August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

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Luke Cox
 
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August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:52 am #138764

Your byond account: NocturnalQuill
Your character name: Luke Cox
Their character name: August Talon
Server and time: Sybil, ~6:30 PST, 12/6/15
Logs and/or screenshots: Chat logs will verify it
Description of what happened: Genetics got hulk, TK, Xray, and cold resist pretty early into the round. The HoS came in, and attempted to kill the non-hulk geneticists, and anybody else who was unfortunate enough to be there. No non-lethal attempt was made to cease the distribution of hulk.
Why they should be banned: The HoS shot lethals at a crowd when no crime had been committed. No, simply being a hulk is not a crime. Hulks, people with other powers, and random bystanders were shot indiscriminately. This warrants a dayban at least, preferably a long-term sec ban.



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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby IrishWristWatch0 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:15 am #138770

Also to note that wasn't mentioned. Genetics or whomever was running genetics, was handing out hulk injectors like candy. I also talked to the Captain who said the hulks and people in genetics were being shit. Whether or not this help/or proves anything, it is worth noting. I also talked to HoS about jumping to lethals.
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Luke Cox
 
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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:20 am #138772

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:Also to note that wasn't mentioned. Genetics or whomever was running genetics, was handing out hulk injectors like candy. I also talked to the Captain who said the hulks and people in genetics were being shit. Whether or not this help/or proves anything, it is worth noting. I also talked to HoS about jumping to lethals.

The hulks never hurt anybody. As I noted, the HoS jumped straight to lethals without trying to peacefully stop distribution. He literally walked up and started killing non-hulks. The worst I saw the hulks doing was smashing genetics windows. This is inexcusable.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Tornadium » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:56 am #138776

Isn't lethals the only way to remove the hulk power?

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:05 am #138777

Tornadium wrote:Isn't lethals the only way to remove the hulk power?

The hulks were peaceful. There was literally no reason to shoot them. Most of the people he shot weren't even hulks. He walked up to the genetics window and started firing lethals at the geneticists (who were not hulks). Most of the people he shot were innocent. He would have been within his rights to arrest the geneticists and demote them, but being a hulk is not a crime, and he was clearly not limiting his lethals to the hulks.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheWulfe » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:21 am #138779

My goal was preventative action by preventing a potential gang/rev/traitor group from getting a mass distribution of Hulk which would have pretty much ended any ability for the station to fight back.

I don't have to have to wait until a 10+ group of hulks are raping the crew before deeming them a threat. There were several 'ARRRGH's on radio so that's basically telling me these hulks are already committing vandalism and potential high security trespassing on the station. I know people have played rounds where a group antag turned their entire team into Hulks. It's not fun and literally impossible to negate.

I recall ordering a stoppage to genetics handing out Hulk but they just ignored it and kept giving Hulk out like candy.

My decision to use lethals was the difference between walking straight into the 10-man Hulk group and get immediately lynched if they were a group-based traitor so I decided it was high-threat enough to fire lethals from a distance. I deliberately shot to crit status which would have been nothing since they were a hallway away from cryo, the other people shot was a guy charging me as a Hulk, and another Hulk-TK guy attacking me with TK (the only way to neutralize these guys are critting away the hulk, and if they get within one tile away from you you get hulk-punched and are now dead.)

And seeing how I literally watched two traitor Hulks literally shower-rape the Captain and others minutes later means I was right in my assessment about the mass-hulking. I could have prevented this and more if I was allowed to finish the job.

A side note is Armory was ate by a morph, so I had one of the few lasers on the station to actually deal with that situation if it was an antagonistic group.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Zilenan91 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:34 am #138784

To be fair, Hulk is fucking awful to deal with and should just be removed. I see no wrong with the HoS immediately lasering Hulks.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:43 am #138800

Zilenan91 wrote:To be fair, Hulk is fucking awful to deal with and should just be removed. I see no wrong with the HoS immediately lasering Hulks.

He lasered the geneticists and other bystanders into crit without a word. He didn't just shoot the hulks, he shot fucking everybody who happened to be there

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Zilenan91 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:46 am #138802

That's a bit shitty, but so long as he healed them all up then it's probably fine.

Also knowing Hulks, there is no peaceful resolution to them. You'll just get shat on by stunbaton hands and your body looted and left in maint. I know this from experience.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby ThanatosRa » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:54 am #138806

I can attest that the hulks weren't causing problems as far as I can tell aside from a smashed wall or two. I would have had it too if not for being on "Strips-the-Flesh" intrepid lizard surgeon.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:08 am #138811

Zilenan91 wrote:That's a bit shitty, but so long as he healed them all up then it's probably fine.

Also knowing Hulks, there is no peaceful resolution to them. You'll just get shat on by stunbaton hands and your body looted and left in maint. I know this from experience.

He critted the geneticists (again, who weren't hulks) and walked away. He had no intention of healing them.

One hulk smashed a window in genetics, and he decided that everybody there was valid, even people who just wanted TK and Xray.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheWulfe » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:35 am #138817

Luke Cox wrote:He lasered the geneticists and other bystanders into crit without a word. He didn't just shoot the hulks, he shot fucking everybody who happened to be there

Luke Cox wrote:He critted the geneticists (again, who weren't hulks) and walked away. He had no intention of healing them.


I believe the actual phrase you were looking for was something like 'Stop handing out Hulk, that is an order!', maybe it was even in all caps, not sure. And of course I critted the non-Hulk geneticists. You know, the people creating the Hulk army that's about the fuck the station.

And read my above post, ignoring the post that completely details the situation may work for flamebaiting or whatever the hell you're doing but it won't work here. Particularly:

My decision to use lethals was the difference between walking straight into the 10-man Hulk group and get immediately lynched if they were a group-based traitor so I decided it was high-threat enough to fire lethals from a distance. I deliberately shot to crit status which would have been nothing since they were a hallway away from cryo, the other people shot was a guy charging me as a Hulk, and another Hulk-TK guy attacking me with TK (the only way to neutralize these guys are critting away the hulk, and if they get within one tile away from you you get hulk-punched and are now dead.)


Use of Deadly Force
As a member of the stations Security force you are one of the best armed and protected people on the station, equipped with the almost latest in non-lethal take down technology.
It is for this reason that the situations that warrant the use of Deadly Force are few and far between, in the grand majority of circumstances you will be expected to use your stun weapons, which indeed are many times more effective than lethal options, to diffuse a situation.
However there are certain circumstances where deadly force is permissible:
Code Red Situation - situations which would warrant a Code Red, such as: full blown mutinies, hostile boarding parties, and Space Wizards automatically authorise lethal force.
Note: The Alert Status is not required to be elevated to Code Red as in most of these scenarios the Chain of Command will be too damaged or otherwise occupied to raise the Alert Level.
Non-Lethal Weapons Ineffective - certain targets are impervious to NLWs, such as Mechs, Xenomorphs, Borgs, and Hulks. Lethal force may be used against these targets if they prove hostile.
Severe Personal Risk - sometimes getting close enough to a target to slap the cuffs on will create significant personal risk to the Officer. Deadly force from range is recommended to subdue Wizards and Changelings.
Criminals in hostile environments such as space, fire, or plasma leaks also fall into this category, as do criminals believed to be in possession of high explosives. Ranged lethal force is the only reasonable option in these conditions.
Armed and Dangerous - if a suspect is in possession of weapons, including stun weapons, and you have reasonable suspicion that they will use these against you, lethal force is permitted. Although in the majority of cases it is still preferable to attempt to detain them non-lethally.
Note: Unauthorised personnel in the armory are considered by default to be Armed and Dangerous, maximum force is permitted to subdue such targets.
Multiple Hostiles - it can be extremely difficult to detain multiple hostiles. As a last resort if you are being mobbed you may deploy your baton in a harmful manner to thin the crowd. Generally it is better to retreat and regroup than stand your ground.

Honestly, literally every part of that besides the Code Red flavor-announcement fits a Hulk Army Creation Room.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:16 am #138822

I read you post, it's just irrelevant because you're flat out making shit up now. I was the RD, and you shot me for the crime of standing near you. You shot the geneticists without a word. You never said "Hey RD, tell your geneticists to stop handing out hulk". The geneticist even announced he was going to have hulk available in advance. You could have asked me to stop them, you could have warned the captain, you could have told the AI to power down genetics, but nope. Instead, you just walked into medbay and started lasering everybody into crit without a word, guilty or innocent. The worst a hulk did was break a window, and you decide that means it's genocide time. There was no "threat". If these hulks were killing people it'd be a different story, but even then that doesn't call for indiscriminate slaughter. There were a million ways to solve the situation peacefully even with the armory being eaten, and instead you chose the single shittiest option. It didn't matter what people were doing there. If they were anywhere near genetics, you shot lethals at them.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheWulfe » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:15 am #138828

Luke Cox wrote:I read you post, it's just irrelevant because you're flat out making shit up now. I was the RD, and you shot me for the crime of standing near you. You shot the geneticists without a word. You never said "Hey RD, tell your geneticists to stop handing out hulk". The geneticist even announced he was going to have hulk available in advance. You could have asked me to stop them, you could have warned the captain, you could have told the AI to power down genetics, but nope. Instead, you just walked into medbay and started lasering everybody into crit without a word, guilty or innocent. The worst a hulk did was break a window, and you decide that means it's genocide time. There was no "threat". If these hulks were killing people it'd be a different story, but even then that doesn't call for indiscriminate slaughter. There were a million ways to solve the situation peacefully even with the armory being eaten, and instead you chose the single shittiest option. It didn't matter what people were doing there. If they were anywhere near genetics, you shot lethals at them.

I think it's well established I shot lasers at people. I could've have done lot of things. I could have had chit chat, with a little back and forth and waste valuable time with people that may or may not be antag or just useless. (A good thing to note is a good chunk of people were already hulked). Or I can order a stop to the handing out of Hulk and nip the the Hulk Army Creation at the source. There were options, I choose mine and acted on it. It wasn't any less valid.

If you got shot for dancing around someone firing then tough deal, people get shot. All I know is maybe three or four people got put to crit, and not even killed. A geneticist and two hulks who attempted aggression, maybe the other geneticist I wanted neutralized.

What I try to prevent is stuff like
[06:33:37]GAME: Squiliam Fancyson/(Spa-Ghet-e) Messaged Newton Gang: gang members come to genetics for hulk.

Which was a round that happened the same day.

I did what I had to do for the overall safety of the station. Even a tip recommends ruthlessness. What am I supposed to do if it *was* a group antagonist there? Wade through ten hulks and get the shit beat out of me? My actions were right, traitors did get their hands on hulk, and I had justification of lethal force. The only thing I regret is acting on it by myself because it makes it look more like a 'lone wolf' griefing incident as opposed to ordering a raid and execution of hulks, which would have been cleaner from a roleplay perspective.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:26 am #138834

"They could've been traitors because there was a gang round earlier, so I'd better laser them all to the brink of death just to be safe"

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheWulfe » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:06 am #138840

Quit being a cuck, you know that's just an example.

As HoS I have to be especially aware of all antagonist types. I don't have to wait until a group antagonist gives all their buddies Hulk and completely run over the station for me to nip that in the bud. Even if by some miracle no antag got Hulk (they did), it still represent a now-massive threat that completely leaves the station at the mercy of a Hulking greytide rampage. Even without hindsight that's a massively stupid action for a non-antagonist geneticist to do. Double so if you know your uncontrolled cookie-style handouts will wind up on antagonists.
Last edited by TheWulfe on Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Tornadium » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:12 am #138841

Literally you can do nothing except take preventative action against hulks before it happens or you deal with the brig getting overran in seconds.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby oranges » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:37 am #138848

if you quote from the space law wiki page unironically you deserve a jobban from HoS and all security/authority related roles.

The only related policy is
- If hulks are smashing shit, you are free to use lethal force on them until they pass out and lose hulk after too much damage, at which point you can either take them to get healed or heal them yourself, and then brig/permabrig them.

Since you didn't do any of that and the hulks were not smashing shit on what grounds do you defend that behaviour?

It's just pure powergame period, you couldn't bear the thought of losing a round to some other people (god forbid you don't deny greentext) so you decided to fuck up a bunch of random players rounds, honestly are you CDB? Do us all a favour and never play here again.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Tornadium » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:49 am #138853

oranges wrote:if you quote from the space law wiki page unironically you deserve a jobban from HoS and all security/authority related roles.

The only related policy is
- If hulks are smashing shit, you are free to use lethal force on them until they pass out and lose hulk after too much damage, at which point you can either take them to get healed or heal them yourself, and then brig/permabrig them.

Since you didn't do any of that and the hulks were not smashing shit on what grounds do you defend that behaviour?

It's just pure powergame period, you couldn't bear the thought of losing a round to some other people (god forbid you don't deny greentext) so you decided to fuck up a bunch of random players rounds, honestly are you CDB? Do us all a favour and never play here again.


The hulks were smashing shit according to the logs.

Lots of HNGGGGGG.

It's hardly powergaming to take the only method of stopping mass hulk spread when you know damn right that if half the station gets hulked you are fucked and there is nothing you can do about it.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby capi duffman » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:21 pm #138864

It is powergaming, and by your reasoning about gangs and revs, metagaming too.
You didn't shoot dead the people at genetics because the hulks were being shits, but because you wanted to prevent a rev/gang uprising lacking any proof of it.

If instead to going on a shooting spree, you had asked the AI to track the hulks smashing things on radio, and had detained THOSE before putting a stop to the geneticist, no one would be minding your behaviour, but after reading your reasoning, you're no better than the engineer that locks the emitters "just in case", or the AI that bolts the airlocks, because it gets cucked by syndieborgs when it's time for ops.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Shaps-cloud » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:02 pm #138867

How do you detain something that can break walls
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby capi duffman » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:10 pm #138878

Shaps wrote:How do you detain something that can break walls

Shooting them, of course, but you may heal them after that, instead of leaving them to rot. Brig them or perma'd them depenfing on what they did.

Attacking hulks isn't wrong, but he attacked the wrong people and left them to die.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby MMMiracles » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:37 pm #138883

I mean c'mon though handing out free hulk to the entire crew is literally asking for shit to happen.

I mean he could of taken a better approach than just pure lasers but seriously fuck genetics if they insist on giving every grayshirt and their mother free punchy-fists that break everything.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby J_Madison » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:44 pm #138886

MMMiracles wrote:I mean he could of taken a better approach than just pure lasers

Not on /tg/ code current there isn't since disabler change.
Syringe gun chloral and mutadone is not a better approach.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheNightingale » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:48 pm #138921

Mutadone syringe guns work just fine unless they have syringeproof gear... then again, so does pretty much anything but going Postal on the entire Genetics subdepartment.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:20 pm #138927

He only lasered like one or two actual hulks. His first targets were the human geneticists. The "smashing shit" was one window. He could have stopped it peacefully easily for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but he went out of his way to murderbone

PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:09 pm.
Reason: You aren't even involved in this at all come on

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby NikNakFlak » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:10 pm #138939

Quit posting "what ifs" come on guys
REDACTED
pm for deets

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby J_Madison » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:12 pm #138940

Luke Cox wrote:He only lasered like one or two actual hulks. His first targets were the human geneticists. The "smashing shit" was one window. He could have stopped it peacefully easily for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but he went out of his way to murderbone

You have no idea if someone has a hulk SE or not. For all you know, he could pop it and kill you.

TheNightingale wrote:Mutadone syringe guns work just fine unless they have syringeproof gear... then again, so does pretty much anything but going Postal on the entire Genetics subdepartment.

trust me by the time you can get syringe guns and syringes full of mutadone it's too late.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:48 pm #138953

So I should always bring out lethals instantly because they might possibly have something dangerous? Got it.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby MMMiracles » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:10 pm #138978

What if we remove hulk then this would of never happened.

Remove hulk 2015 (theres still time)

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:28 pm #138981

J_Madison wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:He only lasered like one or two actual hulks. His first targets were the human geneticists. The "smashing shit" was one window. He could have stopped it peacefully easily for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but he went out of his way to murderbone

You have no idea if someone has a hulk SE or not. For all you know, he could pop it and kill you.

TheNightingale wrote:Mutadone syringe guns work just fine unless they have syringeproof gear... then again, so does pretty much anything but going Postal on the entire Genetics subdepartment.

trust me by the time you can get syringe guns and syringes full of mutadone it's too late.


It is never okay to murder multiple crew because they could have some form of weapon.
"That assistant breaking a window could be a traitorling with a holoparasite and a revolver, better combat shotgun him to prevent harm to myself! As justification a janitor was seen with an esword on the other side of the station and last round an assistanr had a revolver""
Obviously that's taken to the extreme, but it's the same idea.

"X could have Y and be antag X because I saw Z do A last round and he was antag B, so I should laser them, their coworker, their departmental head, and all bystanders"
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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby TheWulfe » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:14 am #139007

You forget that Hulk is already a powerful weapon in and of itself, probably more dangerous than any weapon on the station.

What do you think the greytiders and traitors are going to do once they have their Hulk. Sit in a bar being green? This server base? Or immediately turn the station into a shitshow with no one to control the now-everyone-is-Hulks? Preventative action is still my justification, and I don't wait for stations to go to shit because a Hulked out crew WILL make the station go to shit.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:04 am #139023

TheWulfe wrote:You forget that Hulk is already a powerful weapon in and of itself, probably more dangerous than any weapon on the station.

What do you think the greytiders and traitors are going to do once they have their Hulk. Sit in a bar being green? This server base? Or immediately turn the station into a shitshow with no one to control the now-everyone-is-Hulks? Preventative action is still my justification, and I don't wait for stations to go to shit because a Hulked out crew WILL make the station go to shit.

There's a difference between arresting the geneticists and shutting down genetics, and lasering non-hulked geneticists and random bystanders into crit.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby J_Madison » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:26 am #139030

yeah and considering hulk was given away freely, all it would take is a "random bystander" and a "non-hulk geneticist" to slip a pocketable syringe into themselves and completely slaughter sec for "self defense".

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby Zilenan91 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:31 am #139032

All of this could be solved by removing Hulk.

No really. Hulk creates so so many problems both in balance and in how people treat it.

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Re: August Talon: Murderbones genetics as HoS

Postby NikNakFlak » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:11 am #139045

That's needless in this FNR. Most everything in this FNR is needless opinion garbage. Wulfe was already given a note for this and the circumstances surrounding it haven't changed a bit, nothing was brought to light that Irish didn't already look into. Closing this.
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