Bones Mcgee, Acid spray on malf round

[ThatSlyFox]

Your byond account: ThatSlyFox
Your character name: Jim Otis
Their character name: Bones Mcgee
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it):
Server and time:around 11:30 (Edit: 11:30pm central time)

Description of what happened: Asked the HoP for all access at round start so they send me on a scavenger hunt. Find the area they gave me access to 3 times and I get all access. I found 2 and wanted to cheat for the last one (Evil I know) so I teleport onto the bridge (teleporter room door was left open). A shit ton of us end up teleporting into the bridge captain included and he ends up throwing them out or them leaving on their own. Bones shows up all of a sudden and batons me and tries to drag me out. I disarm, take his baton, and stash it in my bag. Around this time I get the captain's attention and he proceeds to check the access on my id. Bones tries to cuff me, fails, and then starts trying to drag me out. Captain gives me back my ID. I run out, captain batons me for some reason and bones lets loose with the acid. ded. Turns out it is a malf round. I can understand him being mad at losing his baton but I doubt he even cared about it since he turned it into ash.

This is right before he batons me:

Spoiler:

Dingus Mcgee has disarmed Zeke Vogel!
Jim Otis says, "Check the access on my id"
[Common] security newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
Jim Otis has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Bones McGee!
Jim Otis has disarmed Bones McGee!
You collapse the baton.
You put the telescopic baton into the satchel.
Jim Otis says, "captain"
You remove the ID from the PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter).
Bones McGee says, "Give it back right now or you die."
Dingus Mcgee says, "What do you want"
Jim Otis says, "check the access"
Dingus Mcgee says, "Okay I'll check"
Bones McGee says, "3"
Jim Otis says, "Nooo"
Bones McGee says, "2"
Jim Otis says, "wait"
[Common] Elle Lowell says, "Clown what an unfair thing to write in front of brig. You've had no experiences with our quality thus far to make such a claim."
Daniela Hist hisses, "Rude"
Ian woofs, "Woof!"
Dingus Mcgee says, "Nope"
Bones McGee is trying to put handcuffs on Jim Otis!
Jim Otis has disarmed Bones McGee!
Ian woofs, "Woof!"
Dingus Mcgee says, "You do not have Bridge access"
[Common] Matthew Tiberium says, "Security, a lizardman wearing blue attacked me in arivles."
Bones McGee examines himself.
You place the handcuffs into the disposal unit.
[Common] Alan Herrmerrrn says, "Lizzy Ari is asaulting people"
Dingus Mcgee has thrown Jim Otis's ID Card (Scavenger Hunter).
Jim Otis has been hit by Jim Otis's ID Card (Scavenger Hunter).
You put the ID into PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter)'s slot.
[Common] Cecil Sik says, "SECURITY TO MEDBAY"
Jim Otis has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Dingus Mcgee!
Dingus Mcgee puts the telescopic baton into the captain's satchel.
The light tube melts away!
The black jumpsuit melts away!
The black shoes melts away!
PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter) melts away!

Why they should be banned: For being a special type of shit who feels he can do whatever he wants as a head. He did try to clone me afterwards but that still did not give him the right to acid all my shit and kill me.

[QuartzCrystal]

Bones McGee has been directed to this thread to state their side of the issue.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Not gonna make this too wordy. Being how you were in the bridge uninvited, I tried to remove you. You disarmed me because i'm bad and I asked for the baton back. I told you that if you did not give it back I would kill you, I began a count down.(Although my intent was never to kill you, just a threat.) You ran away, I pursued and since I had no real way of stopping you, I used the spray I had to try to stop you, given that I was under the impression from formal experience that a single burst of spray would not kill you, especially at 5u. However, I'm not completely sure why, you died from the single burst, maybe because you were knocked down as I was spraying. Knowing that what I had just done was murder, I brought your body to genetics for cloning, I tried multiple times but the interface failed. So, you were morgue'd. I believe next I proceeded to the sec officer in med bay and told her that I had just killed a man, they asked me a couple questions and then ascertained that it was fine.

Not that it matters at all but the baton did survive in your backpack.

I am sorry that you ended up dying, it was a freak accident really, my intent was to incapacitate, not kill. However, I wish you'd accepted the cloning and filed a formal complaint with the Captain or Head of Security.

[ThatSlyFox]

Considering all the shit that was going on a complaint to them wouldn't have done anything.

This is all I have to say about this. He killed me and melted all my shit because I took his baton. He batoned me because he ran into a situation and thought he was in the right. You need to stop thinking you have so much power as a head Bones. This isn't the first time nor will it be the last.

[BlessedHeretic]

Not gonna make this too wordy. Being how you were in the bridge uninvited, I tried to remove you. You disarmed me because i'm bad and I asked for the baton back. I told you that if you did not give it back I would kill you, I began a count down.(Although my intent was never to kill you, just a threat.) You ran away, I pursued and since I had no real way of stopping you, I used the spray I had to try to stop you, given that I was under the impression from formal experience that a single burst of spray would not kill you, especially at 5u. However, I'm not completely sure why, you died from the single burst, maybe because you were knocked down as I was spraying. Knowing that what I had just done was murder, I brought your body to genetics for cloning, I tried multiple times but the interface failed. So, you were morgue'd. I believe next I proceeded to the sec officer in med bay and told her that I had just killed a man, they asked me a couple questions and then ascertained that it was fine.

Not that it matters at all but the baton did survive in your backpack.

I am sorry that you ended up dying, it was a freak accident really, my intent was to incapacitate, not kill. However, I wish you'd accepted the cloning and filed a formal complaint with the Captain or Head of Security.

My big problem with this entire response is the fact you had poly acid in a spray bottle on your person without being an antagonist or ever NEEDING that poly acid for anything, other than to be a power gamey exploiter. This is akin to toxins personal having voice triggered toxins bombs on their person for no reason other than to kill someone trying to kill them, or a miner/assistant making stun prods "JUST IN CASE!". If you had heard nuke ops!, or had personally been assaulted previously I would be looking at this different, but simply put. This is terrible behavior.

I'm consulting with the bus over this issue.

[ThatSlyFox]

Happy someone took a interest in this.

[oranges]

Isn't ThatSlyFox guilty of greytiding then?

[Timbrewolf]

Guy not supposed to be on bridge refuses to leave bridge when HoS attempts to make him leave.

Instead lol2robust4u takes his baton and still refuses to leave.

Finally gets killed.

Sorry is there a problem here? This seems like just another day in the life of grey tide.

It looks like the captain even helped and didn't try to demote or report the HoS so it seems fair to me. Major trespassing, assaulting an officer, resisting arrest, assault of a head, stealing a weapon...

[BlessedHeretic]

Guy not supposed to be on bridge refuses to leave bridge when HoS attempts to make him leave.

Instead lol2robust4u takes his baton and still refuses to leave.

Finally gets killed.

Sorry is there a problem here? This seems like just another day in the life of grey tide.

It looks like the captain even helped and didn't try to demote or report the HoS so it seems fair to me. Major trespassing, assaulting an officer, resisting arrest, assault of a head, stealing a weapon...

A non antagonist spraying anyone with a lethal chemical when there are accessible means of non violently removing people is shit anon. Especially so since we gave ALL the heads of staff tele-batons. Having polyacid in a spray bottle for no reason and then using it against someone for the slightest infraction? That's not good behavior, not good game play and definitely not supported by the rules. This is kill bait to the extreme.

[ThatSlyFox]

In my opinion if it was the HoS it would have been much worse, but it was the CMO.

I am sorry that you ended up dying, it was a freak accident really, my intent was to incapacitate, not kill. However, I wish you'd accepted the cloning and filed a formal complaint with the Captain or Head of Security.

As the logs show I was talking to the captain and we even had a chat before bones even showed up and decided for me to leave.
Logs:

Spoiler:

Jim Otis says, "HUMAN PRIDE STATION WIDE"
Dick Johnson says, "we have to wear blue now"
Misted Bait puts the welding helmet into the industrial backpack.
Dingus Mcgee says, "Get the fuck out"
[Common] Daniela Hist asks, "By law does-ss-s-s this-ss-s-s mean I can s-ss-s-shoot any human not wearing blue?"
Miku Frost says, "Tch, fuck that."
Dick Johnson asks, "right?"
Dick Johnson says, "they arent taking my black"
[Common] security newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
Jim Otis says, "Captain stop siding with the lizards"
Miku Frost says, "Doubt they'll try to make me wear blue, it's be hazardous to their health."
Dingus Mcgee says, "Jim you're retarded"
Dick Johnson says, "same here"
Dick Johnson says, "i am armed with a hatchet"
You apply the bruise pack on yourself.
Dingus Mcgee says, "It's called segregation"
You put the bruise pack into the first-aid kit.
[Common] Keta Karpland asks, "Has security ordered some blue security outfits from Cargo yet?"
Dingus Mcgee says, "We are SEGREGATING them"
Dick Johnson asks, "wanna go get drinks?"
[Common] Sleeps-in-the-buff exclaims, "All borthers-s-ss-s and s-s-ss-sis-s-ss-sters-s-ss-s....Lizard people and Apes-s-ss-s..let us-s-ss-s now realis-s-ss-se that we are all truly blees-s-ss-sed to have the choice to achive s-s-ss-sladck and reach the inner s-s-ss-sub-genii in us-s-ss-s all!"
Miku Frost pats her palm with her fist. "Don't need a weapon to deal with those idiots."
[Common] Daniela Hist hisses, "But. I'm a lizard s-ss-s-sec"
Jim Otis says, "Then throw them into the dorms"
Dick Johnson says, "fuck yeah"
Miku Frost says, "Guess so, nothing else to do."
Dingus Mcgee says, "Sure but get out"
Dingus Mcgee has disarmed Zeke Vogel!
Jim Otis says, "Check the access on my id"
[Common] security newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
newscaster beeps, "Breaking news from LIZARD KNOCK OUTS!"
Jim Otis has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Bones McGee!
Jim Otis has disarmed Bones McGee!

And then I proceeded to get his attention again and then leave. Again no idea why he stunned me. I doubt he even saw me get sprayed with acid since he ran away as soon as he did it.

Edit: Just a thought anon, you really think it would be ok for a HoS to even be carrying around acid spray let alone using it on a already downed man? The guy spawns with two eguns.

[ThatSlyFox]

ITT admin who is incapable of reading.

He tried batonning him first to remove him, and then the graytider's reaction was to instead steal the baton from him. And then the CMO told him if he didn't give him back his baton that he was going to kill him.

How at that point was he supposed to remove him? He told him if he didn't give the baton back he was going to get killed, it's his own damn fault he died.

Calling security is always a option. He seems to have wanted me to complain to security as well. Funny how that works.

However, I wish you'd accepted the cloning and filed a formal complaint with the Captain or Head of Security.

Maybe I should have just been a engineer or some shit and this greytiding argument would have been thrown out the window. Since you know a greyshirt doing anything but breathing is tiding right?

[Timbrewolf]

In my opinion if it was the HoS it would have been much worse, but it was the CMO.

Sorry, I didn't see anything in the logs or request to indicate which head was responsible, so I automatically assumed if he's chasing you with a baton and trying to cuff you he's the HoS. When I hear "baton" I think BATON and not "tele-baton".

As the logs show I was talking to the captain and we even had a chat before bones even showed up and decided for me to leave.
Logs:
Spoiler:

Which person is the Captain here?
I see multiple people telling people to get the fuck out, and someone calling you retarded.

Edit: Just a thought anon, you really think it would be ok for a HoS to even be carrying around acid spray let alone using it on a already downed man? The guy spawns with two eguns.

I was curious about that but it's possible he confiscated it off someone. Just having weapons isn't a crime, even if they're really robust. It's how you use them. In this case your actions in trespassing on the bridge, fighting with a head, etc. could've added up to a 10 minute brig timer or more. In situations where you're staring at a 10+ timer execution, force borging, or permabrigging are all acceptable.

...though according to the CMO that wasn't his intent. And he did drag you right over to get cloned. I fail to see how this is something you didn't instigate and escalate. When you're trespassing people don't have to explain to you why they're trying to make you leave or why you don't belong there.

[ThatSlyFox]

Dingus Mcgee was the captain. Bones the CMO. In the first logs I posted we ended up all walking to the HoP office to check my id card.

[Timbrewolf]

Okay so then at that point...

Dingus Mcgee says, "Nope"
Bones McGee is trying to put handcuffs on Jim Otis!
Jim Otis has disarmed Bones McGee!
Ian woofs, "Woof!"
Dingus Mcgee says, "You do not have Bridge access"
[Common] Matthew Tiberium says, "Security, a lizardman wearing blue attacked me in arivles."
Bones McGee examines himself.
You place the handcuffs into the disposal unit.
[Common] Alan Herrmerrrn says, "Lizzy Ari is asaulting people"
Dingus Mcgee has thrown Jim Otis's ID Card (Scavenger Hunter).
Jim Otis has been hit by Jim Otis's ID Card (Scavenger Hunter).
You put the ID into PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter)'s slot.
[Common] Cecil Sik says, "SECURITY TO MEDBAY"
Jim Otis has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Dingus Mcgee!
Dingus Mcgee puts the telescopic baton into the captain's satchel.
The light tube melts away!
The black jumpsuit melts away!
The black shoes melts away!
PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter) melts away!

The Captain confirms you don't have access, knocks you down to the ground with his baton, and then the CMO sprays you.

[ThatSlyFox]

Again I left after I got my id probably should have given the baton back but eh hindsight 20/20.

What rule allows him to acid me for theft and trespassing?

Lets look at the security policies since he wanted to act like a officer and those are the only ones that are even related. These are all from the wiki aka the place it takes you when you click rules.

Lethal force

1.Security is to use non-lethal force first when in contact, unless there are significant risks in doing so.
2.Lethal force during contact is authorized when the security force faces a significant risk, now or later, by resorting to non-lethal means.
2.5 Significant risks may be, but are not limited to; hulks, changelings, nuclear operatives, cultists, revolutionaries, wizards or subverted and/or malfunctioning silicons.
3.Lethal force is not allowed on appropriately subdued threats, unless there are extraordinary circumstances.

No risk I see since I was already down and only equiped with his baton which was in my bag, wasn't a antag, and the third one is somewhat going against him here.

Mob-mentality / "Shitlers" / "Graytide"

1. If a mob of crew members swarms the brig, you are free to use lethal force.
2. A person that is intentionally fucking with security is to be brigged.
2.1 Should the brigging fail, he is to be permabrigged.
2.2 Should that fail, he is to be executed.
2.3 f an individual repeatedly does this, or you suspect him of doing so, you should adminhelp.
3.If a person is intentionally fucking with security is yelling "rogue sec" or something similar, adminhelp it. This can be punished with a rule 1 violation ban.

None of this even applies even though you guys are dead set on saying I was greytiding.

So he killed me and none of the rules or policies support it as "valid". I am also not entirely sure what the point of your last post anon. Just repeating what was already said. Yes he confirmed I had no access but that's not even why I wanted him to see my id. Yes he batons me but that was after I left. Yes I got killed with acid.

[Timbrewolf]

The Captain calling BS on your and whacking you with a baton establishes he also didn't want you on the bridge. That the CMO did not interrupt a casual chat you were having with the Captain to kill you.

As Inti pointed out, you disarmed and stole the CMO's only non-lethal means of trying to get you to leave, and evaded his other not-killing-you efforts as well.

If I broke into your department and ran around, disarming you and taking your only method of non-violent deterrence from you, refusing to leave, dodging your attempts to get me to leave, I guarantee you'd react the same way the CMO would. Most people would, and we usually don't bat an eye at it.

But this isn't just some department, it's the bridge, and that isn't just some guy, he's a head of staff.

Beyond all that, he personally dragged you straight over to get you cloned and apologized in character (though not directly to you) for screwing up when he didn't realize the weapon he used on you was so lethal.

You have absolutely nothing to be complaining about.

[BlessedHeretic]

Again, my complaint is not against the removal of a grey tider being dunked for being a shit, it's a non antag having a heavily overpowered chemical for no reason on his person for the intent to spray people with it, as it serves no other purpose than to do so.

The rest I consider IC issues, with sly deserving a warning.

Although if the captain has baton'd a guy and rendered him restrained, spraying him simply to kill him is pretty bad IMHO.

[tedward1337]

Just reading both sides here, this remains IC to me, however as for the polyacid, it seems that every round, non-antag chemists load spray bottles to "defend' themselves if they get attacked, CMO's here being included. I find this to be powering gaming hard. There is no reason to carry a deadly chemical as a non-antag except to try to (and almost always) succeed in killing who ever is attacking you with one spray of it. I've seen chemists make p-acid at round start, and fuck off without even trying to do anything else in chem like set up a cryo mix. This is literally on the same level as making choral as a CMO, and putting it in a syringe gun and using it too drop people because "I might have be attacked."

[Timbrewolf]

Again, my complaint is not against the removal of a grey tider being dunked for being a shit, it's a non antag having a heavily overpowered chemical for no reason on his person for the intent to spray people with it, as it serves no other purpose than to do so.

The rest I consider IC issues, with sly deserving a warning.

Although if the captain has baton'd a guy and rendered him restrained, spraying him simply to kill him is pretty bad IMHO.

Like I said plenty of people are walking around carrying deadly weapons all the time. There's no special rules or laws regarding exceptions for P Acid. By this logic we should be PM'ing every non-antag who picks up a laser, fire axe, bomb, etc. unless it's code Red or something. Nobody adminpm's the RD for wandering around strutting his fully armed Durand as a non-antag, why should we bug the CMO for having P Acid?

I think you're trying to make an exception to that here because P Acid is really popular and powerful right now, but it's bad policy either way.

Also

Although if the captain has baton'd a guy and rendered him restrained, spraying him simply to kill him is pretty bad IMHO.

If you actually read that snippet of logs, Blessed:

Bones McGee is trying to put handcuffs on Jim Otis!
You place the handcuffs into the disposal unit.
Jim Otis has been knocked down with the telescopic baton by Dingus Mcgee!
Dingus Mcgee puts the telescopic baton into the captain's satchel.
PDA-Jim Otis (Scavenger Hunter) melts away!

He wasn't restrained at all. He just threw a pair of restraints into the trash. And then complains that people jumped to killing him instead of detaining him.

-snip-

This makes sense as a CMO though. He has access to all of medbay, is in charge, and almost always has reasonable cause to think he might be attacked at some random point. He's a high priority dude, he's a head of staff. A random chemist on the other hand shouldn't.

[peoplearestrange]

Been well over a month since this was started. Considering thread resolved.

PM me if this was in error.