[AlphaaBeta] - Repukan - Valid Ocean

[D&B]

Byond account and character name: Repukan - Donatello Versus

Banning admin: AlphaaBeta
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Servers (Both Basil and Sybil)

Ban reason and length: "Killing a non-antag wearing chameleon set, without asking questions. Said non-antag got it from antag and wasn't acting like one. Just because you've seen chameleon box with PDA and whatnot, it doesn't mean they are outright valid for kill" - 16 hour ban.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2016-08-11, 17:03:13

Your side of the story: Started game as miner, mine for a bit before dropping off materials for RnD, checked my PDA to see if we had any scientists and then went to bug scientists to do RnD. Noticed a weird PDA signal that read "the mime pda" and shrugged it off. Probably someone killed him and took his identity over, I thought. Move back to cargo and see the mime's backpack and PDA in disposals. Go searching through it to see if anything pertaining his murder could be found, and find a syndie box of a chameleon set half empty in it. Call over the radio to inform sec, they don't respond. Go over to the brig, get called a faggot by an aspie over radio, no one answers. Secure the evidence of the mime where i found it since it is inconspicuous enough to not be moved further and check to see who the mime is posing as. Find him and said aspie in the HoP line, kill him since he's a syndie and I'd rather do it now than later when they emag or kill stuff, get bwoinked while in lavaland as aspie yells threats towards me in radio.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I did what I did based on the evidence found. I didn't assume out of bad faith that he was an antagonist. I assumed he was because of the incriminating evidence in their bag. As far as I knew:

-Had enough points in his uplink to buy weapons (since chameleons are quite cheap)
-Was a traitor since this is an item that can only be gotten from uplink
-Sec was braindead, dead, or just jerking off over Araneus.

Furthermore, how is someone going to confirm whether another person is a syndicate member or not? You can't ask, because as soon as they see you typing they a weapon prepared to follow up on your question. You can gloat and screech about how bagil has a higher "standard" than sybil in those matters, but the truth of the matter is, at the end of the day, people will still shoot first and ask later. There is no way to 100% figure something out.

[Wyzack]

IF IT IS VALID THEN I MUST KILL XDXXDXD

[D&B]

IF IT IS VALID THEN I MUST KILL XDXXDXD

Yes, now go tell this to the people that do this every other round as well, since validhunting is prevalent in bagil too, but not as fierce as in sybil.

[onleavedontatme]

2 Do not use information gained outside of in character means.
I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

4 Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

[D&B]

2 Do not use information gained outside of in character means.
I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

4 Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

This was something raised in the ahelp discussion I had with Beta. He accused me of metagaming too, to which I responded that Metagaming is prevalent as well in the server since everyone yells "BLOB" when the level 5 bio-hazard alarm sounds, and that everyone yells OPS when they see someone flying with a hardsuit. For god's sakes, SECURE THE FUKKEN DISK is a meta meme.

[onleavedontatme]

And to a lesser extent,

4 Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

And importantly about the game in general

There is no way to 100% figure something out.

Which is by design, and the design falls apart if admin punishes players for playing within it (imagine a game of mafia or secret hitler where you got banned for a bad lynch/vote).

I'm not saying silentmurderspace because you saw an otherwise non violent "antag" is super high quality behaviour, but I don't think it's bannable.

[onleavedontatme]

You should really play on Sybil though since your playstyle clearly agitates basil admins and players and the other server is much more accommodating of this sort of thing.

[D&B]

And to a lesser extent,

4 Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

And importantly about the game in general

There is no way to 100% figure something out.

Which is by design, and the design falls apart if admin punishes players for playing within it (imagine a game of mafia or secret hitler where you got banned for a bad lynch/vote).

I'm not saying silentmurderspace because you saw an otherwise non violent "antag" is super high quality behaviour, but I don't think it's bannable.

I'm fine with it being frowned upon, in fact, I could care less since it's not something I do in every breathing moment my character is in action. I'd rather go get fiddled by goliaths in lavaland. But the appeal is due to how this is something extremely bizarre to ban someone for.

Also the agitation is supreme, nowhere else do i get this high quality salt.

[onleavedontatme]

Also the agitation is supreme, nowhere else do i get this high quality salt.

If you brag about making people upset it makes it kind of hard to unban you without me looking like a dumbass.

[D&B]

Also the agitation is supreme, nowhere else do i get this high quality salt.

If you brag about making people upset it makes it kind of hard to unban you without me looking like a dumbass.

Except my motives for staying in the server are irrelevant as to why I got banned.

And letting someone be wrongly punished because you don't like how they play is setting a horrible precedent, honestly.

[Xhagi]

Lets try and clear this up and move on.

"Killing a non-antag wearing chameleon set"

Right in the ban reasoning. Of which, I then point to the same rule Kor has pointed to:

4... "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag."

Which includes wearing/using traitor gear. I'd like to hear more of this from the banning admin, as it feels like we're missing something. If this really is all there is to it, I don't think this is a fair ban.

[onleavedontatme]

And letting someone be wrongly punished because you don't like how they play is setting a horrible precedent, honestly.

I agree, but-

1.Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, these conflicts should escalate properly and retribution must be proportionate."

And hard and fast rules aside it still makes me look like an idiot if I unban someone who says they delight in upsetting other people.

I mean I know the game is basically set up to let people upset each other, but you're not supposed to say it out loud.

[iamgoofball]

So killing antags is being a dick now?

[onleavedontatme]

So killing antags is being a dick now?

Not at all, but if you go "hehehe I'm making people salty" even while following the rules, eventually enough people get sick of you that you get thrown out (See: Dante)

[TribeOfBeavers]

Some additional context from the regret thread:

>Be Chap Syndie
>Think okay do a 40k gimmick
>Get my chainsword do a tc trade for a champions hardsuit
>Get the shit and thre chamleons suits to recruit others because we had no sec so play good guy syndie for onces
>Recruit mime get him suited up
>Mime disposes of his shit
>Shit ends up in cargo
>Donatello "The Fag" Versus instantly blames the mime for being a syndie
>He procceds to spear chuck the poor fucker to death
>All, that time wasted
>Ready to give up on gimmick, and just be reckless and go after the fag
>Decide against better judgement for retribution
>Sulk in bar for twenty minutes
>God tells me to go to my office find three chainswords
>Thought "Okay, so what?"
>The gimmick is on life support
>Gods bring back the mime as a ripely with a chainsword [imperial knight]
>Me and the new guy amadeus rockme patrol
>HAmadeus suicides I soul stone him
>We find donatello and also PURGE THE UNCLEAN
>Round turns into heresy extermination
>I die to lidveck
>Slightly pissed but I had fun

All in all fuck donatello with a ten yard spear.

[iamgoofball]

So killing an antag's event henchman wearing antag gear is bankable?

[Jacough]

Which includes wearing/using traitor gear. I'd like to hear more of this from the banning admin, as it feels like we're missing something. If this really is all there is to it, I don't think this is a fair ban.

Personally I think how they're using it and what they're using should kind of factor in to whether or not they're valid. I had a round once where the warden managed to score a chameleon projector from a captured traitor and just used it to fuck around a bit by disguising himself as an egun while standing in the halls waiting for people to run up and try to grab him before revealing himself and running away. Shit like that is just harmless fun and trying to use it as an excuse to chase them down and try to murder them seems like a shitty thing to do considering it's obviously just a joke and nothing malicious. Now a guy running around flashing some traitor weapons on the other hand, holy fuck you better believe that guy's valid as fuck. He's not just screwing around with some harmless gadget, he's actively waving around deadly weapons. Same with people fucking around with emags, they're screwing around with a device that's designed specifically to sabotage the station.

[D&B]

And letting someone be wrongly punished because you don't like how they play is setting a horrible precedent, honestly.

I agree, but-

1.Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, these conflicts should escalate properly and retribution must be proportionate."

And hard and fast rules aside it still makes me look like an idiot if I unban someone who says they delight in upsetting other people.

I mean I know the game is basically set up to let people upset each other, but you're not supposed to say it out loud.

Right, and I'll repeat it once over since by now it is getting wrongfully hardwired in your train of thought.

That was not running through my mind when the events took place. What was going through my head is that we had no Sec (or if we did, they were dead/braindead) and thus I decided to snab the antagonists before more damage could be done. Whether or not this was their intention, I do not know, nor did I have a way of knowing. If I said why i stay in bagil, is because that is the standard answer I give to all the mid rp memers that like to bitch at you in dead chat as soon as you kill someone rather than go through 6 pages of roleplay just to get something done.

Mentality or not, it is an unjust ban. And if it is approved, you're just setting a precedent for admins to alienate and pick off players they don't like and have them waiting, licking their lips as they pull an action not approved by this little group of mongrels that are selective in their playstyle. Why I disagree or dislike that playstyle is another issue that has no place being discussed here.

If it had been extended, then sure, let the event run. But there's a modicum of forces opposing antagonists. There always is. Banning someone because you decided, out of the blue, to run an event, is a dickish thing to do as well.

[Xhagi]

Which includes wearing/using traitor gear. I'd like to hear more of this from the banning admin, as it feels like we're missing something. If this really is all there is to it, I don't think this is a fair ban.

Personally I think how they're using it and what they're using should kind of factor in to whether or not they're valid.

Well sure, there are plenty of ways that you can use some traitor gear for harmless shenanigans. However what if that person that seems harmless suddenly pops and an esword and welp your dead. That's the unknwown of Space Station 13, and people either play along with the unknown gimick fun, or they act on the unknown and sometimes, that means validmurderspace.

I'm not the one to decide if one play style is better or not, that's my opinion and irrelevent. Everyone plays the game how they want to play it. I'm here to see if a rule was actually broken, and if it wasn't then the ban should not remain.

[lollerderby]

this ban is shit but so are you

[Screemonster]

The whole "this person has a thing, instantly kill them without a word - not because I have any reason to but just because I technically can" thing does kinda reek of good ol' Vlad Hunter. Reminds me of that guy a little while back that saw someone walk into a dorm room near roundstart, decided they must be an antag spawning their gear 'cause only antags spawning their gear go into dorms at roundstart, and welderbombed them. The fact that they were correct doesn't make it not shitty behaviour.

[TechnoAlchemist]

being mad about valid hunting is kind of pointless that's just how things are

this ban is bad and I don't blame OP for being bitter & wishing frustration and salt on those who got him banned.

[D&B]

this ban is shit but so are you

Love you too babycakes

[onleavedontatme]

I'm not saying I thought you were griefing, I'm saying me unbanning you once per week is not a sustainable way for you to play this game, and you being openly antagonistic makes it harder for both of us.

I have to balance "fairness under the rules as written" vs "this is a videogame, videogames are meant to be fun, and repeatedly sending a guy back to a server I don't even play on at the expense of the players there after he laughs about making them have less fun makes me look like an idiot and will make those people hate me"

All that said

[00:14:15]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Repukan/(Donatello Versus): Maybe outright killing people for antag gear is not a good idea, then?

[00:14:29]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Repukan/(Donatello Versus):And using meta to know what's accessible and what is not.

Kind of concerned that Alphaa doesn't seem to know the rules very well though (at least the written ones anyway, it's probably me who doesn't know the unwritten basil rules). Also yes, he was the one running the event.

I don't blame OP for being bitter & wishing frustration and salt on those who got him banned.

Whether he's rightfully mad or not it still makes it more miserable for me to stick my neck out for him, especially when he could just come to Sybil and everyone involved would be happier.

doesn't make it not shitty behaviour.

Sure, but we have to rewrite the rules then, not fair for players to get in trouble for following what's written down.

The ban is lifted, for what it's worth. Continually butting heads with admins on basil will only end in misery though. I'm not gonna do this forever.

[D&B]

I'm not saying I thought you were griefing, I'm saying me unbanning you once per week is not a sustainable way for you to play this game, and you being openly antagonistic makes it harder for both of us.

I have to balance "fairness under the rules as written" vs "this is a videogame, videogames are meant to be fun, and repeatedly sending a guy back to a server I don't even play on at the expense of the players there after he laughs about making them have less fun makes me look like an idiot and will make those people hate me"

All that said

[00:14:15]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Repukan/(Donatello Versus): Maybe outright killing people for antag gear is not a good idea, then?

[00:14:29]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Repukan/(Donatello Versus):And using meta to know what's accessible and what is not.

Kind of concerned that Alphaa doesn't seem to know the rules very well though (at least the written ones anyway, it's probably me who doesn't know the unwritten basil rules). Also yes, he was the one running the event.

I don't blame OP for being bitter & wishing frustration and salt on those who got him banned.

Whether he's rightfully mad or not it still makes it more miserable for me to stick my neck out for him, especially when he could just come to Sybil and everyone involved would be happier.

doesn't make it not shitty behaviour.

Sure, but we have to rewrite the rules then, not fair for players to get in trouble for following what's written down.

The ban is lifted, for what it's worth. Continually butting heads with admins on basil will only end in misery though.

I'll try to avoid the banhammer, but this was a sought out ban in my opinion. Not by me, by the admin in power.

I thank you all for your attention, and time taken.