustin]

There was literally nothing that happened after the "coup", you walked up to the HoS 20 minutes later out of nowhere while things were completely quiet, yelled 2 things about rioting, then tried to kill them. I like IC conflict and scenarios but that's a piss poor excuse for random murder that is completely nonconsumate with what had been going on that round. If you *really* were trying to start some counter-coup and weren't just looking for an excuse to randomly kill people you would have tried to stir something up, talk to your fellow crew members, yelled demands first

But no, you didn't. You basically wordlessly ran up to them and tried to kill them unprovoked with a flimsy "oh well some vague thing happened like twenty minutes ago, that means they're valid" reasoning and tried to act as the victim here, and that doesn't fly.


Let me restate this for the benefit of people who didn't see the situation/see the logs. There was no counter-coup. It was absolutely quiet until forceful ran up to them out of nowhere and randomly tried to murder the HoS. Like I said before, he said about 3 things on the radio before jumping straight to trying to murder the HoS on his own, no "revolution" at all.

Since I don't have access to the logs either, I'll just offer this:

1) Someone was yelling on radio about the 'new' captain being illegitimate around the time I attacked the usurper
2) You said 10 minutes during our talk, now its 20, soon it'll be "HOURS LATER...". Make up your mind, I don't think the round was much older than 20 minutes when I attacked, let alone when the coup happened.
3) I stated several times that it was non-violent resistance until I saw him hack the limbs off a naked clown on the brig like a complete maniac, then I resolved to attack him first chance I had... so now it was not "OUT OF THE BLUE OH MY GOD"
4) Seriously you hack the limbs off a clown in public during a round, without explaining it, and I don't care if you're Captain, HoS, or Centcom Commander.... the crew WILL intervene and attack you for it.

Seriously Shaps what happened, that is two bans in two days I've seen you hand out where you completely seize on a single narrative and literally seem to plug your eyes about all the others. Braids worked to ensure most people remained IN THE DARK about his motivations for what would be the actions of an utter psychopath, then when people rightly react to his completely shit behavior, you punish them for not being mindreaders.

Why does this reasoning seem to elude you? If the HOS wants to do his best GESTAPO + KGB + OVRA impression and start gulag'ing political opponents and publicly mutilating crew, MAYBE... JUST MAYBE... THERE'S AN IC CONFLICT THERE AND IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS TO THE CREW, THEN PEOPLE WILL REACT APPROPRIATELY AND ATTACK THEM.

Again Shaps, I don't know what direction you're trying to take our policy... years ago the main issue was "how much can you harass security over a simple arrest". Admins enforced a presumption that arrests are lawful and shouldn't be presumed otherwise without direct evidence. If security wanted to start publicly murdering people in the halls, unless it was a revolution, people had much more leeway to intervene because "public torture/murder" never carried the same veneer of lawfulness. I absolutely loathe the idea that security can not only start hacking off limbs in public, but that ADMINS will ban anyone who tries to retaliate when the police start doing shit that would make Nazis go "woah man slow down that's kind of fucked up".

@Shaps: "You should just ask what was going on"

When I was yelling on the radio about the HOS mutilating the clown, that was me leveling an accusation against the HOS, in public, on common radio. If the HOS gave 2 shits about any misconceptions or what *I* felt about the situation, he could have clarified it. He wanted to act like Lil' Mussolini, he got treated like Lil' Mussolini, he had a dozen ways to easily avoid riling up the crew and he avoided every single one of them... which begs the question = WHY DID ADMINS PROTECT HIM?

I mean there's also the part where I didn't even use lethal force and you were doing mental gymnastic to justify how my force was lethal despite me deliberately holding back so that I wouldn't crit him. I wanted to send a message, I didn't want to kill him, and the fact I switch from harm intent to disarm as he got closer to death (USUSALLY ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND IF YOU WANT TO KILL SOMEONE SHAPS) was completely ignored because it clashed with your narrative. Yesterday there was no difference to you between killing someone and spacing them, today there's no difference between badly wounding someone and killing them. Again I just get the feeling that even the biggest of disctinctions (DID YOU KILL THEM v. DID YOU NOT KILL THEM) become immaterial to you if they clash with the decision YOU WANT to make as an admin.

@Archie

Are you serious? You post two cherry-picked sections where I threw shit at Braids, cut out the part where I was yelling about the HOS on radio, then ask "WHY DIDNT YOU USE COMMS?"

[Shaps-cloud]

Do you loudly announce to the crew whenever you execute/brig someone for a long time after they attack you? Because I can assure you that not CC'ing the crew on every little thing you do when no one even asks you doesn't make you valid salad. If you're trying to play this off as you perceiving them as an immediate threat to people, that flops because you went out of your way to attack them. If you're trying to play it off as the result of RP, that doesn't fly for shit because you wordlessly attacked them without saying a single thing or putting literally any effort to ascertain what was happening.

You made a dumb decision to try and kill someone on a very shoddy pretext with no effort to figure out what was happening, you were very predictably wrong, you pay the price for making a dumb snap decision without doing any research. Case closed.

[Oldman Robustin]

Maybe you could act on that concern and ask what's going on before turning into a mong and trying to kill that person without having the slightest clue what was going on?

>8) Pretender captain strips the clown naked and chops off both of his arms with a fire axe for everyone to see, again without explaining to anyone


"Excuse, Mr Fake Captain, can I bother you for a minute to ask why you are stripping the clo--" **WACK** "Oh dear you seem to have missed and knocked off his arm. Can I ask why you" **WACK** "Oh my you knocked off his other arm. I suppose we'll come back later when you're done practicing your axe swinging."

Using a highly lethal weapon to physically assault a member of the crew without explanation, reasoning or response, anyone's first instinct that this HoS is batshit crazy and a literal axe toting maniac would be dead on and preventing him from harming anyone else is the logical course of action here.

Exactly. I made this point in IRC, Shaps has literally gotten to the point of banning me for something in our WACKY SPESSMEN GAME that you could honestly get away with in real-life.

If I see a policeman arresting someone and I don't know exactly what happened, I'm expected to keep walking.

If I see a policeman stripping a man naked and chopping his arms off with a fire axe, there isn't a court in the country that would try to hold me accountable for shooting the officer in the face. Bonus points if that officer had also just announced that they gotten rid of the mayor and were taking over the city.

[Shaps-cloud]

Your arguments are silly and this is exhausting, I'm locking this and invite the other headmins to overturn my decision if they feel this is unjust