Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

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onleavedontatme
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:42 am #108012

Despite our players being man children, we don't actually run a school.

We have an entire section of the rules dedicated to "escalation," where in a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong makes a right.



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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:10 am #108016

Gulag is only tolerable because of the flavor it gives security and it lets you perma people even when the station has gone to shit, brig is compromised, etc.

As far as a replacement for assigning non-perma sentences it is awful. It's the same as a regular sentence (when reasonable points are assigned, they often aren't) except the sentence is now variable from (apparently) 2 minutes to 20 minutes based on how much metaknowledge you've acquired (I played for over a year before I even realized that shovels were used for sand to make glass). My reaction (and you can confirm it in logs) was that Gulag is a perma sentence because its so goddamn awful at trying to give someone a reasonable regular sentence that the only time you'd go through the effort of shipping someone off there when you have perfectly functional brig cells is if you intended to lock them away forever. The fact that Saphira deliberately made sure that nobody else in security knew about me being sent to Gulag had me completely convinced this was her way of slipping me off station forever to "prove who's boss", Saphira KNEW that the science officer did not want me held without evidence and did not want me held up in interrogation for more than a couple minutes, Saphira KNEW that if word got out that she was gulag'ing the detainee that she had promised to release shortly, that there would be blowback, I'd be released, she might even be humiliated by being arrested herself - with her ego firing on all 4 cylinders I had no doubt that she wanted this to be hush hush since nothing would be more embarassing than having her reprimanded in front of me after going on her little powertrip.

@Saeg

Hey now that wasn't a tirade about spacewind, it was more like a dialogue. It was also more about syphon/air pump spacewind. But yea, no doubt that it's dangerous to go near a giant hull breach. More on that in a moment.

Saegrimr wrote:Here come the fucking precedent squad of "OH BOY TIME TO DO x FOREVER BECAUSE IT GOT RULED VALID"


You make plenty of reasonable points on other matters but you know that there are like 5 people on this server than can effectively run toxins and would be comfortable using bombs as a non-antag and likewise there are maybe 1-2 non-admins here who will read this ban request, see the admin opinions, and have it influence their perspective on what our rules mean. The odds of someone belonging to both of those categories and misusing this discussion to assume "BOMBING SEC NOW VALID 5EVER" is exceedingly unlikely. Also of all the people on this server I'm the least likely to continue a line of behavior just because it got le valid stamp. There's a shit ton of shit I've successfully appealed or gotten ruled valid that I wouldn't ever do these days simply because I don't get some sadistic joy from toe'ing the line and getting bwoink'd. Once I understand where the line exists in a vague part of the rules, I don't roll right up to it just because I survived an admin encounter before, I steer clear because I enjoy my rounds more when I'm not debating the finer points of our policy for half the round or the endless shit-talking that ensues when I do something questionable & powergamey. So regardless of how this turns out I don't think your fears are warranted.

Lastly, I have something of substance to add. I found the name of the guy who died in Gulag, it was Darin Hall - not Devin.

His opinion on the matter is pretty clear in Deadchat:

DEAD: Darin Hall says, "BAN OLD MAN META GAMING FAG"


But that aside he also admitted that my bomb didn't kill him, his walking up to a giant opening to space killed him.

DEAD: Darin Hall says, "I ran to see what the fuck happened"

DEAD: Darin Hall says, "only natural"


While I don't doubt that bombing Gulag didn't improve his situation, and I definitely regret that he was affected by the blast, even if he is a complete shit. He didn't die in the blast and he had a radio to report the Gulag bombing and wait for rescue on the shuttle-remnants to arrive. I wouldn't have detonated the bomb if I knew he was there and I think I've made my case for why I thought it was empty and disabling Gulag shuttle was OK. I'm not saying to discount what happened to him, or that it makes what I did more/less wrong, just laying out what I found in the logs.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:19 am #108017

If your going to bomb anything the gulag is high on the list of area's that no one cares about and no one will miss if its bombed. The worst you'll do is deny access to the second securitron for the extreamly rare HoS/Warden that runs over to nab it.

Gulag sentencing is horrible as well as sentence times usually run for a very long time, up to half an hour if not more. This also assumes the arresting officer knows how the gulag works and remembers to give the prisoner a ID card.

From my experience the gulag is usually only used to quietly move someone off the station to avoid detection, usually from the AI but sometimes from other people, or when you feel a bit more sadistic.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Scott » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:23 am #108020

So is any action being taken against the OP?

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Saegrimr » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:37 am #108022

Oldman Robustin wrote:You make plenty of reasonable points on other matters but you know that there are like 5 people on this server than can effectively run toxins and would be comfortable using bombs as a non-antag and likewise there are maybe 1-2 non-admins here who will read this ban request, see the admin opinions, and have it influence their perspective on what our rules mean. The odds of someone belonging to both of those categories and misusing this discussion to assume "BOMBING SEC NOW VALID 5EVER" is exceedingly unlikely.

Granted half the people that spout that shit I highly doubt would actually test that line in-game anyway.

I'm not accusing you going out to walk that line because of a ruling, just stating my general distaste for that crowd and how we should avoid making random rulings like ahammer's "break a rule and you're valid IC" comment.

Scott wrote:So is any action being taken against the OP?

Action was already taken before this thread was even made, apparently. The entirety of this is just bickering.
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby DyslexicGrampa » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:57 am #108024

I had no intentions in taking Oldman out of the game, I did 200 points as from reading gulag it would have been aprox 2-3 minutes of work. I do not play Sam Fisher, ive seen the name around however. I would never use gulag as perma and never have.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:13 am #108026

I had it wrong, Edward fisher. I looked it up in some random logs, Dunno where I got sam from, probably confused myself with Sam Lineman, another sec player I've seen about, As I said in my OP, I know you use the same last name. because you play exactly the same, And I was so confident I made my claim hastily with the wrong first name. Now I have the right one from the parsed logs. [10:17:27]OOC: Edward Fisher/DyslexicGrampa : Yeah

What I said about your tendencies stands. You are abusive.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:22 am #108032

DyslexicGrampa wrote:I had no intentions in taking Oldman out of the game, I did 200 points as from reading gulag it would have been aprox 2-3 minutes of work. I do not play Sam Fisher, ive seen the name around however. I would never use gulag as perma and never have.


Going to beat the dead horse here and say that you gave me absolutely no indication of the latter and every indication of the former in your first sentence. Having an admin tell me that about it an hour later really doesn't affect my decision making during the round.

I've got some friendly advice though, if you don't want people to assume you're going to take the shittiest course of action possible, don't act like you're taking them through the shittiest course of action possible. It's well established here that if you "pretend" to fuck someone over, and they respond by actually fucking you over, you really have no ground to complain on. Even then, 200 points to because a crime victim isn't giving you enough details about his aggressors is about as shit as shitcurity gets.

Also it's clear from the evidence, and even your own statements in the logs, that the bomb wasn't the reason you brought me in.

Saphira Fisher hisses, "Not looking for a bomb sssilly."


You mentioned something about me harassing an assistant in your OP but you never mentioned in during that round when you arrested me, and I literally hadn't laid my hands on anyone all shift long and when you found me I was being threatened for my ID by one of those "masked men", I yelled for you to help me and you stun and arrest me instead. If you weren't looking for a bomb, and you clearly wanted to search me for something else, what exactly was your fucking reason for arresting me in the first place? I had reported two crimes and one instance of suspicious activity to security, I gave security more actionable intel on criminal activity than the rest of the crew combined up to that point. Why in the fucking world did you think it was OK to torture me in interrogation to try and squeeze even more information out of me?

Lastly, why the fuck would you post a ban request that deliberately excludes every relevant piece of information that makes you look bad, throw in a few outright lies, and expect to get away with it?

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby iamgoofball » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:24 am #108033

maybe instead of spending more time trying to argue your way out of a ban than you would actually be banned for, you should accept the ban and do something more productive with life

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:24 am #108034

iamgoofball wrote:maybe instead of spending more time trying to argue your way out of a ban than you would actually be banned for, you should accept the ban and do something more productive with life


"I'm going to shitpost on a thread".

This is a ban request not a ban appeal.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Vekter » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:31 am #108036

Nonantag bombing has always been 24 hours + 24 hours per fatality, with the exception being a wizard.

Robustin will need to make an actual ban appeal in order for it to be turned over.

Thread resolved. PM me if you believe I acted in error.

E: Carry on.
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:58 pm #108127

cultist-chan wrote:

Imagine being a high school headmistress, you have two students.

The first student acts like a bully and is being a overall jerk, they are generally the type of people you don't like.

The second one straight out decks the first student.

Do you excuse the second student's vigilantism?

In this case, however, yes, every admin here would excuse the vigilantism of beating the crap out of the bully.

The complaining is because the metaphorical student rigged a beam to swing behind him and send him flying, at which point the bully knocked into someone else and landed them flat on their ass, making Oldman the metaphorical equivalent of that kid from Home Alone.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:40 pm #108150

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
cultist-chan wrote:

Imagine being a high school headmistress, you have two students.

The first student acts like a bully and is being a overall jerk, they are generally the type of people you don't like.

The second one straight out decks the first student.

Do you excuse the second student's vigilantism?

In this case, however, yes, every admin here would excuse the vigilantism of beating the crap out of the bully.

The complaining is because the metaphorical student rigged a beam to swing behind him and send him flying, at which point the bully knocked into someone else and landed them flat on their ass, making Oldman the metaphorical equivalent of that kid from Home Alone.


And everyone was greatly entertained by the kid's hijinx.

I prefer to relate this to the Oscar-winning movie featuring CIA man.

CIA man takes some poor guy who's all cuffed up with no evidence of their cuplability, isolates him from the world where there's no hope of rescue and attempts to interrogate them, then goes through a bunch of over-the-top threats and displays of dominance while asking about THE MASKED MAN, CIA man is clearly a rogue officer who's enjoying and abusing his position of power over another clearly more robust individual and nobody is saddened when CIA man is killed trying to secretly smuggle a prisoner to his CIA black site, even if another prisoner willingly goes to their death as a result.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:43 pm #108192

It's lifted, since I don't think there was malicious intent behind it, and I think the spirit of the rules matters far more than the exact wording. Rule 0 or whatever. We can continue arguing about the particulars of bomb policy/the sec officer elsewhere.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:12 pm #108200

Kor wrote:\ We can continue arguing about the particulars of bomb policy/the sec officer elsewhere.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4291
Bomb policy
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4290
Security Officer.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:16 pm #108259

Tornadium wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Would you also ban someone if they killed a security officer with their bare fists and a table, who was perma'ing them for zero reason?
Because that's what this is - the only difference was the weapon at hand.


There has always been a policy against Non-antag bombing.

I really don't think we should be encouraging it under any circumstances.

I agree completely, there shouldn't be a single line given for non antag bombings simply because of how messy they are

Oldman might've bombed someone that deserved it but he still caused collateral damage, whether that person died from the blast or because they'd walked into the are is irrelevant - the fact is he still rendered a section of the station a highly dangerous area, even if that prisoner hadn't walked into that area they still would've been stranded with no way to leave - and that is why bombings as a non antag have always been a zero tolerance ban.

We've ruled countless times in the past that bombs are not a self defence weapon, forceful has been around well enough to be aware of that; it wouldn't be without precedence that forceful should have a week ban plus a long term science ban.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:53 pm #108266

Malkevin wrote:
Tornadium wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Would you also ban someone if they killed a security officer with their bare fists and a table, who was perma'ing them for zero reason?
Because that's what this is - the only difference was the weapon at hand.


There has always been a policy against Non-antag bombing.

I really don't think we should be encouraging it under any circumstances.

I agree completely, there shouldn't be a single line given for non antag bombings simply because of how messy they are

Oldman might've bombed someone that deserved it but he still caused collateral damage, whether that person died from the blast or because they'd walked into the are is irrelevant - the fact is he still rendered a section of the station a highly dangerous area, even if that prisoner hadn't walked into that area they still would've been stranded with no way to leave - and that is why bombings as a non antag have always been a zero tolerance ban.

We've ruled countless times in the past that bombs are not a self defence weapon, forceful has been around well enough to be aware of that; it wouldn't be without precedence that forceful should have a week ban plus a long term science ban.


I agree, and I'd reconsider the whole thing again if he was blowing up a traitor for sick valids, but I think the banbaiting on the part of security officer is more cancerous to the game than collateral damage from non-antag bombings.

Lesser of two evils.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:13 am #108273

Kor wrote:
I agree, and I'd reconsider the whole thing again if he was blowing up a traitor for sick valids, but I think the banbaiting on the part of security officer is more cancerous to the game than collateral damage from non-antag bombings.

Lesser of two evils.

Then feel encouraged to address the banbaiting sec officer, And while it's against teh roools to bomb in self defense, there are numerous mitigating circumstances for that, and time served should be enough. especially considering he's got bombs often and we're not in FNR about robustin bombing erry day.

Calls for the heads of shitcurity are cancerous, but actual legitimate shitcurity is still very much real. and this is one of those cases of some malicious person power-tripping. or as I put it, playing a rousing refreshing game of poke the powergamer.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:18 am #108339

You've side stepped what I've said though.
If someone bombs another guy, both as non antags, in a situation where killing them would be otherwise valid (escalated etc), and it causes LITERALLY NO DAMAGE (ie: in space, nothing even near you), then would you still get banned, purely because it was a bomb?

If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to say to you because that's retarded.
If the answer is no, then what if the sitution was on the derelict, or the middle of the asteroid?

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:01 am #108359

Why are you asking dumb questions?

Derelict is fine because it is already a hostile environment
Asteroid is fine because it is already a hostile environment

The reason bombing is a zero tolerance is because it makes a large area into a huge hazard which requires a massive effort to fix

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:32 am #108366

...like the gulag, which almost no one ever uses, and isn't even on the station?

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Saegrimr » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:09 am #108414

lumipharon wrote:...like the gulag, which almost no one ever uses, and isn't even on the station?


Could we stop throwing this everywhere? If nobody uses it, how did he get there in the first place to bomb it?
It gets used, more often in recent days for some reason.

Almost nobody uses the vacant office near tool storage but i'll still remove you for bombing that.
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Laharl Monthy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:16 pm #108421

I'm going to agree with Kor here : even tho this goes against the normal rules, this is why we have rule 0.

That display out of the sec officer was...Terrible. I mean, 10 minutes for an interrogation, no real proof for an arrest, and then put in the bloody Gulag? Bloody hell mate, that's absolutely ridiculous. It's stuff like this that fuels the "Shitcurity" myth.

I'd say that "exceptional circumstances" allows that one bombing instance. It was also done on the gulag, not on station, so it doesn't have any -real- impact on the current round. Believe me, this ban would have stayed if the bombing occured on station. So Lumi has a point there.

Only few problems are :

    The colateral death : not directly due to the explosion, but more due to him walking into the space opening. Most unfortunate, and I think he could avoided it. Not sure.

    Oldman's bomb implanting : okay, this one's actually kinda powergamey, I'll say. I can understand that you did it after you met the two thralls that wanted to subdue you, but that is going a big extra mile, isn't it? So please, don't make that an habit.

Either way, I'm okay with this ban being lifted in the end.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:23 pm #108422

lumipharon wrote:...like the gulag, which almost no one ever uses, and isn't even on the station?

Except that it isn't a hostile environment by default, and does get used occasionally - including this incident you dumb fucking twat.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby captain sawrge » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:47 pm #108444

Bombs going off in most areas of the station would affect at least one other part. The hallways might get damaged and depressurised or another department will take some damage too, not to mention most parts of the station are pretty much vital to things going smoothly. The gulag is used, yes, but it's so out of the way that if the gulag is bombed the worst that happens as far as impacting the round is that sec just has to keep using cells. Bombing the gulag isn't going to fuck up the hallways or the medbay or leave a big hole in the brig and let retards in and out or prevent easy access to anything (except of course the gulag itself). That's what people are trying to say when they say it's a rarely used area.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:48 pm #108465

captain sawrge wrote:The gulag is used, yes, but it's so out of the way that if the gulag is bombed the worst that happens as far as impacting the round is that sec just has to keep using cells.

No... the worst that can happen is you end up either stranding or killing another player who is completely unrelated to your grievance.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED HERE!!!

Just because someone is being terrible to you doesn't mean you can be terrible yourself.

There's a MASSIVE difference between making a stun prod and spear and getting revenge vs being a massive man baby and throwing the game board up in a rage quit by bombing yourself, the cunt, the station, and anyone unlucky enough to get in the way or fall into the danger zone.


What the admins should've done is either:
-a: Told the officer to stop being a fuck knuckle and let Oldman go
-or b: used their fucking admin tools to spawn Oldman the tools needed to escape and made him a semi-antag with a "Get revenge" objective - JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE OLD DAYS!

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:12 pm #108473

Being used as a less crucial bomb testing site to take this fucker out is the single greatest contribution the gulag has made this fiscal year. Not that it's meritless, but that it's unfinished and needs streamlining, it's current state is garbage.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby cultist-chan » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:30 pm #108477

Malkevin wrote:What the admins should've done is either:
-a: Told the officer to stop being a fuck knuckle and let Oldman go
-or b: used their fucking admin tools to spawn Oldman the tools needed to escape and made him a semi-antag with a "Get revenge" objective - JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE OLD DAYS!


This. A thousand times this. I totally agree with this. The problem is that he:

Didn't ask for help.

The game has enough hyper vigilantism.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:37 pm #108505

Kor wrote:Despite our players being man children, we don't actually run a school.

We have an entire section of the rules dedicated to "escalation," where in a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong followed by a wrong makes a right.


This.

If all the testimony here is true, Oldman was brought into the brig and treated worse than someone who would've committed a capital crime over nothing. When he finally got fed up he detonated himself to get revenge. That kind of escalation is like...the underlying fundamental RP of this entire fucking game. If you can't understand that get deadminned.

I wonder if it would've taken this much arguing and intervention to reach the proper conclusion if it had been anybody but ForcefulCJS this happened to.

I'm looking at the people making these terrible judgements and it's like a Who's Who of "People who never should've been made/should not remain admins". Police thineselves, holy christ.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby TheNightingale » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:08 pm #108524

There's a slight difference between 'getting revenge on the judiciary system' and 'exploding a 5/10/20 hole in the gulag and causing the deaths of two people'.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Akkryls » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:32 pm #108535

TheNightingale wrote:There's a slight difference between 'getting revenge on the judiciary system' and 'exploding a 5/10/20 hole in the gulag and causing the deaths of two people'.


One person who was directly at fault for causing the situation, and one person because they decided to walk into the hole left behind by the damage?

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby whodaloo » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:03 pm #108544

cultist-chan wrote:The game has enough hyper vigilantism.

I agree, admins are way too quick to ban for ic situations like this.

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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:12 am #108585

Malkevin wrote:
lumipharon wrote:...like the gulag, which almost no one ever uses, and isn't even on the station?

Except that it isn't a hostile environment by default, and does get used occasionally - including this incident you dumb fucking twat.


If we're going to drop all these hypos about the Gulag, why not acknowledge that the sec officer herself threatened me with Gulag saying:

"GULAG IS GOING UNUSED THESE DAYS"

I mean, it's pretty rare that you'll have someone explicitly tell you that the place you end up bombing is unused. I mean there really wasn't anything else I could've had in my position that could've given me a stronger belief that Gulag was empty.

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Malkevin
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:58 am #108624

"These days" is not the same as "not in use today"

The former phrase basically means "thing isn't used a lot, I want to use thing because I want to see it used more"

Nothing about it says they themselves didn't put that other guy in the gulag
Nothing about it says the other eight people with gulag access didn't put that guy in the gulag

Just because someone says that a thing it's rarely used doesn't mean that he nor other people have used that thing, as evidenced in this very fucking scenario.

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Falamazeer
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:09 am #108625

Malkevin wrote:"These days" is not the same as "not in use today".

I dunno, you're reaching a bit yeah?
I read it as not being used in this context on my first go too.

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Malkevin
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:12 am #108626

Read the rest of my post and stop ignoring my actual point

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Falamazeer
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:40 am #108630

I'm not sure which part failed to address your point.
The sum of your point is that there being someone there is proof that he meant it in the way you framed.

Mine is that neither of them knew the guy was there. And from my log dive earlier, I can tell you saphira wasn't the one to put em in there.
And upon first read of the comment in question, the gist I get from it is that there isn't anyone there and it's a good time to use it, maliciously.

Anyone could easily read that comment and assume it meant that the place was presumably empty. I would. I did.
And you're the first to question it, Yeah it turned out to have an occupant, but this comment alone is enough to give the benefit of the doubt that CJS had every reason to believe he was just taking out an asshole and himself, with a bit of gulag damage to boot, Which I'd consider a mitigating factor in and of itself, because at least he didn't get mad and blow it in interrogation and waited until he was somewhere he had reason to suspect wouldn't take others with him. Doesn't negate the gulag or the accidental victim, but you grasping at straws isn't helping the discussion forward.

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Malkevin
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:09 am #108643

My point is that the reason we have such a low toleration bomb policy is that they are not self defence weapons, they are weapons of mass destruction which create a giant mess and almost always result in collateral damage

The no bombing rule isn't against killing people with bombs, its bombing parts of the station which then create a hazard to everyone else and render parts of the station useless. The fact that someone else died from is largely irrelevant, it just adds more fuel to the fire.

The construction site on meta and the back up power storage area in box's maint are also barely used, but you would still be banned for bombing those.

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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:05 pm #108664

Malkevin wrote:My point is that the reason we have such a low toleration bomb policy is that they are not self defence weapons, they are weapons of mass destruction which create a giant mess and almost always result in collateral damage

The no bombing rule isn't against killing people with bombs, its bombing parts of the station which then create a hazard to everyone else and render parts of the station useless. The fact that someone else died from is largely irrelevant, it just adds more fuel to the fire.

The construction site on meta and the back up power storage area in box's maint are also barely used, but you would still be banned for bombing those.


I bomb plenty of on-station shit, including those, all the time. Difference is I killed actual antags.

I bombed the library as a non-antag because (Malf) AI encouraged me to do it as part of the crew's "FUCK WGW" library deconstruction, that explosion knocked out an officer who got too close after I warned about the impending detonation.

Things aren't so black and white. I also regularly fuck up parts of station infrastructure as part of my experiments. Disposals get messed up, scrubbers network becomes non-functional, tons of heat leaking from my new incinerator, plenty of non-antags shatter windows exposed to space and decompress the entire area, I turned chapel into the new science burn chamber last night, I blew a hole in test science checking the effects of reduced power bombs on the hull, etc. If Darin had wandered into any of these obviously dangerous situations and gotten himself killed I don't think anyone would be complaining. Yet because he's on Gulag suddenly he's not at fault for walking into space.

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Malkevin
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:01 pm #108668

Your defence is that you regularly fuck up parts of the station...
*facepalm*

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Arete
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Arete » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:11 pm #108669

Malkevin wrote:Your defence is that you regularly fuck up parts of the station...
*facepalm*


That's a pretty reasonable defense in a game about a station getting fucked up.

If the purpose of the rules were to keep the station running as smoothly as possible, we wouldn't have antagonists. And the reason the behavior of non-antags is restricted is in order to stop the violence from becoming constant, pointless, and uninteresting. As long as station fuckuppery is only allowed in situations where it's interesting, there's no problem. Without rules to allow non-antags to do this sort of thing every once in awhile, playing a non-antag becomes much less fun and you end up with tons of folks suiciding at roundstart because they didn't get one of the roles that's allowed to initiate interesting interactions.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:18 am #108799

Reaching so far as to blame him for the death of someone who walked into the giant hole to space and died is pretty desperate.

If you don't have the common sense to look out the window of the shuttle, see that shit is totally fucked, realize you aren't properly equipped to enter that environment, and stay the fuck out you deserve it. There are these nifty things on the walls installed all over the place called "air alarms". When they're flashing red, stay the hell out. If the giant hole to space wasn't obvious enough, I mean.

If this had happened someplace critical like right inside the brig, where a ton of people are compelled to traverse on a regular basis who do not normally have access to space suits, I would agree that he might have some measure of responsibility for the deaths of anyone who accidentally ran in to the area (though again, hearing "A big bomb went off in the brig" and immediately deciding to run there unprotected to experience the soothing sensation of space death is kind of also your own dumb fault).

In the case of the Gulag you arrive there in a sealed container fresh off the regular station and protected from the hazards of space. You really only have yourself to blame if you casually strut off that thing and into the harsh vacuum of space. "Whoops!"

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Shadowlight213 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:04 am #108902

Anon3, look at the screenshots...
Does that fucking LOOK like a sealed container to you? The guy who died was already in the gulag.

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Malkevin
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Malkevin » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:57 am #108906

Look at the bomb damage to the gulag.

DyslexicGrampa wrote:Also here is the person who got damaged from the blast and as a result died on gulag from Oldman's explosion. Could not get a player name. Image


Not only is the main area open to space, all the walls along the mine are breached too.

The guy was fucked even if he hadn't ran into the area to look at the blast damage, with fastmos that area is going to drain quick.

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Falamazeer
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:47 am #108920

Luckily he was in an iron mine and could seal the breaches if that had been his choice.
See? now we're both grasping at straws to prove our point.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:53 am #108985

And hes left with a gulag without a ship and a whole lot less air to work with. Sounds fun to me.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby callanrockslol » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:04 am #108991

Falamazeer wrote:Luckily he was in an iron mine and could seal the breaches if that had been his choice.
See? now we're both grasping at straws to prove our point.


He needs a smelter for that, like the one near the huge breach.

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Timbrewolf
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Timbrewolf » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:24 am #109469

The person that died in this situation is totally irrelevant. Like Kor said they never adminhelped it. They were even quoted as saying in dead chat "Welp I died, my mistake".

I'm saying, like others have said, that the gulag isn't a vital portion of the station at all and blowing a hole in it in a situation like this doesn't mean jack shit. Anyone who even shows up after it's been exploded arrives in a perfectly safe space they can see the damage from, and immediately turn around and flee from in complete safety.

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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Timbrewolf » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:33 am #109474

Tornadium wrote:Was an officer during this round.

It was a bit of a clusterfuck and security was pretty massively shit.

I don't really think that bombing in particular warrants as a ban, having a bomb implanted in you FNR as a non-antag is pretty shitty but I can't really complain. The really worry is though if you say this is okay it starts a slippery slope of people doing the same thing when they think security is being shit.

"Oh I got perma-brigged for nothing? Better bomb and kill the officer".



Also i want to point out there's a distinction you're missing here.

A sec officer DOING THEIR JOB doesn't become le epic valid dunkaroo. If you're running around being a piece of shit and an officer starts chasing you to arrest you, you can't smash their skull in with a fire extinguisher claiming self-defense or "I'd just be permabrigged if I let him catch me!"

A sec officer randomly being a huge piece of shit and kidnapping you FNR is just as valid as anybody else...though you should probably alert the admins to what is going on and your intention to handle it IC'ly first so when the piece of shit inevitably adminhelps they already know all the who/what/why of the shitshow. Oldman was totally in the right to shit all over the officer in this situation for those reasons.

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Lumbermancer
 
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Re: Oldman Robustin - Powergame as fuck

Postby Lumbermancer » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:29 am #109506

An0n3 wrote:The person that died in this situation is totally irrelevant. Like Kor said they never adminhelped it.



Remember kids, it's cool to break the rules if no one catches you red handed!

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