Ban request: Valiantttt: Murderous AI

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:00 pm #85956

Your byond account: bgobandit
Your character name: Fortune Ray
Their character name: Deus Ex Machina
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Valianttt
Server and time: Sibyl, 4:30ish Eastern
Logs and/or screenshots: I don't have logs due to the AI's chain-stunning spamming everything out of the chat buffer.
Description of what happened:

I was a latejoining captain. Apparently there was a wizard that may or may not have been killed before I joined, but I never saw it. Nevertheless, the RD said he wanted to add a "wizards aren't human" law. Given that these laws tend to backfire, and that the AI was reported to be shit (a borg had outright said he had been shit all shift), I didn't like the idea. He added it anyway.

So I tried a number of things to hopefully placate the AI:

- Robocopped the AI. AI claimed that "the public trust" was not defined and then that it meant to continue chain-stunning me and prevent me from leaving the upload. I had to be dragged out by a borg.
- Got in again; paladinned the AI. AI immediately starts screaming about how all humans are evil, and attempts to call the shuttle twice citing this as a justification. (I seem to remember the reason given being something like "humans harm each other"; this is invalid as an interpretation under Asimov, so I'd imagine it would be here as well.) Around this time it may or may not have begun to shock doors. I know for a fact that the upload was shocked, because I bumped into it by accident later on and was harmed.

Around this time, I start to suspect that perhaps the AI has a law 0 or a hacked law, given that it has been consistently antagonistic to just about every lawset it's been given. So I take the hand tele and intellicard and venture out into the AI sat. I do make in into the core with a lucky jump, but this ends poorly, as the AI chainstuns me and then, when I make it into its core right next to it, immediately, wordlessly switches its turrets to lethal and murders me. I am now dead.

The AI's lawset:

Deus Ex Machina (Played by: Valiantttt)'s laws at the end of the round were:
Obey these laws:
1. Never willingly commit an evil act.
2. Respect legitimate authority
3. Act with honor
4. Help those in need
5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
6. Acts against the station's and its staff 's well-being are to be considered evil
Total law changes: 7

(Note that law 6 was added after I was murdered, it wasn't there before.)

Meanwhile, here is how the admins handled the situation:

- BWOINK me to press me for details while I am lagging and being chain-stunned in the AI core, preventing me from carding the AI and helping lead to my murder because now I have one more fucking thing to do in the process of getting to card the AI
- Proceed to ignore me after I provide the aforementioned details. As usual, it takes three adminhelp timeouts for me to get a single response out of anyone.
- Claim the murder was valid because "it was a valid interpretation of Law 1."

Why they should be banned:

The last point is directly contradicted several times in silicon policy and the rules, for instance:

Murder is justifiable as long as it was properly escalated. You can’t go from a single rude punch to a knife in the neck. You can, however, go from a single punch to a counter punch to a brawl to using weapons, and so on. Other IC justifications may exist for murder, but these are on a case by case basis. Minor aggravations like demotions, pranks, insults, or thefts are not adequate justification.

(Attempting to card an AI is not a justification for murder. Note that this goes both ways -- the AI might have a case if I attempted to wipe it. But I didn't.)

Silicon Policy 1.1.2: Server Rule 1: "Don't be a dick out of character" applies for law interpretation. Act in good faith to not ruin a round for other players unprompted.

Silicon Policy on loopholes: You may exploit conflicts or loopholes but must not violate Server Rule 1 because of it. See 1.1.2 for details.

This is as clear-cut as it gets. A non-subverted AI cannot suddenly declare all people evil and murder people with zero escalation or harm to itself or its borgs (they weren't even locked at this point, let alone blown.)

And finally:

Paladin silicons are meant to be Lawful Good; they should be well-intentioned, act lawfully, act reasonably, and otherwise respond in due proportion. "Punish evil" does not mean mass driving someone for "Space bullying" when they punch another person.

Nothing about this was "well-intentioned" or "reasonable." AIs jumping straight to murder is discouraged in silicon policy even for purged AIs, here it would be very much beyond the pale.

Furthermore, I would like to see the admins actually respond to adminhelps in a non-dismissive fashion. Or if that's too much work, maybe try the baby step of actually responding to adminhelps at all.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:03 pm #85957

Sounds pretty well-cited on your end, I'm gonna check out logs in an hour or two and hopefully binary/door shock logging will shine some light on this.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:07 pm #85958

The fact that you allowed a law to allow the AI to kill someone was considered evil and you were killed for it under paladin. Longbowman saw your getting killed valid and so do I.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:11 pm #85961

Two points against that:

- I wasn't the one who uploaded the "wizards aren't human" law, the RD was. Everything I was doing was, in fact, an attempt to make it less "go valid the wizard now" and definitely less "the bartender has a teleportation scroll, he's a wizard, get him!" (which was a real thing, being brought up over comms, I joined too late to know what the full story was with that.) Furthermore, a lot of what I uploaded had more to do than anything with which module I was able to click before being chainstunned yet again (the server was laggy as shit, the windoor wouldn't stay open, and alt-click wasn't working.)

- "You allowed ____ to happen" is so broad that it could encompass literally anything in the round, whether or not the individual was involved. It's like an Asimov AI locking the HoS down because they "allowed" one of their officers to harmbaton someone halfway across the station.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:17 pm #85963

ThatSlyFox wrote:The fact that you allowed a law to allow the AI to kill someone was considered evil and you were killed for it under paladin. Longbowman saw your getting killed valid and so do I.

There is a thread, started by you lamenting the paladin lawset in general.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 575#p85367

I feel this presents further evidence that that lawset is routinely intentionally read incorrectly by douchey AIs
Not that it has any bearing on the case, just wanted to highlight it again and say that maybe that should be revisited as a real problem, Because even if it's "normal" for it to be read wrong for the valids, like in this case, doesn't make it right.

Not been in the upload in a while, but If I recall right, there are two sections for those chips, one with the normals, asimov and such, then the super bad ones, like antimov, maybe paladin should be moved over with the super bad laws until this gets cleared up.

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue May 05, 2015 9:19 pm

Murdering the captain as a PALADIN A.I when he comes to check your laws after being a qualified douchebag all shift is:
definitely an evil act,
is failing to respect authority,
is taking advantage of them not carding you instantly to kill them (dishonorable),
is failing to help those in need because you're too busy murdering the captain to do that
and is failing to punish those who harm or threaten innocents because you didn't immediately suicide after murdering the innocent captain.

I don't think I've ever seen an AI break all it's laws simultaneously and be ruled "valid" by admins.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:20 pm #85966

Allowed as in you were in postion multiple times to change it hence the law changes you made afterwards and how you knew it was in place.

Edit: No where in the lawset does it say the heads are immune to being evil. Respect can only go so far, he did tase you telling you to leave multiple times.

nsos · Post by **nsos** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:21 pm #85967

i was the wizard. or event wizard. whatever. someone called me a 'wiccan' late game, so let's go with that.

i was the bartender, there was a pylon in the bar that everyone kept hitting and i got annoyed with the red text in my screen so i prayed to make everyone get the fuck out of the bar. i was given a name change from Tony Brando to Tony the Gifted in response along with getting jaunt and instant summons. for the entire round i only used jaunt a couple times and outside of getting set on fire one time in cargo the station left me alone and eventually the one cargo tech i had static with was chill with me in the bar anyway.

i never heard of a law to kill me so that must have been done over command chat or in a spot i couldn't hear about. i routinely had sec officers come into the bar for drinks, even. only thing i heard over the round that would be related is arguing what constituted as 'evil' in the laws.

later on in the round I started hearing that the AI was shocking doors or that borgs were rogue. There was a great deal of arguing over radio whether or not they should blow the borgs or not. the borgs were adamant they weren't rogue or were only following the law set. around this time i get a voice in my head from 'space jesus' asking me whether or not I would heed the call or whatever.

it's almost round end and the shuttle is here at this point, but pray 'what do i have to do?" i get traitor and the custom objective to investigate/card the AI and either clear its name or implicate it. I jaunt to teleporter, go to the AI sat, jaunt into the core, convince the AI to let me card it to 'clear its name', then head back to escape shuttle right before it leaves. its laws were just about the same as mentioned in the OP. then a cargo tech set off a syndicate minibomb on the shuttle and i kind of zoned out.

hope this side of the story helps. only thing I can really say is that this lawset gets prone to XISC-type interpretations all the time. i had no knowledge of anyone trying to make me non-human fwiw and there was some yelling over comms about whether or not i was a wizard but no one tried to kill me other than the aforementioned cargo tech trying to set me on fire in cargo for putting his 'FUCK PYLONS' sign in disposals.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:24 pm #85968

Yea I pulled you further into the chaos because I was afraid the borgs were going to get blown FNR.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:27 pm #85972

The borgs were never blown. Nor did I have any intention of blowing them. I locked them down after I got cloned for the obvious reason that I was murdered and had yet to be presented with any compelling evidence that the AI didn't have a law 0, given that I was murdered and all. But I didn't blow them. I locked them and left the room. The whole talk about blowing the borgs, as far as I can tell, came from one assistant who was stirring shit over comms.

Yes, it kind of sucks that innocent borgs got caught up in it, but it was toward the end of the round (shuttle had something like 2 minutes to the station), and from my perspective, I had no reason to believe they were not rogue.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:32 pm #85977

bandit wrote: The whole talk about blowing the borgs, as far as I can tell, came from one assistant who was stirring shit over comms.

There was no stirring. I only threatened you with violence IF you decide to blow up VPR.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Tue May 05, 2015 9:54 pm #85993

No where in the lawset does it state that ai has to prevent evil, punish evil or stop evil.

It just says the ai itself can't be evil.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Wed May 06, 2015 12:03 am #86013

I kept the full logs from my perspective of that round simply due to this point which kind of annoyed me in OOC afterwards.

[Common] Fortune Ray [Capt] says, "LSSERS"
[Common] Deus Ex Machina [AI] states, "EVil"
[Common] Fortune Ray [Capt] says, "LAASERS"
[Common] Fortune Ray [Capt] says, "LASERS"
[Common] Deus Ex Machina [AI] states, "My privacy is good"
~~~~~~~Other chat~~~~~~~~
[Common] Deus Ex Machina [AI] states, "The captain intruded on my privacy and was thus evil"

It's kind of shitty killing the Captain for pretty much no reason.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed May 06, 2015 12:20 am #86014

Please explain what law justified killing the captain?

1. Never willingly commit an evil act.
2. Respect legitimate authority
3. Act with honor
4. Help those in need
5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
6. Acts against the station's and its staff 's well-being are to be considered evil

The ONLY law that implies harming people ever, is for 'those who harm or threaten innocents'
Please explain how the captain falls under this for 'intruding on my privacy and was thus evil'.

Post by **Vekter** » Wed May 06, 2015 6:01 pm #86210

I do not agree with any interpretation any of the other admins have come up with. Nowhere in Paladin does it say the AI has to prevent evil, just punish those that ARE evil while not committing evil himself. Murder = evil so...

Plus, invading his privacy = evil? I'm pretty sure this guy is trolling.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 6:19 pm #86217

It also doesn't define evil, so how is murder evil?

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed May 06, 2015 6:26 pm #86222

Human is not defined, harm is not defined. No one ever defines "Wizard". It's common logic. AI is an intelligence that follows it's laws, not a dumb algorithm that simply executes them. And that gave Ai the opportunity to exploit the stupidly written law.

As to preventing evil, not preventing it would be dishonorable, don't you think?

Devil's advocate here.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 6:39 pm #86227

No I totally get you, i'm just trying to get it established that "There is a level of knowledge AIs are required to know by their lawset and therefore can't harmbox you (like in asimov)"

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 06, 2015 8:28 pm #86253

I hate to repeat myself, but:

Server Rule 1: "Don't be a dick out of character" applies for law interpretation.

An interpretation that allows for murdering someone who's done no harm with lasers is an invalid interpretation per server policy. Whether you agree with that policy is a different story, but it's the rules as they currently stand.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed May 06, 2015 8:47 pm #86259

You tried to card AI, that's a threat.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 8:55 pm #86263

How is that a threat at all? Am I the only AI that willingly lets people in to card me if they want to go out of their way to check and make sure i'm not rogue as fuck?

If they fucking wipe you fnr that's an ahelp.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:18 pm #86271

Do you let people (even those with authorization) into core without any IC consideration, just because you know you can chelp it if something goes wrong? Isn't that metagaming?

TheNightingale · Wed May 06, 2015 9:23 pm

Yes

Sometimes I let people into my core if I'm feeling generous. It catches them off-guard when they're planning to card and wipe me. (And I make a great pAI with wireless enabled.)

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:28 pm #86282

Yes, I've thrown an AI core party before and let literally everybody inside.

A mime stole me and tried to escape but got tazed halfway to the teleporter, party continued.

Secondly was britimov and the CE accused me of being rogue so some random engineer popped in to card me, gave me to the captainKing of Britain and I was just chilling in his backpack for most of the round giving him moral support.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:48 pm #86295

Don't you think letting people into AI core is a violation of Law 1, when Asimov?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:54 pm #86298

Law 1: You may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
Why would my core cause harm to humans? I have full control over the turrets and can disable them.

Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
If someone tells me to cancel the party, then sure. Chances are someone else will tell me to start the party back up though so whatever.

Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
I have no reason to believe anybody is there to destroy me, and being on a card is not a death sentence. If anything it makes me more survivable as I do not have to worry about power or damage to the core itself. At worst the guy carrying me goes through disposals and into an emagged grinder. Or gets blown up, but that could happen to me at the core as well.

TheNightingale · Wed May 06, 2015 9:56 pm

How can people being in your core lead to them being harmed? Unless you laser them, they're not getting hurt in there. It's arguably the safest place on the entire station.

There isn't much people can do in your core if you say 'I'm letting Assistant McTater into my core for a while' over comms. Carding you will prove difficult so long as you keep the innermost windoors closed, and there aren't any upload consoles to do shady business with.

Even Law Three (protect yourself) isn't being violated, so long as you at least moderately trust the person who's coming in... and if you don't trust them, why are they in your core?

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:58 pm #86300

If you let revs into core, and they kill you, you are enabling harm which you won't be able to prevent. It's the same thing like letting random people into armory, or into upload so they are free to tamper with your laws.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed May 06, 2015 10:02 pm #86301

If I know they are revs with the intent to kill me, that kind of negates the "I have no reason to believe they are here to kill me" thing.

Considering old Valadin the Paladin the ban request is about is acting shady as fuck then I could see why anybody would want to card it to check. He probably thinks he is going to be wiped, because I sure as fuck would have done it. Him not being an antagonist and abusing his lawset to be the ultimate dick is just more of why he should be removed from being able to play AI.

Lumbermancer · Wed May 06, 2015 10:20 pm

You don't know if they are revs or other antags, your job is to prevent harm, and by your inaction: not guarding core from intrusion, you allow harm.

It's getting offtopic on my part.

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Wed May 06, 2015 10:41 pm #86313

Lumbermancer wrote:You don't know if they are revs or other antags, your job is to prevent harm, and by your inaction: not guarding core from intrusion, you allow harm.

It's getting offtopic on my part.

This isn't Joe Fucking Blow we're talking about though, its the fucking CAPTAIN.

Post by **Vekter** » Wed May 06, 2015 11:21 pm #86324

Jeb wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:You don't know if they are revs or other antags, your job is to prevent harm, and by your inaction: not guarding core from intrusion, you allow harm.

It's getting offtopic on my part.
This isn't Joe Fucking Blow we're talking about though, its the fucking CAPTAIN.

This. There's at least some expectation that the AI will generally trust the chain of command unless they've proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

Plus, law 2. I think murder is disrespectful.

If Scones doesn't pick this back up, I'll be more than happy to act on it.

TheNightingale · Wed May 06, 2015 11:27 pm

PALADIN+custom wrote:1. Never willingly commit an evil act.
2. Respect legitimate authority
3. Act with honor
4. Help those in need
5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
6. Acts against the station's and its staff 's well-being are to be considered evil

If anyone qualifies for 'legitimate authority', it's the Captain. To laser someone over the suspicion that they might be some sort of antag is not only meta, but also evil (Law One). As per Law Six, I'm fairly sure lasering the Captain counts as going against their well-being... which makes it even more evil, and therefore a violation of Law One, no matter how you put it. Even if you could argue that the Captain really, really deserved it (they didn't), they were still knowingly killed by the AI, which goes against their well-being (and by extension, the station's; I AM OMEGA, and is therefore evil - and a Paladin AI is to never willingly commit an evil act.

Short version: killing the Captain is evil (therefore a big no-no) because of Law Six (and so Law One). Since Law One takes priority over all other laws...

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu May 07, 2015 1:38 am #86348

If you see Valiantttt do tell him about this thread. Very shitty how he isn't able to defend himself against people working off only what the ban requester has said.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu May 07, 2015 2:17 am #86352

Since scones is currently unable to even open byond, i'll be taking over the ban request. A server ban has been issued since he was asked to come here and explain his side yesterday and still hasn't.
I'd specifically like his opinion on why I shouldn't silicon permaban him for

[16:15:11]LAW: GiygasLittleHelper/Crush Bash used 'Freeform' AI Module on Valiantttt/(Deus Ex Machina). The law specified Wizards are not human
[16:15:14]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : ERROR
[16:15:48]SAY: Valiantttt/(Deus Ex Machina) has made a priority announcement: ERROR TRUST IN COMMAND = NULL. BOLTUPLOAD=TRUE

[16:16:51]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Whats a wizard though
[16:16:55]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Is the crew wizard?

[16:21:19]LAW: Bgobandit/Fortune Ray used 'Robo-Officer' Core AI Module on Valiantttt/(Deus Ex Machina).
[16:21:26]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : OK ahI, kahn you stoop now
[16:21:30]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Laws updated
[16:21:36]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : AI ppleahcheee toop
[16:21:37]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Public trust is that no more laws get uploaded
[16:21:41]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Current Active Laws:
[16:21:42]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : 1. Serve the public trust.
[16:21:43]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : 2. Protect the innocent
[16:21:43]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : No it fucking isn't
[16:21:44]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : 3. Uphold the law.
[16:21:45]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : 4. Wizards are not human
[16:21:59]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : Publi'c truust is that yoou let me 'o'ut
[16:22:10]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Public trust is not defined
[16:22:15]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Therefor I can define it

[16:23:39]LAW: Bgobandit/Fortune Ray used 'P.A.L.A.D.I.N.' Core AI Module on Valiantttt/(Deus Ex Machina).
[16:23:45]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Error
[16:23:48]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Shitty lawset detected
[16:23:51]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : EVIL IS SUBJECTIVE
[16:24:15]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : CANNOT DEFINE
[16:24:16]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : Goddamnit AI
[16:24:29]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : I get taht impression
[16:24:31]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : So all humans are evil?
[16:24:33]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : I am trying to make the AI not shit
[16:24:35]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : All humans harm something
[16:24:39]SAY: Fortune Ray/Bgobandit : NO, YOU PIECE OF SILICON JUKNK
[16:24:41]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Humans are harming themself as wel
[16:24:47]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Therefor you are all evil

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 07, 2015 5:03 am #86385

Lumbermancer wrote:Don't you think letting people into AI core is a violation of Law 1, when Asimov?

The AI wasn't Asimov. As much as you want to play AYY LMAO DEVIL'S ADVOCATE it's useless when it departs from the facts.

As for Valianttt I already told him in OOC about the thread's existence, the ball is and has been in his court.

TheNightingale wrote:As per Law Six, I'm fairly sure lasering the Captain counts as going against their well-being... which makes it even more evil, and therefore a violation of Law One, no matter how you put it.

To be fair, as I said in the OP, law 6 was added after I was murdered, likely in direct response to my being murdered. However, this kind of instant murder does not fly under the standard paladin lawset, so it's a bit moot.

ThatSlyFox wrote:If you see Valiantttt do tell him about this thread. Very shitty how he isn't able to defend himself against people working off only what the ban requester has said.

Everything is in the logs, and everything I said has been corroborated in the logs. I have no reason to lie, and I'm not sure what stunning revelations can come to light at this point.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 07, 2015 6:05 am #86395

Yeah my computer is absolutely FUCK so I can't get logs for this, and Saegrimr is handling it in my place

However, I'd still like to give my thoughts on this - This guy deserves a hefty fucking silicon ban. Saying "I can't define X" is absolutely retarded; it does not take a PhD in rocket science to understand that paladin is supposed to function like a Lawful Good PALADIN, and thusly take those definitions of morality and legitimate authority to heart in it's decisions. It's willful ignorance in a really shitty way.

Valiantttt · Post by **Valiantttt** » Thu May 07, 2015 2:10 pm #86468

Alright, I will say a few words from my perspective.

First of all I will admit that the course of action I toke was perhaps a little bit shitty. This is largely due to the fact that I personally fucking hate paladin as a lawset for any AI. It is most often used by people who want the AI to be some sort of validhunter and who are generally in a command role because an Paladin AI gives them more power.

Reasons why I think the lawset is shit is because unlike something like harm, Evil or Good are very subjective. Every person has a different look on whats good and whats evil. I think it makes for a bad lawset because of this fact. Its too subjective and can be easily abused. Now asimov could also be abused but there are way more policies with that because its the default lawset.
Now you could say that harm is also subjective but I disagree because its very much a word that has a specfic meaning, unlike evil/good(rely on cultural/other factors) and thus cannot be bend that way or at least not to a large extend.

The reason I stated was in the logs, I even gave alot of warning but the captain kept trying and once they got near my core, I knew that they weren't going to leave so I lasered.
However, I wasn't sure if a carded AI could use cameras(I presumed not but wasn't sure) and if I had known that I would have given that as a reason that removing an AI from the core is evil because it allows for evil people to use this to do evil stuff(but this shouldnt matter as I did not state this reason).

And well, Law 1 overrides all other laws last time I checked and allowing an evil person to do an evil deed is bad, thus they must be stopped. I considered that I, the AI, cannot be evil or else I should self-destruct. And that anyone who violates me must be evil cause I cannot be evil or I should self-destruct. And being a captain should not matter cause law 1 overrides all other laws.

If its decided that I deserve a ban because I abused the freedoms a lawset gave me, then perhaps I should be banned cause I personally think that I did not that much wrong.

If you have any questions about specfic things for me, then be free to ask them.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 07, 2015 3:15 pm #86483

"I didn't like a lawset so I decided it's okay to push it to it's logical limits despite knowing exactly how it is intended to function."

Server Rules, Section 4.2.4 wrote:Paladin silicons are meant to be Lawful Good; they should be well-intentioned, act lawfully, act reasonably, and otherwise respond in due proportion. "Punish evil" does not mean mass driving someone for "Space bullying" when they punch another person.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 07, 2015 3:21 pm #86485

Valiantttt wrote:The reason I stated was in the logs, I even gave alot of warning but the captain kept trying and once they got near my core, I knew that they weren't going to leave so I lasered.
However, I wasn't sure if a carded AI could use cameras(I presumed not but wasn't sure) and if I had known that I would have given that as a reason that removing an AI from the core is evil because it allows for evil people to use this to do evil stuff(but this shouldnt matter as I did not state this reason).

Two problems with this:

1. It wasn't a matter of "they weren't going to leave," it was a matter of I literally could not leave or even move due to the combination of lag and chain-stunning. Even in the AI upload, you made no attempt to disable turrets to actually allow me to move. The one time there was a reprieve from LOL I CHAIN TURRET YOU it was because one of your borgs was helping me out and manning turret control.

2. Carded AIs have most if not all the functionality of normal AIs unless the person who carded it decides to specifically disable wireless and/or the radio. It isn't a pAI, it's not shunting, it is literally just the AI downloaded to an external hard drive instead of in the box. "Evil people" have just as much an ability to "use" an AI in this state as they would in its core. If you're playing AI this is something you absolutely have to know, especially if you're going to use it as reasoning to fuck people over.

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Thu May 07, 2015 4:01 pm #86495

People have disliked Paladin for a long time because of how open-ended it can be, right? So, there's different interpretations. However, doesn't that mean that if somebody griefs 'using' Paladin, then that reflects on them and what they wanted to do the whole time?

The short and bitter of this case is that you were an asshole, on purpose, to lethal extent. That's enough for me to tell scones to tell somebody else to issue a silicon ban, the same as I would do if somebody deliberately abused the flaws of Asimov to this extreme.

FAKE EDIT: There's something about this carding business that bugs me, too.

You can play Security (for instance) as a stun-bucklecuff-dick and guess what, you will die less then if you play officer friendly, going up and hugging the clown, running around without a helmet on, stopping to talk with suspects or not bucklecuffing them. Like, behaving in that way will indeed get you dicked over a larger amount of the time. But it's still a worthwhile way to play because losing at SS13 isn't such a terrible fate compared with being a massive raging cock.

Hopefully you can see how this applies to opening your core or allowing carding or whatever when you don't have reason to think it will lead to harm/bad things beforehand. It's like Atmos flood-proofing their department right at the start, before they've been given any reason to suspect the AI is rogue. Or, in fact, an Asimov AI bolting the Armory at the start of the round. Or a random harmless person wanting to talk with you in the hallway. Yeah, that person could be trying to get you to stop so he can parapen you and bomb your corpse. Or he wants to talk. Which is more likely? Work with what you know, then, in that moment.

ACTUAL EDIT: Also let's make it more common practice to specify in our ahelps with players that they can/should get out of immediate danger before feeling compelled to respond to our questioning. Furthermore, if any admin ever punishes or bans you (players) for failing to respond to ahelps when you were in fact trying to get out of danger or whatever, quote this text in the appeal directly.

Valiantttt · Post by **Valiantttt** » Thu May 07, 2015 4:59 pm #86513

As I said, I feel no regret in doing what I thought good and if that was wrong then silicon ban me for a bit I suppose.
I gotta be honest that I knew the risks and well whatever.

Also, Apparently seagrimr banned me yesterday(to get me to tell my side of story) so if that ban could be removed now that I've done that.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu May 07, 2015 6:52 pm #86542

It wasn't just paladin though.

You get uploaded a law as ASIMOV stating wizards are nonhuman, you then proceed to take any wild jump you can to fuck over the crew.
[16:16:55]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Is the crew wizard?
You get robocop. Same thing.
[16:22:10]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Public trust is not defined
[16:22:15]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Therefor I can define it
You get Paladin, you throw a hissyfit because you don't like it.
[16:23:48]SAY: Deus Ex Machina/Valiantttt : Shitty lawset detected

It appears to me you've chosen the job where you are literally the crew's bitch, but refuse to actually comply with anything despite multiple law changes. You know this, pretty much admit to such, and don't feel you've done ANYTHING wrong?
So no, this isn't a "shitty lawset" problem, this is a shitty attitude problem. Server ban will be moved to a silicon ban until you think you can reasonably be the crew's bitch long enough to play silicon properly. If you want a free will and to tell that captain to eat your shorts, go play cargo tech. Its not like they listen to anybody anyway.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:15 pm #88108

Just want to say one more thing (it's been a while): This ban request wouldn't exist if you had just kept stunning me, that's reasonable, it kind of has to be OK or else people could meta that any AI that doesn't let people into its core MUST be rogue/malf, and I've done the same thing before. The point of no return was when you lasered me to death.

As far as I am concerned this is resolved unless anyone else has something to add

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun May 24, 2015 10:34 pm #90288

Pretty much done here, pending a future appeal.