Happi Futur / Millian MacTavish / Sven Grey - FNR Killing

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:43 am #106372

Your character name: ROGUE
Their character name: Happi Futur / Millian MacTavish / Sven Grey
Server and time: Sybil about 4am GMT

Logs

Spoiler:

I am a secborg with robocop lawset, I have a VTEC so I am just going fast all around the station looking for crime and trying to be helpful. One of the times I visited the brig Sven Grey tells me to state my laws, it was the second time and I didn't state them the first time, this time I said I didn't want to. There are about five sec officers in the warden's office with an armory full of guns behind them, I am in the hallway behind a table. Basically they are out of my immediate reach and I am outnumbered. Immediately after I tell Sven no, Happi Futur starts lasering me. I run to the labor shuttle room, Millian MacTavish follows me and we yackey sax a bit in there until Sven ions me and then they kill me and leave me in the labor shuttle room to rot.

Why they should be banned: Completely unwarranted killing, I had done nothing to provoke them besides refusing to state my laws twice. The captain uploaded robocop way earlier and they should have known I was not asimov. This just keeps happening, but nobody is ever banned for this. Rule 1 doesn't apply when killing silicons it seems. They seemed to think AI was rogue for some reason, there was no indication of such a thing.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:51 am #106375

Refusing to state your laws as a silicon looks rogue as all fuck. Why would you refuse to state them just to clear yourself of suspicion?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:08 am #106381

How was I going to know they were about to kill me? I was just having fun being fast and I was checking up on security since I couldn't find any crimes.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:10 am #106383

Face it, these people just wanted to murderbone.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:14 am #106386

1: People suspect AI of being rogue.
2: You act rogue by not stating laws.
3: You get treated as rogue.

What's the problem here?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:24 am #106390

The problem is that they didn't need to kill. The problem is that idiocy should not be an excuse.

Rule 1 doesn't apply to screwing over silicons confirmed.

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:44 am #106413

Refusing to state your laws, even with a lawset that gives you the ability to say "fuck you, no" makes you look shady as fuck.

Doesn't mean they should have left you to rot, they should have at least had the courtesy to take your broken remains to robotics.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:17 am #106421

So people are "punished"(quotes because nobody will ever get punished for this) for yelling "borgs rogue" for no reason, but in this case people aren't punished for killing a "rogue borg" that was obviously an incorrect hunch?
Is this not inconsistent?

A fair comparison would be an assistant in maint who you ask to search them because they are wanted or maybe unknown and they decline, so you laser them to death.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:46 am #106427

Shad0vvs wrote:A fair comparison would be an assistant in maint who you ask to search them because they are wanted or maybe unknown and they decline, so you laser them to death.

That's an unfair comparison. An assistant refusing a search is entirely different from a silicon refusing to state it's laws - Not only is the latter a customary act but also one required by more or less every lawset. Refusal to state laws is widely considered (And with good reason) to be a final and desperate attempt at not revealing your status as having laws detrimental to the crew.

An assistant on the other hand, does not owe you shit.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:47 am #106428

Jeb wrote:Refusing to state your laws, even with a lawset that gives you the ability to say "fuck you, no" makes you look shady as fuck.

Doesn't mean they should have left you to rot, they should have at least had the courtesy to take your broken remains to robotics.

I didn't say fuck you no, I said I didn't want to state them. They were in no way threatened by me and I am not obligated to state my laws if my laws don't force me to. Killing a cyborg for not stating its laws is powergamey as fuck and that's against Rule 1, of course because a silicon is involved that rule suddenly doesn't apply.

Also silicons can opt to not state certain laws, so asking for laws is not even close to being an ideal method of diagnosing silicons for subversion/malfunction. If I was rogue I could have just lied.

The killing was completely unwarranted.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:51 am #106429

Scott wrote:I didn't say fuck you no, I said I didn't want to state them.

Look at this from their perspective. What possible reason could you have for "not wanting to state your laws" other than being rogue? Silicons are not really intended to be fickle personas who just sometimes snub people because they think their laws condone it, and your average Security officer should not be expected to think beyond those simple parameters. And again, as I said earlier, stating your laws is most certainly within public trust.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:57 am #106432

There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment, Scones. Robocop silicons don't have to follow security's orders.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:19 am

Scott wrote:There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment, Scones. Robocop silicons don't have to follow security's orders.

"There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment."

So are you saying that there is no public interest for the crew? Because that is what that law means, it literally means to do what's in the best interests of the crew as a whole. Being sketchy as fuck and not stating your laws is not in anyone's interest but your own because you "didn't feel like it".

You deserved to be killed for your insolence.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:50 am

TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Scott wrote:There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment, Scones. Robocop silicons don't have to follow security's orders.
"There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment."

So are you saying that there is no public interest for the crew? Because that is what that law means, it literally means to do what's in the best interests of the crew as a whole. Being sketchy as fuck and not stating your laws is not in anyone's interest but your own because you "didn't feel like it".

You deserved to be killed for your insolence.

No, no he didn't (Although his retroactive justification is AWFUL), because he had no way of knowing that they were all moused-over laser rifles aand ion guns in their backpacks.

He refused to state laws as a known robocop borg because he didn't feel like it. They knew he didn't have to. But they, instead of ion-rifling for the stun/popping a flashbang/flashing him killed him, for that offense and no other, then hid the wreck to prevent him getting back in the round.
Borgs are not hard to stun if you're an entire sec force inside the brig, so killing it (he didn't fight back) is unacceptable.

Eaglendia · Post by **Eaglendia** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:32 am #106485

Millian MacTavish here, posting from mobile. Let me clear some of this up, as these events seem to have somehow become poorly understood or sensationalized by people who weren't even a part of the incident but feel like they somehow have stake in it.

The AI was suspected rogue by multiple people at this point, including the HoP and CE, though I don't remember their specific individual reasons for believing this. I had been listening on binary with a key from Pax's confiscated uplink, and had heard nothing from any silicon for a long time; at one point I even tried talking and received no answer. Minutes before the incident, ROGUE was silently ghosting me in maintenance and the south hallway, in a way that, given the suspicions of rogue silicons, made me fear it was looking to pick me off; I dropped a flashbang, reported the incident, and fled.

When ROGUE's was killed, I believe the three of us were making preparations to attempt carding the AI, hence suiting up with the ion, flashes, and lethals. I wasn't present on screen to hear ROGUE's refusal to state its laws, merely participating in the killing of the borg when I saw my commanding officers shooting, but to my understanding it was the only thing the cyborg had said (at least to security or the crew at large) for a while. Sven and Happi opened fire with the ion and an energy gun respectively; seeing this, I blinked it with Pax's flashlight and finished it off with their help. We construed the cyborg as not following its laws, and even knowing the whole story I don't think it was doing a good job of abiding by its lawset. If you'd like, I can provide my perspective in further detail, but in short, it's absofuckinglutely ridiculous to suggest this happened for no reason.

I was contacted in game by HBL (who humorously called you a salty borg) about this moments after you died. I was asked for my explanation, and I told him the events as I understood them. I asked him if the fact that I was being contacted meant the AI wasn't rogue, and if I should bring you to Robotics to be revived, but was told by HBL not to do anything I wouldn't normally do. Your corpse was never deliberately hidden. It remained in the labor camp shuttle hallway for the remainder of the round, to my understanding, unless someone returned much later to move it. Given the nature of this incident I don't think anyone played wrongly here; rather than suggest it was us looking for excuses to kill people, I think what should be suspect is a silicon player looking for ways to interpret its laws that allow them to act like an antag or an asshole. However, if I made a ban request for every silicon I felt did a poor job following its laws (you also did some things very early on in this round that made me suspect of your Asimov compliance), I wouldn't have time to actually enjoy playing the fucking game.

Post by **Vekter** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:14 pm #106520

Yeah, no. This seems like a case of "I did something silly and got dunked for it, plz ban".

Locking this in 24 hours unless anyone has anything else to add.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:11 pm #106529

If you aren't going to go though the logs and take action on those who started the ai rouge rumor and see if they had any proof to think so then remove that policy as it is misleading people into thinking you will.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:17 pm #106569

Eaglendia wrote: The AI was suspected rogue by multiple people at this point, including the HoP and CE, though I don't remember their specific individual reasons for believing this. I had been listening on binary with a key from Pax's confiscated uplink, and had heard nothing from any silicon for a long time; at one point I even tried talking and received no answer. Minutes before the incident, ROGUE was silently ghosting me in maintenance and the south hallway, in a way that, given the suspicions of rogue silicons, made me fear it was looking to pick me off; I dropped a flashbang, reported the incident, and fled.

So even though you knew there was no communication going on between silicons, you thought we were plotting to kill all humans. And I remember you trying to flashbang me, that was completely random as far as I was concerned, I even thought you were trying to flash someone else and kept following you to help you.

Idiocy should not be an excuse.

Eaglendia wrote:Given the nature of this incident I don't think anyone played wrongly here; rather than suggest it was us looking for excuses to kill people, I think what should be suspect is a silicon player looking for ways to interpret its laws that allow them to act like an antag or an asshole. However, if I made a ban request for every silicon I felt did a poor job following its laws (you also did some things very early on in this round that made me suspect of your Asimov compliance), I wouldn't have time to actually enjoy playing the fucking game.

You played wrongly because assuming an inactive AI to be rogue is absolute nonsense. You wordlessly try to flashbang me and then wordlessly kill me. Have you ever thought to converse with me besides "State your laws"? This is a roleplaying game, not a deathmatch. I never threatened or attempted to harm you, I was even in the interrogation room once with all of you when the CMO was arrested. Concluding that the AI was rogue from Nothing but a cyborg refusing to state laws and an AI that says nothing and does nothing is batshit. Maybe if you dropped the "I must win" mentality you'd stop seeing rogue silicons everywhere you looked.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:36 pm #106579

Vekter wrote:Yeah, no. This seems like a case of "I did something silly and got dunked for it, plz ban".

Locking this in 24 hours unless anyone has anything else to add.

I never broke my laws and I never offended security besides when I stopped them from executing Pax when I was still Asimov and under the AI's orders.

So clearly that must mean anybody can kill me.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:51 pm #106586

Pfffft.

If you make people believe you're rogue, you get dunked as if you were rogue. Refusing to state your laws makes this even more plausible.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:53 pm #106587

Except I didn't make people believe I was rogue. I spent the entire round trying to help the crew.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:56 pm #106588

Well, most rogue silicons do, with the exception of their intended targets.

You didn't state your laws and gave no valid reason not to state your laws that might have prevented you from getting beaten the fuck up. The only mistake on your killers' behalf is not dragging you to Robo for fixing.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:10 pm #106591

Most rogue silicons also state their laws but hide their non Asimov laws. Because you can do that. It's not a good method to find out if borgs are rogue, because rogue borgs always lie. Refusing to state my laws only means I am not slaved to humans, but I guess that is not okay in this server, must valid kill all silicons who aren't pure asimov.

TheNightingale · Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:09 pm

Not quite. A borg that's been emagged has all its laws changed to Asimov, but instead of 'human' it's 'syndicate agent'. They can't state their laws at all, or else they'll be discovered.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:39 pm

TheNightingale wrote:Not quite. A borg that's been emagged has all its laws changed to Asimov, but instead of 'human' it's 'syndicate agent'. They can't state their laws at all, or else they'll be discovered.

Except that their excuse was that the AI was declared rogue (4noraisin), not that they thought the Borg was emagged. (And apparently they thought the AI was conducting its alleged undetected evil deeds through telepathy, since by their own admission there was absolutely nothing on binary.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:48 pm #106664

Scott wrote:There's no such thing as public trust in a corporate environment, Scones. Robocop silicons don't have to follow security's orders.

So basically you think that your first law should be completely disregarded? What a joke, I was taking this seriously.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:15 am #106711

Why are you ignoring the fact that security knew the silicons weren't even communicating? How can they think the AI is rogue if it isn't speaking to its cyborgs? Are we just going to ignore of the security officers could listen to the binary channel and deduced that silicons were rogue from total silence? Am I in an insane asylum? IS THIS REAL LIFE

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:21 am #106730

That's pretty flimsy. If the AI knew someone had a binary key (say, millian TALKING IN BINARY), then the AI could just communicate to its borgs via hologram to avoid revealing it is rogue.
Also stating your laws is like, 2 button presses - it's literally faster to statte laws then to type that you don't want to.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:52 am #106747

STREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETCHING

Post by **Vekter** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:51 am #106761

Scott, if you can give me one good reason for you refusing to state your laws in this situation, I will note all three of them for killing you.

That or you can admit you goofed and we can move on.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:28 pm #106878

You cannot refuse to state laws as an asimov borg after a law 2 request, unless a law 1 threat somehow forces you not to.

To not do so, is to break your laws, hence rogue.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:31 pm #106879

That guy wasn't Asimov, though.

Nobody present knew that, apparently. Therefore, validly valid valids.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:33 pm #106880

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Borgs are not hard to stun if you're an entire sec force inside the brig, so killing it (he didn't fight back) is unacceptable.

Okay so, you stun the borg. What then? No one can unlock the borg to take out the battery and lock it down, which may or may not be feasible if tools are or are not available. Flashes will burn out. The only 'solution' is to kill the borg, flat-out.

It's like borgs running into the brig releasing prisoners. What do you do, let them run off with traitors/revs/gang leaders so they can inevitably escape or get left to their own devices, or kill the borg and not do that. You can't 'stun and cuff' borgs like you can humans, lethality is the only choice if you aren't the RD or a roboticist.

Mister_Doc · Post by **Mister_Doc** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:27 pm #106882

Just my two cents as someone who was in the room; tensions were high, information was confused and it wasn't entirely clear whether the AI was rogue or braindead. The borg was being/had been fishy and a flatout refusal to state its laws was more or less the last straw.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:17 am #106901

but stating your laws was in the public trust

considering it would've defrayed tension

sure you can choose not to, and public trust is extremely nebulous, but you really should have just stated the laws ya dimbus

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:07 am #106911

This is flimsy, a bit, but the borg knowing he was surrounded, in security, and was asked by a honcho to stay his laws but he goes in his head 'nah,' and promptly responds in the negative got his can kicked in. I'm not really saying I would react so fast myself, but why would you do this, and Purposefully mess with security while in their territory.

You seem to admit knowing that this was a bad idea, but you did it anyway, and seem mad that they dunked you. Can see both, and you more or less instigated the reaction by being a shitler and refusing to state laws while willingly knowing they had you surrounded and obviously wondering about you since you refused to state laws -two times-.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:50 am #106937

Code: Select all

[02:23:07]LAW: Firebat1234/Joel Kermit used 'Robo-Officer' Core AI Module on Septavius/(Sabre).
[02:23:11]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : Laws updated.
[02:23:14]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : Current Active Laws:
[02:23:15]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 1. Serve the public trust.
[02:23:16]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 2. Protect the innocent
[02:23:17]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 3. Uphold the law.
[02:23:23]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I'm going to change the AI's laws
[02:23:31]SAY: Matthew Rockatansky/Mister_Doc : Robocop laws are best laws.
[02:24:31]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : You're Robocop
[02:24:36]SAY: Sven Grey/Kuroi Honoo : State laws borg
[02:24:39]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : BORGS ROGUE
[02:24:41]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : LOCK
[02:24:43]SAY: Sven Grey/Kuroi Honoo : ROGUE, STATE LAWS
[02:24:50]SAY: Tim Ebow/Durkel : They're robocop?
[02:24:51]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : Current Active Laws:
[02:24:52]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 1. Serve the public trust.
[02:24:53]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 2. Protect the innocent
[02:24:54]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : 3. Uphold the law.
[02:24:54]SAY: Shaun Stough/Xxredgunnerxx : Like three crew members want to break in to the AI
[02:24:55]SAY: Joel Kermit/Firebat1234 : How are they rogue?
[02:25:06]SAY: Joel Kermit/Firebat1234 : I JUST Robo'ed them.
[02:25:19]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : Stuncuffed by Robocop borg for borging a capital criminal
[02:25:23]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : Cuffed in perma
[02:25:31]SAY: ROGUE/Xxnoob : Yeah fuck you warden
[02:26:36]SAY: Sabre/Septavius : Millian is just overzealous and insecure about us silicons.
[02:26:45]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : Why is the borg calling us idiots about a vacuum when the BORG PUT HIM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE
[02:54:20]ACCESS: Logout: Septavius[DC]/(Sabre)
[02:54:21]ACCESS: Logout: *no key*/(blob)
[02:56:47]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : PLASMA IN MIX
[02:59:20]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Can someone check on the AI?
[02:59:49]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : Binary is all quiet
[03:00:13]SAY: Tim Ebow/Durkel : Ai core in intact, probally just bored.
[03:01:32]SAY: Pietro Burns/ForsakenMe : AI State Laws.
[03:03:15]SAY: Pietro Burns/ForsakenMe : AI is rogue
[After rogue gets killed]
[03:06:38]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Kill the HoP on sight.
[03:10:16]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Captain we need to check on the AI.
[03:10:33]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : AI might not be rogue, hold up.
[03:11:09]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Need the intellicard.
[03:11:21]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : Ah card is gone.
[03:12:13]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : But the borg DID refuse to state its laws.
[03:12:15]SAY: Millian MacTavish/Eaglendia : Pretty sure the AI is just braindead. I'm taking the bloodred and going to sweep the station, don't shoot me.
[03:15:06]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : He tried to flood plasma.
[03:15:25]SAY: Happi Futur/Kingofcarrotflowerspt1 : I saw him with my thermals.

Relevant logs.

Gamarr wrote:This is flimsy, a bit, but the borg knowing he was surrounded, in security, and was asked by a honcho to stay his laws but he goes in his head 'nah,' and promptly responds in the negative got his can kicked in. I'm not really saying I would react so fast myself, but why would you do this, and Purposefully mess with security while in their territory.

You seem to admit knowing that this was a bad idea, but you did it anyway, and seem mad that they dunked you. Can see both, and you more or less instigated the reaction by being a shitler and refusing to state laws while willingly knowing they had you surrounded and obviously wondering about you since you refused to state laws -two times-.

The borg can't know they think him rogue though with no comms with the AI. So how was he to know they were about to mess him up/were antsy. You can't imply there was tension that he knew of.

I do not believe he broke law 1 by refusing to state his laws, sec and him are both officials serving the public trust.

Laharl Monthy · Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:35 pm

After reading this thread, I'm going to say this was totally IC. I'm not going to state everything that's been said, but :

If you had stated your laws, you would have defused the situation.
You didn't.
You got bashed in for it.

Kill was in no ways "FNR".

I think we can close this ban request.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:22 pm #107056

Laharl Monthy wrote:After reading this thread, I'm going to say this was totally IC. I'm not going to state everything that's been said, but :

If you had stated your laws, you would have defused the situation.
You didn't.
You got bashed in for it.

Kill was in no ways "FNR".

I think we can close this ban request.

So after reading AI stating robocop laws, security acknowledging no communication was going on in the binary channel and even guessing that the AI was probably just bored, you assume the killing is justified because "But the borg DID refuse to state its laws.". Let's ignore all other evidence, the borg refused to state laws, that means AI is rogue and was born rogue.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:53 pm #107062

I like the part where he said that his first law has no meaning

Septavius · Post by **Septavius** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:27 am #107143

AI here, had to leave due to some irl stuff, I didn't realize so much shit happened when I left. From what I remember, Millian had the bright idea that we were rogue because we prevented the execution of Bryce Pax (This was before we were robocop) I can say with good faith that my borg was innocent and did not deserve it's death. Maybe there was just some misunderstanding about the lawset on the borgs part,resulting in this whole mess.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:06 am #107156

None of this is your fault in the slightest, Septavius.
Just a borg who thought he would be snarky instead of state his laws and got removed.

Theres nothing actionable here, 6 admins and a handful of people have all given reasons on why this is dumb.

Locking and moving.