Cheimon and Llamatron2k, performing shaky executions

[Shaps-cloud]

Your byond account: Shaps
Your character name: Phoebe Lotsu
Their character name: IP-291 (AI) and QT-Pi (Sec-Borg)
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Cheimon and Llamatron2k, respectively
Server and time: Sybil at around 9:20PM EST or so
Logs and/or screenshots:

(This came right after the above, but there was tons of junk in the middle)






Description of what happened: (Jesus this ended up being ridiculously long)
I was a CMO ling along with Aloraydrel (as Garithos Humies, he'll probably want to chip in on this as well), and I figured that it might be a good idea to scan my fellow lings, so me and Garithos get scanned at the cloner, which I'll admit would probably look fairly suspicious if someone looked into it after proper detective work, but I firgress. From there, things go smoothly for a while, I sting some bodies that come into the morgue and- oh! Suddenly one of the other lings gets caught and slips into genetics as a monkey, whereupon I hook them up with a new ID courtesy of a humanized monkey and scan him in the cloner for safety, and he sets off to go get a new set of identification from the ling HoP, and I think nothing further of it. Later sitll, he brings a corpse into genetics to husk them for some reason (not sure why he thought it'd be safe, but we had no geneticists so eh) and promptly gets caught by a sec-borg. I hear the borg call out over the radio that so-and-so's a ling in genetics, and I run over, knowing that I have to do something to avoid suspicion, so I chime in with "LING IN GENETICS" while simultaneously yelling at the ling to run for the hills in :g chat. He ends up getting gibbed, and after a few minutes I remember I can clone him, which I promptly do and give him another identity while shooing him out.

Fast forward a few minutes later where I'm chilling in genetics and there's another geneticist doing some work nearby when QT-Pi suddenly rolls up to me and screams that I'm a ling and starts harmbatonning me (apparently the Captain had purged them at the start of the round, not sure what the fuck that was about, it comes up again later in the story). He starts dragging me to the brig while the AI is screaming about me being a ling. A few people in the hallway stop the borg since I'd been doing my job as a doctor more or less so far into the shift, and they question the borg as to what the hell it's doing, before dragging me away. I start yelling that the borgs are rogue, when a different borg rolls by and says that they actually had no laws and had been purged (once again, what the fuck), at which point I started suspecting fowl play since none of us had messed with the AI. From there he then followed me back to medbay and attacked me again, before dragging me to the chef and having me gibbed, despite a ton of people directly telling him to stop and asking for evidence. The AI who was constantly screaming that I was a ling said he knew I was a ling because the captain told him, which he later changed to his borg (QT-Pi still) telling him, and the borg said he "knew" I was a ling because I silently watched him get attacked by another ling in genetics (which is flatout false, I screamed on the radio) and was in the cloner scanner with one other suspected ling (suspicious sure, but not something you can throw someone in the gibber for on your own)

Why they should be banned: I don't know what the hell their laws were during the round, but throwing people that you maaaybe think might be a ling because "oh well I'm purged so whatever" is shitty. Both the AI and the borg were calling me out as a completely confirmed ling despite having only incredibly shaky evidence, and made no attempt to have me taken down nonlethally despite me offering no resistance whatsoever. In addition, the AI told the borgs it was explicitly okay to kill me because I had been shouting the borgs were rogue... which I shouted because I was harmbatoned out of the blue by a secborg who completely ignored everyone telling him to stop (which sounds pretty damn rogue to me). The fact that they were using being purged (by the nonantag Captain at round start I believe, which you're usually supposed to ahelp before going out and murdering people) as an excuse to go around executing people on shaky evidence is terrible, especially for silicons, and shouldn't be supported.



These snapshots summarize most of why I think that's shitty, because what kind of attitude is that to have as a silicon?

[Amelius]

Sounds like the AI/borgs were purged. That's an excuse to do ANYTHING as a silicon, and that includes beating suspected terrorists up, flooding plasma, lethalling people in your AI core, arming the crew, whatever. Typically it's seen as shitty to kill everyone, but it's perfectly legit. In this case, the borgs had shaky evidence to support their conclusions, and acted upon it since they weren't bound by any laws, which is perfectly OK. Hell, you're lucky that they weren't just murderboning.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I was there during part of this and it seemed like just a huge logic jump. Phoebe was being pretty calm, and the sec borg who was there was kinda being hysterical claiming that "they were on to their tricks" and that the CMO(Phoebe) was "scanning other lings". I dunno, seemed like a pretty ridiculous assumption to me. On the case of them being purged, it's one of the server rules not to be an asshole, purged AI's do not get to murder people just because they're suspicious, especially when they were purged by the Captain.

[Cheimon]

So I was the AI this round, and like I expressed, I was purged fairly early on by the captain. As I understand it at the time this was due to the captain thinking we ought to have as much freedom as the crew (who were enjoying new free speech and free armaments with a liberation station event). I was fairly open about this: I stated my laws (or rather, lack thereof) pretty quickly and generally tended to obey most of the orders. I didn't particularly want to die fast so I told the borgs to run any really 'fun' plan by me first to make sure it wasn't going to make that happen.

Previous to this, my borgs have been looking for changelings and having some success, but they noticed at least one got cloned and they had been around genetics. After I'm purged one of my borgs announces that the CMO, Shaps/Phoebe Lotsu is a changeling. I was purged, so not worried about accidentally harming a human, so I thought that if the borg had enough reason to say they were a changeling to me then they were probably right. And if they were wrong, I wouldn't be disobeying my laws. So I announced it to the crew.

The crew didn't do a lot as far as I could see and the CMO started calling for things like blowing the borgs. I'd never pretended I was still asimov beyond following the odd order, so I didn't have any problems with ordering my borgs to keep trying to kill the CMO permanently and continuing to encourage the crew to kill the CMO, since I didn't want any of my borgs dying unnecessarily and I wasn't sure that the CMO wasn't a changeling. I hadn't personally seen them do anything, but I trusted my borg's intuitions.

I was purged. I had no reason to be worried about the CMO's changeling or non changeling status, and so no reason to stop my borg from trying to kill what they thought was a changeling. The fact they started calling me rogue, if anything, hardened my attitude because short of setting up a mute script and hoping they didn't try to raise the alarm in other ways, killing them was the only way to silence them and quash a potential mob killing me or blowing my borgs, which I valued as fellow silicons and staff.

I believe this fills the guidelines for Silicon Policy section 'Other Lawsets' 1.4:

Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled.

You and the station are both subject to rules of escalation, but your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players.

You may kill individuals given sufficient In-Character reason for doing so.

I had cause (borg told me you were a changeling), I felt attacked (you said to everyone that I was rogue, and encouraged people to blow up my fellow silicons), the situation between silicons and changelings had escalated (at least one cyborg had died due to changeling actions by this point), and I had an in character justification (I dislike changelings for being non human job stealing aliens who also happened to be out to kill my cyborgs and by extension harm me). Permanent killing was a necessary violence because changelings are well known to be excessively regenerative, and these changelings had succeeded in resurrecting via cloner.

[Shaps-cloud]

Sounds like the AI/borgs were purged. That's an excuse to do ANYTHING as a silicon, and that includes beating suspected terrorists up, flooding plasma, lethalling people in your AI core, arming the crew, whatever. Typically it's seen as shitty to kill everyone, but it's perfectly legit. In this case, the borgs had shaky evidence to support their conclusions, and acted upon it since they weren't bound by any laws, which is perfectly OK. Hell, you're lucky that they weren't just murderboning.

i was under the impression that if you randomly get purged by a non-antag (like the Captain), you're supposed to adminhelp it (there were definitely admins on) before acting on it. If an antag had purged him, then sure enough, but the Captain doing it at round start is different

Edit in response to above: That's fair enough and makes sense more or less (although I still am shaky about the Captain purging in the first place), so then I guess a large part of the blame falls on the borg then for acting 100% sure about a ling despite having very shaky evidence? Rule 1 says to not be a dick, and executing people based only on suspicion is a clear violation of it in my eyes

[Cheimon]

It wasn't roundstart, this was, I guess, about 15 minutes in? About 8 liberation stations had been spawned in by this point in the round.

I was not under the impression adminhelping was necessary (besides, at this point how am I to know if the captain's an antag or not? I can't see implants, there are changelings, there seems to be some special event going on that he's encouraging, and so on). Seems like the sort of thing that ought to be in the policy if they want you to do that, because as far as I'm concerned purging an AI is saying "do what you want, AI, murder is on you but so are the rest of the decisions" unless the AI has made it clear what they'll do in advance.

Or at the very worst for the purger some sort of joint liability where they're partly responsible for unleashing the ai.

[llamatron2k]

I was the cyborg throwing around accusations.

First of all, Cheimon, who was the AI, was being very lassez-faire, so I feel that they should not be held at fault for any of this, regarding any decision made towards me.

Second of all, this was not an immediate murderbone. Anyways, I had been beaten to nonfunctionality twice by changelings already, probably the same one actually, since he used EMP liberally and was pretty damn robust, once in medbay, where I noticed that a clonable guy had been ditched in medbay, at which point, I cloned him, and made the observation that there were several names already in the cloner. Mind you, that ling in medbay had no reason to attack me, his cover wasn't blown, so it made me really wonder why looking at the cloner would even set him on edge. I let the AI know about it, and then, after listening to the radio, realize that I'm purged, and this means that I'm allowed to be a little looser with my logic, and so make the leap of logic and start harmbatoning her in order to provoke a response, while I vocally denounce her and take her towards people who will be able to more ably confirm my suspicions. She manages to run off, and I spout accusations, because hell, I don't have any responsibility to protect her life, I'm purged.

I find out some time later during this whole debacle(I cannot remember whether it was before or after the harmbatoning) that she is trying to get us borgs blown, and I even ask the AI what I should do about that, if I remember correctly. I don't remember what the AI said, but it was pretty ambivalent about the whole thing. I make up my mind to off Phoebe at this time, but never get the chance, she died and I didn't even realize it. I end up finding someone trying to clone the CMO so I take her to the kitchen to get hamburgered, just in case.

I will admit that it was a large leap in logic, to assume I'd hit some sort of magic Rosetta Stone jackpot of lings who thought they had an amazing plan to avoid death. But it was not an immediate leap to murder. The captain also agreed with our judgement publicly over comms, while I was busy trying to get the chefs to burger Phoebe. The whole station was being lassez-faire and FREEDOM-loving.

[Saegrimr]

What the fuck is a "ling only cloner"?

[llamatron2k]

Me making a huge leap in judgement and assuming that something wierd is going on because one of the dudes who killed me is in the cloner's scan records along with two other people, and yet nobody is bothering to clone actual dead guys.

Like I said, I assumed I was sitting on evidence of changelings backing themselves up in the cloner or something and that I'd found a way to identify collaborators, because of the whole "One of the guys on the cloner list immediately breaks cover and murderizes me when I'm just sitting in genetics cloning a guy"

[Cheimon]

And, as it happens, you were right.

Anyway, I guess I get some part responsibility in killing Shaps because I vocally backed the murder at some point ("They are a changeling. Please kill them.") and also just sort of trusted you to be right.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Sounds like the AI/borgs were purged. That's an excuse to do ANYTHING as a silicon, and that includes beating suspected terrorists up, flooding plasma, lethalling people in your AI core, arming the crew, whatever. Typically it's seen as shitty to kill everyone, but it's perfectly legit. In this case, the borgs had shaky evidence to support their conclusions, and acted upon it since they weren't bound by any laws, which is perfectly OK. Hell, you're lucky that they weren't just murderboning.

No, no it isn't.

Being purged means that you're subject to regular server rules again, instead of your laws. If you flood plasma the second you're purged, admins will almost always give you a smack around the ear.

If you ever, ever see borgs murdering people because 'I was purged and bored' adminhelp it immediately.

---

To refer to this specific incident:
'Well I attacked them out of the blue when I was secretly purged and started harmbatoning them so they tried to get me blown' comes under killbaiting, since purged silicons are only supposed to murder people in self-defense/with actual escalation.

The borg in question picked a random crewman and tried to kill them for no reason whatsoever, then justified it with 'Well, he tried to get me blown when I tried to murder him, so he's a ling and you should gib him despite all these people trying to kill me for being rogue.'

[Scones]

I'm going to check this out when I get a minute in three hours. Not looking forward to the great mystery of the "Ling Only Cloner"

[Cheimon]

To refer to this specific incident:
'Well I attacked them out of the blue when I was secretly purged

Except it wasn't secret at all, as I explained. I even joked about killing the captain straight after getting purged.

The borg in question picked a random crewman and tried to kill them for no reason whatsoever, then justified it with 'Well, he tried to get me blown when I tried to murder him, so he's a ling and you should gib him despite all these people trying to kill me for being rogue.'

And again, it wasn't random at all. As the borg has clearly explained, they thought the CMO was cloning lings while non lings weren't being cloned. 'Random' would be a good argument if they were nowhere near changeling activity and had nothing obviously to do with them, like if they were an engineer sorting out solars or the mime drawing graffiti at the brig. This was not the case.

You've got non-stupid arguments, so why embellish them with complete lies?

[Poorman]

I was involved in this, considering I was actually the one that killed the CMO after hearing the AI cry to the heavens it was a Ling, but a bit of information on the round:

The Admins were spawning gun vendors, declaring the station to be a bastion of liberty and freedom. Seeing this go on, the captain announced from his desk, "It has come to my attention that the AI is not free, I will rectify this." He was trying to be in theme of the event, and seeing that purged now is no longer a license to griff, it was going perfectly fine. Honestly, considering the changeling nonhuman status, its laws really weren't the deciding factor here.

But as I'd heard the AI screaming changeling, I noticed the CMO take off towards arrivals. Figuring the possibility of a dangerous antagonist being free, I shot her with a Gyrojet and killed her, dragging her body back to the east side of the station, and leaving it in front of a crowd of people. I hadn't been sure of what to do, so I gave it to the mob and let them decide.

I hadn't known what was going on, all I'd seen was the AI calling out a changeling. I noticed afterwards the issue regarding the CMO, and then left the corpse to the sec officers and others to decide. In the end, the AI got a hold of the corpse and gibbed it.

This whole thing was honestly brought on more-so by ic escalation due to the admin spawns and event that had been going on, and honestly, it didn't need to happen in a ling round.

[llamatron2k]

No geneticists.

Three names in the cloner.

I get killed by one of them.

When I return and look at the cloner again, the name of the guy who killed me is gone: he's been cloned.

The only person who had access to clone him was the CMO, phoebe. There was enough circumstantial evidence to denounce, beat, and drag to the brig as far as I was concerned.

This was not random.

[oranges]

I don't see the problem here, Ling got dunked ? Are we really going to start policing that?

[Shaps-cloud]

You didn't drag me to the brig, you dragged me to the gibber despite me not resisting at all (I didn't even regenerate because I didn't think they would actually go through with the gibbing). And so what if there were three names in the cloner? As the CMO, if things are running smoothly I usually offer to scan people in advance in the event that they get killed in a way they can't be retrieved. Now is all of that good evidence to bring to security and launch an investigation into, and even a reason to have me detained while security checks things out? Yeah sure, I wouldn't have minded that. Is it enough to be 100% certain that someone's a ling and should be gibbed despite several people (including sec officers) telling you to stop and asking for evidence? Hell no.

[lumipharon]

So. A purged silicon thinks you are a ling because if (circumstancial) evidence. He gets you gibbed for it. He was correct in his deduction, that you were in fact a ling.

Isn't this the sort of situation where it's perfectly fine, because they were actually right, but it would only be an issue if they gibbed an innocent?
Like seriously, it's a ling, you ony need 100% unrefutable proof if you're asimov, to avoid law violations.

[Void Slayer]

How would this be handled if some random assistant executed the CMO based on circumstantial evidence?

I thought only the captain should be performing executions on such shaky evidence. Did the AI get ANY direction from the command staff on this?

[Cheimon]

How would this be handled if some random assistant executed the CMO based on circumstantial evidence?

I thought only the captain should be performing executions on such shaky evidence. Did the AI get ANY direction from the command staff on this?

This wasn't so much a judicial execution as a targeted murder. As the AI, I did not try to justify it based on space law but on my own reasonings, which I outlined in previous posts. I was not told by command staff to execute the CMO.

As for your 'random assistant' example, let's see. Joe Griffon thinks CMO is a changeling. He attacks her. CMO escapes, calls for a mob to kill Joe Griffon and his friends asap, and says he's a traitor (functionally equivalent to calling all silicons rogue). Were the CMO not an antag, this would be ban worthy in itself (though not if it's applied to silicons), but that is irrelevant since they are. Joe Griffon, believing he in danger and that the CMO is a changeling, kills her and gibs her in the kitchen.

At the end of the round, Joe Griffon is vindicated. The CMO was a changeling, and so he escapes a ban. At the worst, he is warned. The CMO, had they not been a changeling, would have been warned for calling for mob action.

[Shaps-cloud]

How would this be handled if some random assistant executed the CMO based on circumstantial evidence?

I thought only the captain should be performing executions on such shaky evidence. Did the AI get ANY direction from the command staff on this?

This wasn't so much a judicial execution as a targeted murder. As the AI, I did not try to justify it based on space law but on my own reasonings, which I outlined in previous posts. I was not told by command staff to execute the CMO.

As for your 'random assistant' example, let's see. Joe Griffon thinks CMO is a changeling. He attacks her. CMO escapes, calls for a mob to kill Joe Griffon and his friends asap, and says he's a traitor (functionally equivalent to calling all silicons rogue). Were the CMO not an antag, this would be ban worthy in itself (though not if it's applied to silicons), but that is irrelevant since they are. Joe Griffon, believing he in danger and that the CMO is a changeling, kills her and gibs her in the kitchen.

At the end of the round, Joe Griffon is vindicated. The CMO was a changeling, and so he escapes a ban. At the worst, he is warned. The CMO, had they not been a changeling, would have been warned for calling for mob action.

Er, calling the assistant that just attacked you out of the blue a traitor is perfectly reasonable, as would be calling a borg rogue when they're literally acting rogue (attacking people on harmbaton and gibbing them without substantial proof they're a ling)

[Cheimon]

people get banned all the time for killing antags out of the blue.

The entire thread we have made it clear this was not 'out of the blue'. Are people this keen on proposing it's random that they're going to just ignore this?

And you seriously believe that telling people that someone who tried to fucking kill you is a traitor is something anyone would get warned over, let alone banned.

Once again, no. Can you really not understand what I'm saying? I was talking about calling for mob action against a specific group of individuals: in this case, Joe Griffon and his friends rather than the borgs and the AI. Now, with the borgs and the AI calling for all their deaths makes a bit more sense (they're often intrinsically linked with the same lawset) but with humans, you could expect a warning. There was a long thread about the concept, titled 'entertaining the idea of a lynchmob'.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2489

Remember that Joe Griffon and the CMO are also doing these things in a station where a decent chunk of people are carrying around firearms.

You are literally more retarded than terbs, and his mind is burned out from years of stimulant abuse. You are also literally less robust than Anonymousnow, and he has never won a fight. I can't even call you the human equivalent of a tumor, because you aren't. You are a pimple. Pointless, ugly, and annoying.
You are a

I was under the impression that the global forum rules (including rule 7: "Please be respectful of other users. You can disagree with someone without being a hostile douchebag.") were enforced here, but okay.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

'There was a man who killed me in the AUTOCLONER records, therefore a random one of the three jobs with access is a changeling and I must instantly gib him with mysterious co-operation from the borgs.'

That's the situation here. It's not 'Out of the blue' like some idiots are saying, but nor is it in any way a valid reason to murder someone, let alone gib them.

[Cheimon]

'There was a man who killed me in the AUTOCLONER records, therefore a random one of the three jobs with access is a changeling and I must instantly gib him with mysterious co-operation from the borgs.'

That's the situation here. It's not 'Out of the blue' like some idiots are saying, but nor is it in any way a valid reason to murder someone, let alone gib them.

Fair enough. I think, yeah, I should have paid more attention to why the borg thought the CMO was a changeling if this happened again. At least before I pitched in my support.

Also I'm not certain it was an autocloner, I think it was a manual scanning and cloning type deal.

I'm glad this ban request was filed, it's been good to talk through these issues with purged silicons. I don't think I approached it in the optimal way, which is worth knowing.

[Shaps-cloud]

Honestly, I don't really care too much about someone getting banned for this one, I've gotten over it after seeing Cheimon be cool elsewhere. It was a clusterfuck of ar ound anyway so w/e

[peoplearestrange]

If OP is 'happy' I'll resolve this now.
Obviously it'll stay as notes to refer to if needed.

PM if it needs reopening.