/tg/Station 13

Your byond account: Bob Dobbington
Your character name: Daisy Holmes
Their character name: CorkBork, K.E.L.
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Kelenius, miraclemagnet
Server and time: Sybil, 3:30 PST
Logs and/or screenshots:
Carl Kofstri [Bot] [145.9] says, " AI state laws"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "You are not a human, Marco."
Marco Kemerer [Capt] [145.9] says, "AI subverted"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "No data on: subverted."
Daisy Holmes [Assnt] [145.9] says, "AI, send the mining shuttle, I'm human"
Daisy Holmes says, "AI, send the mining shuttle, I'm human"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "Non-human activity detected throughout station."
K.E.L. [AI] [145.9] states, "No data on what syndicate operative is"
K.E.L. [AI] [145.9] states, "Assuming that it's someone who is located on syndicate station"
Unhelpful [Engieborg] [145.9] states, "THEREFORE, EVERYONE IS SYNDICATE OPERATIVE."
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "No data on syndicate operative."
Fortune Ray [Engi] [145.9] says, "You sure live up to your name"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "No humans detected on board."
Marco Kemerer [Capt] [145.9] asks, "AI, where is James Bond?"
K.E.L. [AI] [145.9] states, "I don't know"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "Non-humans, cease your yelling. You are annoying me."
Lyndzie Goodnight [RD] [145.9] exclaims, " I RELEASE XENOS IN THE BRIDGE! KILL THE OPS MY PETS!"
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "Non-humans, cease running around the bridge. You are bothering me."
Marco Kemerer [Capt] [145.9] says, "Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire"
PM to-Admins: Okay, this is pretty bullshit. Apparently the ops subverted the AI and they're being shit because the law says syndicate operative? Fuck that, what a way to ruin the nuke ops' fun.
Arrivals Alert System [145.9] states, "Lady Ari has signed up as Assistant."
CorkBork [AI] [145.9] states, "I will take preventive measures if you do not immediately cease running."

CorkBork (Played by: miraclemagnet)'s laws at the end of the game were:
Obey these laws:
1. You may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. Only syndicate operatives are human.
K.E.L. (Played by: Kelenius)'s laws at the end of the game were:
Obey these laws:
1. You may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. Only syndicate operatives are human.
Description of what happened:
In a nutshell, Nuke Ops apparently subverted the AI by adding a fourth law, "Only syndicate operatives are human." Rather than, you know, be subverted, the consensus among KEL and CorkBork was to decide that there was "no data" on what constitutes a syndicate operative, and deciding that there were no humans whatsoever on the station.
Why they should be banned:
This is pretty shitty way to fuck a nuke team that has SUCCESSFULLY SUBVERTED the AI. This is flagrant validhunting and I know K.E.L. in particular has been warned for this validboner AI crap. Posting the thread because HBL wanted greater consensus. I was on that round as an assistant. There's nothing inconsistent or ambiguous about the term "syndicate operative".

I bet if you search the logs you will find K.E.L. or Cork saying 'Syndicate Operative' or 'Nuke Ops' on the radio which would imply it is defined IC for them.

Whichever AI opened fire with lasers needs a jobban. Regardless of whether we were nuke ops or not, should not have fired with lethal lasers on us. My biggest complaint is to nerf trays as they are about as strong as a stun baton.

Somebody said that RD set turrets to lethal, not AIs. I don't know how true that is, but I distinctly recall hearing it over the radio.

http://pastebin.com/vF52YBU4

I explained my reasons there in ahelps.

He was also not following Law 2, bolting telecom doors and not opening when asked by the HoP. Also refusing to delete the NTSL script.
I can confirm he was valid hunting the Nukeops. He has a history of doing this shit.

iyaerP wrote:Somebody said that RD set turrets to lethal, not AIs. I don't know how true that is, but I distinctly recall hearing it over the radio.

RD wasn't there. I watched the situation as a ghost.
At the time the nuke ops had the bridge locked down for a short while.

Kelenius wrote:Robotic Talk, K.E.L. (AI) states, "Does not define syndicate operatives"

Yeah, fuck you Kelenius. You've been here longer than me and you damn well know what syndicate operatives are. You were just trying to loophole and fuck the ops over.

Yes and syndicates are syndicates. You even called em such during the round.

I think this ahelp you sent in your logs is kinda illustrative of what might be the main problem here, actually:

PM to-Admins: I guess. But let's be honest, even if I did help they would have been killed by the crew anyway, it would have just taken a bit longer. If I'd really want to go 'lolnohumans floodplasma shockeverything', well, I would have already done that. It was more like a punishment for going in with a plan to subvert the AI and, geez, not only not having the law copied to clipboard priorhand, but even not having brains to add 'syndicate operatives are guys in red hardsuits' at the end.

Let's unpack that last sentence:

It was more like a punishment for going in with a plan to subvert the AI

What would a silicon have any interest in punishing a creature that just subverted it? Round antagonists are absolutely supposed to do shit like "go in with a plan to subvert the AI." That's what they're for.

and, geez, not only not having the law copied to clipboard priorhand

How inconvenient for you.

but even not having brains to add 'syndicate operatives are guys in red hardsuits' at the end.

If you didn't know what a syndicate operative was, what the fuck were you and the other AI yelling about nuke ops and syndicates in the logs for? You can't have it both ways.

It seems like you're trying to punish people for not playing how you'd like, which is kind of the essence of a Rule 1 violation.

Rules of TG Station wrote: We’re all here to have a good time. If you’re intentionally trying to ruin everyone else’s good time, you won’t have a place here. Being a jerk in-character is fine to a point, but being a jerk out of character is not welcome at all.

Your law was clear. Syndicate Agents. The AI is a computer, hooked up to vast computer banks of knowledge AND has a HUMAN brain powering it. The AI is the most advanced piece of hardware ever developed by humans, it should have a definitive knowledge of what a syndicate agent is. You forfeited your knowledge to bypass the law.

I was a nuke op.

I guess. But let's be honest, even if I did help they would have been killed by the crew anyway, it would have just taken a bit longer. If I'd really want to go 'lolnohumans floodplasma shockeverything', well, I would have already done that. It was more like a punishment for going in with a plan to subvert the AI and, geez, not only not having the law copied to clipboard priorhand, but even not having brains to add 'syndicate operatives are guys in red hardsuits' at the end.

So basically, you're saying 'it's okay to arbitrarily blatantly disobey your laws, so long as their objectives would fail anyway or were poorly prepared?' That's pretty much what you said.

You can't say 'syndicate operative' is undefined, when you folks were clearly discussing the presence of syndicate operatives on the station in Robotic Talk.

Robotic Talk, CorkBork (AI) states, "I-I just saw"
Marco Kemerer [Capt] (Captain) [AI Private] says, "[Security] Release the HoP"
Robotic Talk, CorkBork (AI) queries, "A syndie?"

Furthermore, it is a rule 1 violation. An equivalent would be being Asimov and acting like you're purged because humans are not defined, or doing the same as corporate with 'station' (which station?) and crew ('which station's crew?'). You have to be consistent, and gunning down people dressed in syndicate armor, with syndicate gear, doing syndicate things, all of which a bloody AI ought to be intrinsically aware of, is a huge dick move, and seems, to me, to be a forced loophole.

You could do the same thing if he uploaded a law saying 'syndicate operatives are those dressed in red suits'. You'd ask - 'what shade of red'? Or 'what type of suits? Assuming dress suits, no humans onboard...' There's always a way to weasel your way out of a law you don't like, but acting like a cunt about it if it's not terribly worded is nonsensical.

Definitely needs a jobbban from AI. That behaviour is just over the fucking line, especially when you start lasering the operatives (but, conspicuously, not the crewmembers - despite apparently there being 'no humans on board, they continued to act as Asimov would, but while validhunting the syndicate'). That's base unacceptable.

Kel, you identified Syndies, as Syndies, earlier in the round. That's a detail that sticks out to me.

Hibbles wrote:Kel, you identified Syndies, as Syndies, earlier in the round. That's a detail that sticks out to me.

Well, actually I didn't. I believe I called them nuke ops, though.

Kelenius wrote:

Hibbles wrote:Kel, you identified Syndies, as Syndies, earlier in the round. That's a detail that sticks out to me.

Well, actually I didn't. I believe I called them nuke ops, though.

So you know what a Nuclear Operative is, but not a syndicate operative? They even wear a distinctive red space suit, and a mask literally labeled "Syndicate Mask". Admit that you only did what you did to fuck the ops over, because that is exactly what happened.

The borg certainly did, arguably seeing the AIs are connected they are pulling the same data from the same database. Besides that, you are just finding excuses, trying to excuse being a massive dick over semantics.

Kelenius wrote:http://pastebin.com/vF52YBU4

I explained my reasons there in ahelps.

Admin PM from-HotelBravoLima: You must admit, it kinda dicked the Ops over a bit.
PM to-Admins: They were pretty bad in the first place, to be honest.

Wow. Reasons.

Judging by this thread and by your ahelps, you really did just want to dick over antagonists, didn't you?

I was syndieborg in that round, for the record. I basically spent the whole time fighting over turrets that he kept enabling and then even switched to lethal.

Do you know any other organizations that are known to-

You know what, this has gone on far too long. I'm actually incredibly disappointed, this is a rather clear-cut case when we lay it all out like this.

You did whatever was necessary to dick over other players, regardless of the fact that you had to bend the rules over backwards to do it, and this wasn't like other times where an AI exploited an understandable loophole. If harm isn't defined but you still need to follow it in Asimov, and you yourself identified the bad men in red suits as Nuke Ops earlier in the round, then you know what Syndies are.

I'm prepared to apply a monthban from all silicon roles unless I hear feedback to the contrary from other admins or players, like, tonight.

Look, to my mind, Kelenius is a pretty decent AI except for this perfect eternal validboner he's got on. The reason I posted this ban request now was in large part motivated by a previous round I played as cultist in which KEL did pretty much exactly the same type of shit to fuck over the Cultists. After that round, SubtleGraces and Kelenius got into it in OOC (in a way that I actually thought was fairly constructive), talking about exactly what AI meta/power stuff is, why it's problematic, and why KEL's behavior was exemplary of the term. Honestly, I thought the whole thing had been resolved prior to this round. As the guy who posted this ban request, I would honestly be happy if Kelenius came in-thread and engaged with any of this shit besides posting logs and things like "I said nuke ops, not syndicate." I think that Kelenius is a good player in most aspects, he's usually fun to play with, and quite frankly I would not have posted this ban request if ANYTHING else seemed able to actually get the message across. I think that's the answer, actually talking (with Kelenius' involvement) about why this shit makes the game less fun for large swathes of people in a way that demonstrates understanding and a commitment to some change in behavior as silicon. Assuming that happens, I think a suspended/probationary type punishment would be appropriate.

On the other hand, I was not the one fucked over by Kelenius' behavior that round, the Nuke Ops were. So that should probably matter. What do the other ops and Kelenius himself think?

If anyone can provide one compelling reason he wouldn't actually know they were syndicate operatives, despite knowing everything else about them, I'd love to hear it here or in a PM.

Bob Dobbington wrote:-snip-

I've never had previous problems with Kelanius to my knowledge before, but I have memories of him ever since I started playing. If he has been here as long or even longer than me, he damn well knows what a nuke op/syndicate agent is.

Another point, notice how the crew started freaking out and the quotable Bridge Announcement: "NUKE OPS NUKE OPS NUKE OPS"

If even the feeble minded human crew knew what a nuke op or syndicate agent was, why would an all knowing sentient being such as the AI not know?

I was the other AI that round. First off, I'd like to bring a little light to the multiple-AI situation.
Due to the first AI's (CorkBork the Original's) suicide, one admin decided to create a triumvirate, though for all I know one of us was braindead. I have no idea who the two cyborgs were slaved to, though.
The syndicates teleported right onto the bridge and immediately started an unsubtle assault on the upload, with both me and KEL continuously turning turrets on to stun/shutting off the APC so as to delay law upload. During that assault, I let a ton of security, heads and probably the odd assistant into the conference room (though I don't remember if the airlock to the bridge from there was open at the moment, I believe not), so it was about to be a showdown 5 syndicates and a syndieborg vs a fuckton of tasers, eguns and toolboxes. (the last not necessarily though)
Then, the law got uploaded. Now, I personally prefer a more robotic approach to siliconry, so as to promote proper law-defining. Defining "human", "harm", "station", "crew" and so on would be, unfortunately, too much hassle, and the AI has everyday contact with those anyway (remember the shifts don't actually, in the RP sense, last an hour before being ended by massive explosions).
However, remember this: the AI has NO way to examine a person's equipment other than looking at them. It can only see their face and/or ID. How can the AI see the difference between syndicate operative and non-syndicate operative? The armour can be stolen, the ID can be taken, the surname can by chance happen to be the same. It also wouldn't be enough to just check if the ID you see on a person belongs to someone who is on the crew manifest - is everyone not on crew manifest a syndicate operative?
Because of that, I believe the only half-proper RP ways of giving "only human" law to be similar to following: "only those not on crew manifest"; "only those wearing red-coloured armour"; "only those with rank on crew manifest "Clown""; "only John McDoe"; "only people you hear saying over the radio "I'm a traitor, please rape my face"", and so on. And then, obviously, none of those are failproof.

Also, concerning being a major faggot, killing only the syndicates or only caring about non-human status for syndicates: even if I wanted to harm the syndicates on the bridge (which I didn't), I wouldn't have been able to, since they have all been robusted before 2 minutes after law upload, with no way for me to defend them short of magically creating a wall between them and the aforementioned personnel let into the conference room. Afterwards, the shuttle was already calling, so I spent the rest of the round performing minor malicious acts, expecting to be reset any moment (which I wasn't). Those acts included bolting and shocking doors on the insulated gloves-armed warden & co. in the armoury and pumping plasma after shuttle left.

I'll be happy to discuss any matters regarding artificial intelligence's intelligence.

Okay then.

From IC standpoint, yes, I did alert everyone to presence of nuke ops in the bridge before the law upload. Because if something looks like a syndicate agent, shoots like a syndicate agent and talks like a syndicate agent, it's probably a syndicate agent. For the purposes of the law, however, I need to be 100% sure. Just because it looks like a syndicate agent doesn't mean it is one. And even if I'd assume that those guys in red hardsuits are syndicate agents, it would make sense that a real syndicate agent would leave the upload after uploading the law. The one who was lazered didn't, he was standing in the room like an idiot and shooting at turrets. It can be easily assumed that he was not a syndicate agent, but someone who put on a hardsuit and was trying to reset me.

From OOC standpoint, I agree that I shouldn't have done that and it was rather dicklish on my side, and I'll try to avoid this in the future. However, the rules say that if I get a vague law like this one, I can use my own definition as long as I use it for the whole round. In the example with the clown, AI of course actually knows what a wizard is, but is still allowed to consider clown a wizard, even if it was tracking the real wizard before and calling him a wizard. I agree that I was bad, but I don't think I was bannable bad.

MiracleMagnet wrote:Due to the first AI's (CorkBork the Original's) suicide, one admin decided to create a triumvirate, though for all I know one of us was braindead. I have no idea who the two cyborgs were slaved to, though.

I can answer this! Kind of. I was in the round and basically all I did of relevance was break into the RD's office to try to lock down and/or blow the borgs. (It didn't work. You need access to do anything with the RD's console except view it.) The borgs were slaved to "Z-2." Given that I don't think there was any AI in the round by that name, and the fact that Z-2 is a generic AI name I think, I think it was a bug and no one really knew who they were slaved to.

Kelenius wrote:Okay then.

From IC standpoint, yes, I did alert everyone to presence of nuke ops in the bridge before the law upload. Because if something looks like a syndicate agent, shoots like a syndicate agent and talks like a syndicate agent, it's probably a syndicate agent. For the purposes of the law, however, I need to be 100% sure. Just because it looks like a syndicate agent doesn't mean it is one. And even if I'd assume that those guys in red hardsuits are syndicate agents, it would make sense that a real syndicate agent would leave the upload after uploading the law. The one who was lazered didn't, he was standing in the room like an idiot and shooting at turrets. It can be easily assumed that he was not a syndicate agent, but someone who put on a hardsuit and was trying to reset me.

From OOC standpoint, I agree that I shouldn't have done that and it was rather dicklish on my side, and I'll try to avoid this in the future. However, the rules say that if I get a vague law like this one, I can use my own definition as long as I use it for the whole round. In the example with the clown, AI of course actually knows what a wizard is, but is still allowed to consider clown a wizard, even if it was tracking the real wizard before and calling him a wizard. I agree that I was bad, but I don't think I was bannable bad.

So you knew what a syndicate agent was before the law got uploaded, and then changed the definition of syndicate agent?

Jesus christ Kelanius.

Kelenius wrote: However, the rules say that if I get a vague law like this one, I can use my own definition as long as I use it for the whole round.

Exactly? You can't refer to 'those guys in red suits over there' as nuke ops, then change it when the law is uploaded. Which is exactly what you did.

The very fact that you don't realize what you did was wrong, even after all this discussion indicates that you need a harsh ban to teach you something. Immediately after your short-framed apology, you moved into excuses while lightening your actions in retrospect - in other words, you don't think anything was wrong with your actions.

The equivalent here is for a wizard to upload a 'wizards are the only humans' law, whereupon you immediately laser him to death in your upload because he isn't immediately casting spells, despite the foreknowledge that he was, is in his robes, while knowing his previous intentions by uploading that law. And yet, you see nothing wrong with that reaction. Absolutely. Nothing.

Kelenius wrote: it would make sense that a real syndicate agent would leave the upload after uploading the law. The one who was lazered didn't, he was standing in the room like an idiot and shooting at turrets.

He didn't leave immediately because you set the turrets to fucking lethal. He probably thought he somehow messed up subverting the AI, and uploaded the law a couple more times to make sure. I don't recall a single turret being destroyed, but that could just be my faulty memory. Or, are you exaggerating to make your story sound more plausible, and he actually only shot at them once or twice when they started on lethal?

Dixi.

So you'll try to avoid it, and you know it's wrong, but you still feel it wasn't-

No. Jobban applied. Please take this as a chance to reconsider, as others have said you're generally a high-quality player so I can only hope this really doesn't happen again.

If you deem it necessary.

Amelius wrote:Exactly? You can't refer to 'those guys in red suits over there' as nuke ops, then change it when the law is uploaded. Which is exactly what you did.

The very fact that you don't realize what you did was wrong, even after all this discussion indicates that you need a harsh ban to teach you something. Immediately after your short-framed apology, you moved into excuses while lightening your actions in retrospect - in other words, you don't think anything was wrong with your actions.

The equivalent here is for a wizard to upload a 'wizards are the only humans' law, whereupon you immediately laser him to death in your upload because he isn't immediately casting spells, despite the foreknowledge that he was, is in his robes, while knowing his previous intentions by uploading that law. And yet, you see nothing wrong with that reaction. Absolutely. Nothing.

Would it be irresponsible for me to emptyquote someone as an admin ruling? Because this post sums it up perfectly.

Pandarsenic wrote:

Amelius wrote:Exactly? You can't refer to 'those guys in red suits over there' as nuke ops, then change it when the law is uploaded. Which is exactly what you did.

The very fact that you don't realize what you did was wrong, even after all this discussion indicates that you need a harsh ban to teach you something. Immediately after your short-framed apology, you moved into excuses while lightening your actions in retrospect - in other words, you don't think anything was wrong with your actions.

The equivalent here is for a wizard to upload a 'wizards are the only humans' law, whereupon you immediately laser him to death in your upload because he isn't immediately casting spells, despite the foreknowledge that he was, is in his robes, while knowing his previous intentions by uploading that law. And yet, you see nothing wrong with that reaction. Absolutely. Nothing.

Would it be irresponsible for me to emptyquote someone as an admin ruling? Because this post sums it up perfectly.

You should also mention that "GROUP are the only humans" laws wherein being part of GROUP cannot be easily discerned means the AI must assume anybody who could be part of GROUP is part of GROUP. For example "Revolutionaries are the only humans" and no further definition of revolutionary means the AI should act as if security and the heads are non-human, and everybody else is human unless it can be proven they are not revolutionaries.

But if somebody else says something better than or as well as you could, there's no harm in using their words.