[BobDobbington] Warned for defending work from shitcurity

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:47 am #234203

Byond account and character name: Reondin and Enjoys-Her-Sweets
Banning admin: BobDobbington
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Nothing but unfairly warned
Ban reason and length: To quote: "Warned - Murdered a security guard for stunning him with a tazer gun. He explained that the sec officer was behaving suspiciously. I explained that that isn't good enough." Notes are permanent unless appealed.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2016-12-11 06:03:05
Your side of the story: The CE was braindead in his office so I go to secure his gear as an engineer and Two people have broken into the Engineering lobby. Botanist Top Memer and MEDICAL security guard Nabooga Umbooga. Top Memer spams knocks on the window and pointing at the CE, while Nabooga Says "Hello" and "What is going on here?". After Top Memer points at the CE 20 more times, I say "Nabooga, can you get thisss hothead outta here?". It is at this point where the botanist says "Hes cutting us out" and Nobooga follows up with "Excuse me, open this door" I respond with a "Why?", but they begin beating down the window with toolboxes and what I at the time thought was a laser gun (it was just a practice one looking at the logs.) I call for security, but my PDA is PDA bombed and I am deafened.

I wake up to see they have broken down the window and have almost gotten through the grille. I activate the lockdown and Calvin (Co-worker) comes in and says something but I can't hear and just say they are breaking in. The Cap was nearby, so as I talk to the cap, they both break in, tase me and arrest Calvin who complains about shitcurity arresting us for no reason. They make their way to the braindead CE and grab him. The Botanist says "He is secured officer" and Nabooga says "Take him to security".

Now why are a botanist and a sec guard trying to arrest a CE who has been braindead since the shift began? I can come up with two reasons. 1. The Botanist is a traitor/ling and CE is his target, or two, something the CE has is his target. Realizing this and seeing the officer had his taser out, I disarmed him and stunned both of them after the botanist brained me in the head with a toolbox. Seeing as they are a team, I robust both of them to near crit with a nearby fire extinguisher and the officers stunbaton when he pulls it on me when he gets up.

Suddenly I see a .357 come out of nowhere (thrown by botanist and hit the officer, landing under him). I pick the .357 before either one of them could and unload in both and plan on letting cloning sort them out. I search them and find an unlocked PDA on the botanist.

Then I get bwoinked.

Why you think you should be unwarned: This was proper esculation from disarming to leathals. One Sec officer (who was not assigned to Engineering) under orders of a (traitor) BOTANIST came into engineering and would not answer why they were there and started breaking in to try and kidnap a braindead head of staff. I was simply defending my boss and my workplace from invaders. Shitcurity should not be wordless drones who break into departments wordlessly and take people unless its Red alert or higher.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:58 am #234204

Sweets wrote:Botanist Top Memer

This is the real tragedy here.

Mindustry · Post by **Mindustry** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:04 am #234206

I was Calvin Merryman, an engineer in this scenario. I think I was the first to see the CE braindead, so I looted his toolbelt and another engineer later took the rest of his gear. Later down the line after setting up the engine, I go to pick up the jetpack upgrade for my hardsuit and I see Enjoys-The-Sweets, a fellow engineer, Top Memer, a botanist plasma-man, and Noboonga Ubunnnga or whatever that security officers name was.

The area around Enjoys was blown up, so I recogonized she was probably deaf and I tried explaining to the officer that the botanist was breaking into the chief engineers office. Which he was doing right next to the officer. Top Memer then started throwing things into an electrified grille in an attempt to kill the CE via shocks. After Top Memer finishes breaking into the Chief Engineers office supervised by the security officer, the officer tases and cuffs me then chases after Sweets while the Captain drags me away and lets me go.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:36 am #234211

Upon reviewing the logs, I looked at everything the botanist and officer did that round. They didn't even speak to each other before getting into engineering. Now why on Earth would they both be trying to break into engineering to get the CE if they had never spoke? In addition, the officer never said more than these lines throughout the entire encounter.

[05:48:28]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga : What's going on here
[05:49:28]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga : Excuse me, open this door
[05:51:30]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga: Hello
[05:52:01]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga : We have a situation in engineering, i think the Chief engineer is evil or possessed ( he was braindead, I was deaf from a PDA bomb here)
[05:53:44]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/ : Take him to security

No reason why he is breaking in with a botanist ( and I mean breaking in. breaking down windows and grilles, botanist hacking doors, ect.), No reason why he wants the CE. Just wordlessly kidnapping my boss.

Oh and by the way.
was Top Memer the Botanist and died (used 20 TC)
Objective #1: Assassinate Edward Cullen, the Chief Engineer. Fail.
Objective #2: Escape on the shuttle or an escape pod alive and without being in custody. Fail.
The traitor has failed!

Surprise surprise, the botanist was trying to kill his target.

Edit: Oh lets not forget this happened too:

[05:52:39]ATTACK: Nabooga Umbooga() fired at Calvin Merryman() with the electrode Engineering (NEWHP: 100)(119,82,1)
[05:52:49]ATTACK: Nabooga Umbooga() handcuffed Calvin Merryman() (NEWHP: 100)(119,82,1)

And for full clarity, yes I started the fight after they started trying to drag my boss away. Here are the logs:
[05:53:44]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() disarmed Nabooga Umbooga() (NEWHP: 91)(124,72,1)
[05:53:45]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() disarmed Nabooga Umbooga() (NEWHP: 91)(124,72,1)
[05:53:46]ATTACK: Top Memer() attacked Edward Cullen() with mechanical toolbox(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70.3)(123,72,1)
[05:53:47]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Top Memer() with the electrode Engineering (NEWHP: 100)(121,73,1)
[05:53:47]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Top Memer() with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)(121,73,1)
[05:53:48]ATTACK: Edward Cullen(reondin) fired at floor with the electrode Engineering(123,72,1)
[05:53:48]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Nabooga Umbooga() with the electrode (NEWHP: 91)(121,72,1)
[05:53:52]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85)(121,72,1)
[05:53:53]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76)(121,72,1)
[05:53:54]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70)(121,72,1)
[05:53:55]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64)(124,72,1)
[05:53:56]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 58)(126,72,1)
[05:53:57]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with fire extinguisher(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 52)(126,72,1)

Officer got up here and pulled out stun baton and practice laser gun, which I thought was real

[05:54:00]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at floor with the electrode Engineering(118,72,1)
[05:54:00]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Nabooga Umbooga() with the electrode (NEWHP: 52)(121,72,1)
[05:54:07]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 46)(125,72,1)
[05:54:08]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 40)(125,72,1)
[05:54:09]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 34)(125,72,1)
[05:54:10]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Nabooga Umbooga() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 28)(126,72,1)
[05:54:11]ATTACK: Top Memer() hit Nabooga Umbooga() with the .357 revolver (NEWHP: 23.5)(125,72,1)
[05:54:14]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() stunned Top Memer() (NEWHP: 100)(124,72,1)
[05:54:14]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Top Memer() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 90)(124,72,1)
[05:54:15]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() stunned Top Memer() (NEWHP: 90)(124,72,1)
[05:54:15]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Top Memer() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80)(124,72,1)
[05:54:16]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() stunned Top Memer() (NEWHP: 80)(124,72,1)
[05:54:16]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() attacked Top Memer() with stunbaton(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70)(124,72,1)

Note this is where the officer got up and I was worried he would go for the gun. I didn't know if the botanist was in crit or not, so I grabbed it and figured I might as well finish it, because if I don't, they WILL kill me if I stop.

[05:54:23]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Top Memer() with the bullet Engineering (NEWHP: 70)(124,72,1)
[05:54:23]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Top Memer() with the bullet (NEWHP: 10)(124,72,1)
[05:54:23]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Top Memer() with the bullet Engineering (NEWHP: 10)(124,72,1)
[05:54:23]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Top Memer() with the bullet (NEWHP: -50)(124,72,1)
[05:54:24]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Top Memer() with the bullet Engineering (NEWHP: -50)(124,72,1)
[05:54:24]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Top Memer() with the bullet (NEWHP: -100)(124,72,1)
[05:54:30]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at floor with the bullet Engineering(112,75,1)
[05:54:31]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Nabooga Umbooga() with the bullet (NEWHP: -25)(112,75,1)
[05:54:31]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at floor with the bullet Engineering(110,75,1)
[05:54:32]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Nabooga Umbooga() with the bullet Engineering (NEWHP: -25)(112,75,1)
[05:54:32]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Nabooga Umbooga() with the bullet (NEWHP: -67)(112,75,1)
[05:54:33]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() fired at Nabooga Umbooga() with the bullet Engineering (NEWHP: -67)(112,75,1)
[05:54:33]ATTACK: Edward Cullen() shot Nabooga Umbooga() with the bullet (NEWHP: -109)(112,75,1)

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:36 am #234255

Sweets wrote:Snip

Thats a wall of text there.

Here's my efforts of trying to condense it.

CE is braindead
Botany is acting like security
Botanist is actually a traitor
Security does not realize this
Security is rounding up engineers
Security takes one of your coworkers, starts taking braindead CE
Botanist bops you with toolbox
You proceed to grab the tazer and shoot the Sec guard and the botanist
You robust both to death and somehow get a gun and shoot them? (this is a bit unclear)

My main question regarding this is could you not have dragged your CE away at some point? Maybe hide at the AI sat or something?

The main issue is this according to the rules

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Rule_1_Precedents wrote: "Acceptable escalation is defined as not using an excessive amount of force to control a situation. Proportionate retribution is defined as a relatively equal amount of force applied to someone in revenge for an earlier attack. Multiple factors are considered here, including but not limited to methods of force available to the involved players, who instigated the conflict and why, the state/general situation of the station, how the players involved end up. Excessive escalation or retribution, depending on the situation, may result in admin intervention, to warnings, to bans."

You weren't a antagonist. You were hit by a toolbox. You escalated that into a double homicide.

Anyways them's the facts.

Saegrimr wrote:
Sweets wrote:Botanist Top Memer
This is the real tragedy here.

One of the few times I'll agree with you.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:07 pm #234261

castle doctrine and freedom.

Engineers have no duty to retreat or de-escalate in their own department. Engineers also do not start with stuncuff capabilities. Current escalation rules allow critting in serious or repeated intruder scenarios and this was very serious. The moment a .357 dropped out of nowhere, it's arguable they had a solemn duty to in fact take no chances and kill the intruders in their holy land.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:12 pm #234263

I looked into it, yes the Botanist was a traitor. As for the sec officer I have no idea, just general stupidity.

Relevant attack logs.

Spoiler:

You were out of line, and only got a warning out of this.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:33 pm #234268

I'm not seeing it

The botanist and security officer are plausibly acting in a manner which any experienced player will see signs of unexplained and suspicious cooperation in.

They start to break in- why? More suspicion.

The security officer fires first- the engineer has done nothing wrong at that point and there aren't under any obligation to go quietly when they have reason for suspicion and haven't done anything suspicious themselves.

The engineer simply outrobusts both and engineers are also under no obligation to quickly make stuncuff gear or make it at all. They cannot ask for security as security are involved. Critting the botanist and officer is a simple straightforward method to controlling the situation.

Players cannot be expected to make calculated and rational decisions during fights. The engineer is already suspicious and a .357 revolver appears. Remember there is a fight going on right now. What player wouldn't immediately take the revolver and shoot their assailants?

Unless I'm missing something it seems like two possible metacomms players getting outrobusted and trying to get the person who killed them banned in retaliation.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:49 pm #234271

imblyings wrote:castle doctrine and freedom.

Am I correct in saying you are arguing

" Murdering security because they are "out of place" is a valid tactic, precedent and is justifiable "

For reference the castle doctrine you are referring to is:

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.

imblyings wrote: Engineers have no duty to retreat or de-escalate in their own department. Engineers also do not start with stuncuff capabilities. Current escalation rules allow critting in serious or repeated intruder scenarios and this was very serious. The moment a .357 dropped out of nowhere, it's arguable they had a solemn duty to in fact take no chances and kill the intruders in their holy land.

Again there was only one attack by the "intruders" (after the engineer started stealing the stun gun) and the engineer didn't know if they were antagonists or not before getting them to nigh critical condition.

If a security officer was to murder a engineer for being in the brig area (not the armory, just the brig area) because the CE ordered the engineer to fix the windows or something, I can guarantee that the security officer would be boinked.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:56 pm #234272

imblyings wrote:I'm not seeing it

The botanist and security officer are plausibly acting in a manner which any experienced player will see signs of unexplained and suspicious cooperation in.

They start to break in- why? More suspicion.

The security officer fires first- the engineer has done nothing wrong at that point and there aren't under any obligation to go quietly when they have reason for suspicion and haven't done anything suspicious themselves.

The engineer simply outrobusts both and engineers are also under no obligation to quickly make stuncuff gear or make it at all. They cannot ask for security as security are involved. Critting the botanist and officer is a simple straightforward method to controlling the situation.

Players cannot be expected to make calculated and rational decisions during fights. The engineer is already suspicious and a .357 revolver appears. Remember there is a fight going on right now. What player wouldn't immediately take the revolver and shoot their assailants?

Unless I'm missing something it seems like two possible metacomms players getting outrobusted and trying to get the person who killed them banned in retaliation.

Spoiler:

Security is rounding up people. Talks to Engineer who can't hear

Spoiler:

Engineer steals taser

Spoiler:

Botanist gets a attack in

Spoiler:

Engineer decides to beat both to death
Botanist shoots sec guard in a unrobust fashion and then Engineer steals gun

Spoiler:

Engineer kills both secguard and botanist.

The engineer even admitted he was the aggressor.

Spoiler:

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:13 pm #234274

Your example is not an argument. Protecting the CE from two suspicious players is.

The note is for killing them. They were killed when they dropped the revolver. The moment they toss a revolver into the equation after acting in a suspicious manner is when no player is expected to act like it's a game of chess played over FNR posts.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:16 pm #234275

imblyings wrote:The moment they toss a revolver into the equation after acting in a suspicious manner is when no player is expected to act like it's a game of chess played over FNR posts.

Because first response to any situation should be disarming a taser from sec the second they show up and start beating them to death.

Perfect. I love it.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:22 pm #234276

Sec show up breaking into the CE's office with a botanist.

You know stuns are a shoot first and win deal.

The engineer knows there isn't any reason he can think of to let the two break in. He has no stunprod or handcuffs. Is he meant to let them break in? Let two suspicious players, one who definitely has access to stun gear, into engineering when he actually has cause to believe he's done nothing that would reasonably attract the attention of security? There's also one of the pair throwing things at the grille and causing tesla shocks.

If this is about curbing validboners, it was a well-intentioned but a mis-directed effort. In this case, it's not about valid mindsets as the engineer never directly sought antags out. It happened on his home turf where the information he had suggested it was a suspicious intrusion.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:26 pm #234280

I'm glad we're back to the "I got stunned therefore I was marked for death time to valid whoever stunned me" shitfest from not terribly long ago, and nobody was even banned.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:27 pm #234281

People being noted for being smart and robust rub me the wrong way, especially when they didn't go out of their way to be smart and robust to everyone they met while scouring maint.

Fuck saeg it's not even about hurr stunned better kill him now

One player acts smart, realizes dodgy shit is going on, proactively defends their department after people already start breaking in. A revolver drops, upping the stakes, and the most robust player wins and gets noted. It's as IC as it gets and never needed a note.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:30 pm #234283

imblyings wrote:Your example is not an argument. Protecting the CE from two suspicious players is.

The note is for killing them. They were killed when they dropped the revolver. The moment they toss a revolver into the equation after acting in a suspicious manner is when no player is expected to act like it's a game of chess played over FNR posts.

They were half dead already. He wasn't beating them with help intent. The revolver was just a afterthought that happened later.

Killing someone for arresting the CE isn't a correct action either. Everything he did was based on assumptions. Incorrect assumptions on basis of the security officer.

If you can show me where the officer struck the engineer or deserved to die let me know.

In addition if you can find something in our policies and rules where you are allowed to kill officers that are in your department and even say "please let me in" FNR other than (they looked sneaky) please state it.

Castle doctrine does not allow you to dunk people for just being in your department. If you have a problem with that I would suggest you change the rules of the server.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:39 pm #234285

Arresting a braindead CE, in his office.

Accompanied by a botanist.

While deaf, so they acted on the information they knew which means anything the officer said is entirely irrelevant.

He has no cuffs. The fight could also have gone either way, making it irrelevant.

The revolver dropped and a player chose to use it. If the players didn't want to die, they should not have bought it and then threw it. If OP had not used it, he most likely would have died.

I wrote the rules and the rules were meant to use admin judgement with precedents meant to be written down as they happened, which never did happen. You know this specific precedent has not happened before, not under these exact circumstances and your request is irrelevant. I base what I say off what OP knew and what actions they took based off what they knew, which is the only way to go about an admin investigation.

Security have all the protection in the world, more than they ever have. If a circumstances arises when both parties have limited information and security are acting in a suspicious manner, then no player is expected to go quietly.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:40 pm #234286

It would be helpful to note who ahelped. The sec officer or the salty antag. And judging by these logs.

[05:54:57]SAY: Wayne Robertson/: FUCK OFF
-censored(asay/apm/ahelp/notes/etc)-
[05:54:58]SAY: Kat Richards/: W'here'?

[05:54:56]ATTACK: Edward Cullen(reondin) stripped Top Memer of PDA-Top Memer (Botanist) (NEWHP: -100)(124,72,1)

Versus

[05:54:33]ATTACK: Edward Cullen(reondin) shot Nabooga Umbooga(vsleepsterv) with the bullet (NEWHP: -109)(112,75,1)

I'm leaning towards a salty antag.

Also two more things of note.

Saegrimr wrote:
imblyings wrote:The moment they toss a revolver into the equation after acting in a suspicious manner is when no player is expected to act like it's a game of chess played over FNR posts.
Because first response to any situation should be disarming a taser from sec the second they show up and start beating them to death.

Perfect. I love it.

It was not the second they showed up. this was conflict going on for multiple minutes. In addition I was shot at multiple times and shocked by a tesla grille by the botanist (Saved by hardsuit and gloves) and KNEW there were traitors aboard from my PDA exploding. In addition, I knew there were not nuke ops because lings were already confirmed from monkey shenanigans above.

starmute wrote:
imblyings wrote:castle doctrine and freedom.
Am I correct in saying you are arguing

" Murdering security because they are "out of place" is a valid tactic, precedent and is justifiable "

Again there was only one attack by the "intruders" (after the engineer started stealing the stun gun) and the engineer didn't know if they were antagonists or not before getting them to nigh critical condition.

If a security officer was to murder a engineer for being in the brig area (not the armory, just the brig area) because the CE ordered the engineer to fix the windows or something, I can guarantee that the security officer would be boinked.

I am saying if they are belligerantly causing damage and not answering questions, then yes. Keep in mind that this was also during CODE BLUE.
Elevated alert level. There are reports or other proof available to indicate that there is a threat to the station. When a Centcom threat summary is received and printed at communication consoles (happens automatically every roundstart), the blue alert level is applied.

Suit sensors are mandatory, but coordinate positions are not required.
Security may have weapons visible.
Crew members may be searched by security with probable cause.
AI/Cyborgs may bolt down high secure areas.
Energy guns, laser guns and riot gear are allowed to be given out to security personnel if the HoS or Warden agree.

What was his probable cause? Why was he busting in to arrest a braindead with a BOTANIST who he did not talk to all shift til he got to engineering and started breaking in? Something he shouldn't have been doing anyway BECAUSE:

Code Red - Immediate Threat

Maximum alert level. There is an immediate threat to the station or severe damage. Martial Law is in effect.

Suit sensors are to be turned fully on at all times.
Security can raid departments and arrest any crew member deemed a threat to the station.
All crew members must remain in their departments.
AI/Cyborgs may bolt down maintenance and airlocks leading to space.

This was not code red. This was code blue and a shitcurity officer did not answer why to be let in and resorted to hacking/breaking in with a traitorous botanist.

And to answer your "If a security officer was to murder a engineer for being in the brig area (not the armory, just the brig area) because the CE ordered the engineer to fix the windows or something, I can guarantee that the security officer would be boinked." If that engineer helped a botanist break down two electrified grilles and hacked open a door while the sec officer was asking "Why should I let you in?" and not responding, No admin in the world would bat an eye for him harmbatonning both. OH WAIT. HE WOULDNT HAVE TO BECAUSE HE READILY HAS STUNS AND CUFFS. Now what is an engineer supposed to do?

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:46 pm #234288

Also another note: I went straight to cloning and had the officer cloned after this and waited in medbay sec post. I talked to two other officers, Woodrow Wilson and Detective >GOOFBALL, who okayed my actions, and turned over the traitor gear, taser and baton. I also took the traitors PDA with another officer to RND for research purposes.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:58 pm #234289

imblyings wrote:
I wrote the rules

First the rules have been here far before you ausops.. You may have contributed but they are a living document made by many people and time, experience and effort has been put into them. XSI, Giacom Intigracy, SOS and many others did just as much if not more. You are not Judge Dread in this situation.

PS it was stickymayhem who wrote that particular section.

imblyings wrote:

Arresting a braindead CE, in his office.

Accompanied by a botanist.

Which is allowed. Apparently the botanist had insulated gloves as stated by op. The officer did not. Op also stated he was deaf so he did not know the circumstances.

It could be protective custody. Or something as simple as taking off his armor to see who he was.

While deaf, so they acted on the information they knew which means anything the officer said is entirely irrelevant.

Double edged sword there. That also means they can't make assumptions

He has no cuffs. The fight could also have gone either way, making it irrelevant.

The officer never started a fight. In fact he never shot him once. If viewed alone the engineer stole his tazer and baton and harmbattoned the officer to crit for no apparent reason other than he was breaking into the CE's office.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:07 pm #234290

What was his probable cause? Why was he busting in to arrest a braindead with a BOTANIST who he did not talk to all shift til he got to engineering and started breaking in? Something he shouldn't have been doing anyway BECAUSE:

How would he explain it to you? You were deaf as you stated. Even if he could explain it to you he doesn't have to.

BTW I wasn't in this round. However the rules lawyer shtick annoyed me so I have look at it from a factual perspective. The big thing to me is that you stole his taser shot the security officer and without provocation you started harm battoning him to death. (this was before the entrance of the 357 according to you) Regardless I just don't see the "just escalation" aside from you suspecting things. If I killed everyone I suspected of being a traitor there would be a large plasma flood the start of each and every round.

Ausops is saying that you should be able to kill officers who are in your department if they are slant eyed and suffer no repercussions, which I disagree with.

Post by **Archie700** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:14 pm #234291

Sweets wrote:Upon reviewing the logs, I looked at everything the botanist and officer did that round. They didn't even speak to each other before getting into engineering. Now why on Earth would they both be trying to break into engineering to get the CE if they had never spoke?

I'm going to have to ask this, did anyone ever speak about CE being a criminal BEFORE they went to engineering?

Because that sounds like metacomms.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:22 pm #234294

Archie700 wrote:
Sweets wrote:Upon reviewing the logs, I looked at everything the botanist and officer did that round. They didn't even speak to each other before getting into engineering. Now why on Earth would they both be trying to break into engineering to get the CE if they had never spoke?
I'm going to have to ask this, did anyone ever speak about CE being a criminal BEFORE they went to engineering?

Because that sounds like metacomms.

Could be. But he wouldn't know it. And its something to investigate on its own.

EDIT

Just read the logs.

[05:42:24] Roundstart

[05:46:27]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Hos
[05:46:28]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Is it true
[05:46:36]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Are you being fired
[05:46:35]SAY: Jerry Khan/NotIrvanBTW : Well
[05:46:37]SAY: Jerry Khan/NotIrvanBTW : I'ma miner
[05:47:11]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Welcome in
[05:48:23]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Hello
[05:48:28]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : What's going on here
[05:49:28]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Excuse me, open this door
[05:49:23]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Hes cutting us out
[05:50:13]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : I think nanotrasen just BSA'd him
[05:50:40]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Dont touch that
[05:51:30]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Hello
[05:52:01]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : We have a situation in engineering, i think the Chief engineer is evil or possessed
[05:52:14]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Stand back officer
[05:53:44]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Take him to security

One second later
[05:54:33]EMOTE: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : <B>Nabooga Umbooga</B> seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless...

Reading the logs further
Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV does not talk much however usually plays a security officer. VSleepsterV starts at [05:43:26] He quits the game at [10:00:17] in fact Nabooga Umbooga only has 97 lines of speech or login information over 5 hours.

Top Memer/Kilkun is a talker and starts at [04:37:06] and quits at [06:53:43] never the less he has 57 lines of text

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:39 pm #234297

starmute wrote:

What was his probable cause? Why was he busting in to arrest a braindead with a BOTANIST who he did not talk to all shift til he got to engineering and started breaking in? Something he shouldn't have been doing anyway BECAUSE:
How would he explain it to you? You were deaf as you stated. Even if he could explain it to you he doesn't have to.

BTW I wasn't in this round. However the rules lawyer shtick annoyed me so I have look at it from a factual perspective. The big thing to me is that you stole his taser shot the security officer and without provocation you started harm battoning him to death. (this was before the entrance of the 357 according to you) Regardless I just don't see the "just escalation" aside from you suspecting things. If I killed everyone I suspected of being a traitor there would be a large plasma flood the start of each and every round.

Ausops is saying that you should be able to kill officers who are in your department if they are slant eyed and suffer no repercussions, which I disagree with.

I was deafened halfway into the conversation. I heard the following.

[05:49:20]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : SSStop.
[05:49:23]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Hes cutting us out
[05:49:28]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : SSSec to engineering.
[05:49:28]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Excuse me, open this door
[05:49:35]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : Why?
[05:49:50]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : SSSEC TO ENGINEERING FASSST!!

OH LOOK I DIDNT SHOOT OR ATTACK FIRST WITHOUT TRYING TO SETTLE THE MATTER. I CALLED FOR SEC TWICE!

[05:49:55]GAME: Explosion with size (-1, -1, 2, 0) in area Chief Engineer's office (118,83,1) (My PDA going boom loss of hearing here)
[05:50:13]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : I think nanotrasen just BSA'd him
[05:50:19]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : Great.
[05:50:24]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : Have to do it all myssself.
[05:50:27]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : Fine.
[05:50:40]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Dont touch that
[05:50:59]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : My PDA blew.
[05:51:00]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Thanks
[05:51:05]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : RIP
[05:51:11]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : What are you guys doing?
[05:51:24]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Stop thatr.
[05:51:30]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : Hello
[05:51:44]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : Fuck them.
[05:51:50]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : I dunno what they want.
[05:52:01]SAY: Nabooga Umbooga/VSleepsterV : We have a situation in engineering, i think the Chief engineer is evil or possessed
[05:52:06]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Sec.

OH LOOK THE CAPTAIN MAYBE SHE CAN HELP!

[05:52:07]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : KAT
[05:52:08]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : WHY
[05:52:10]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : What are you going?
[05:52:11]SAY: Kat Richards/Artsauce : Whhhaht?
[05:52:12]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : ARE BOTANISSSTSSS
[05:52:14]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : AND SSSHIT
[05:52:14]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Stand back officer
[05:52:14]SAY: Kat Richards/Artsauce : Immm d'ruuunk
[05:52:16]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : What are you doing?
[05:52:17]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : BREAKING IN
[05:52:20]SAY: Kat Richards/Artsauce : Dunno
[05:52:26]SAY: Kat Richards/Artsauce : He he hhhe
I regain hearing here
[05:52:26]SAY: Edward Cullen/Reondin : CE isss braindead
[05:52:44]SAY: Top Memer/Kilkun : Get he!
[05:52:51]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : What the fuck are you doing?
[05:53:00]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Captain
[05:53:00]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Help
[05:53:08]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Shitcurity arresting us in our department.
[05:53:19]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Botanist broke in.
[05:53:23]SAY: Calvin Merryman/Mindustry : Whats going on?
[05:53:29]SAY: Kat Richards/Artsauce : Weeeee

NOPE CAP JUST STOLE CALVIN AND RAN OFF WITH HIM!

At this point I can either let two vandals kidnap my braindead boss, or dunk them.

Oh and by the way. The officer shot at me.

[05:50:50]ATTACK: Nabooga Umbooga(vsleepsterv) fired at Edward Cullen(levavonkama) with the electrode Engineering Foyer (NEWHP: 100)(118,80,1) Guess who was right between the CE and the officer. Thankfully it hit the grille.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:00 pm #234301

do not quote rules you do not understand and certainly not to the person who wrote them

you are intentionally being difficult by ignoring contextual information regarding cues from player behaviour and understandable player tendencies to protect their department and boss, both of which are factors to consider.

the rules allowing security and a botanist to break into the CE's office does not give them protection from IC consequences

>If a circumstances arises when both parties have limited information and security are acting in a suspicious manner, then no player is expected to go quietly.

implies exactly that, a player is not expected to go quietly. It does not say kill. I specifically say 'go quietly', because when someone reasonable makes such a statement, that statement is made in consideration of the large variety of possible situations that could happen and the large variety of possible actions a player can take. Do not misquote me.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:04 pm #234304

Sweets wrote:
OH LOOK THE CAPTAIN MAYBE SHE CAN HELP!

NOPE CAP JUST STOLE CALVIN AND RAN OFF WITH HIM!

At this point I can either let two vandals kidnap my braindead boss, or dunk them.

[05:50:50]ATTACK: Nabooga Umbooga(vsleepsterv) fired at Edward Cullen(levavonkama) with the electrode Engineering Foyer (NEWHP: 100)(118,80,1) Guess who was right between the CE and the officer. Thankfully it hit the grille.

So the cap arrested one of your coworkers and you decide to go on a murder spree? Frankly this seems to be a bunch of excuses. I'm done. I don't know why I got involved in the first place.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:08 pm #234306

because the term 'castle doctrine' is good bait

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:11 pm #234307

imblyings wrote:do not quote rules you do not understand and certainly not to the person who wrote them. Do not misquote me.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about how long we've both been here, and who understands the rules better that's absolutely stupid. I never "misquoted you". I simply stated what I perceive you are saying. If you're not saying that then there must be some miscommunication. Sorry I felt I had to respond to this because you are implying I don't understand the rules here. Done for reals this time.

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:14 pm #234310

All this shitstorm for a NOTE, not even a ban. I'm locking this until the admin that gave the note or if the headmins have anything to say.

onleavedontatme · Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:37 pm

Ausops is right

Bob Dobbington · Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:42 pm

This is dumb. Attack logs show a security officer tased you once, then you beat him to death with a stunbaton. All of your minimodding trying to catch metagamers is irrelevant. If you want to fight metacoms ahelp or ask a headmin for candidate. It was improper escalation and, since you don't have a history in the notes of improper escalation, you were warned instead of receiving a dayban. The note will stay.

onleavedontatme · Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:58 pm

Bob Dobbington wrote:This is dumb. Attack logs show a security officer tased you once, then you beat him to death with a stunbaton. All of your minimodding trying to catch metagamers is irrelevant. If you want to fight metacoms ahelp or ask a headmin for candidate. It was improper escalation and, since you don't have a history in the notes of improper escalation, you were warned instead of receiving a dayban. The note will stay.

Two people broke into his workplace to try and kidnap his boss, they both attacked him, he killed them both, one had the objective to kill said boss at round end. How is that minimodding?

Attack logs show a security officer tased you once, then you beat him to death with a stunbaton

Yeah of course it looks stupid if you take away all context. But he picked up on all the clues, he was entirely correct.

EDIT: Yeah I know it's "just a note" until this note is used to show he's a garbage player and treat him suspiciously in future interactions, and it bothers me that in a game with limited information and very lethal weapons someone was treated as a griefer for acting on his gut.

Krusvik · Post by **Krusvik** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:42 pm #234499

This turned into a shitstorm and the forum is now locked, there's nothing left to say so I will be brief.

I agree with Ausops.

I will be lifting the note.

/tg/Station 13

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