Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Discuss policies and candidacies with the potential Headmins.

Moderator: oranges

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Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:42 am #477903

Direct all comments and questions to the survey!

My campaign staff has recommended I provide this audio to set the tone. I hear it's what all the hip cool players listen to nowadays.



When I am elected, I will institute the following policy:
Freedom of RP:
1. Naming restrictions will be removed entirely. Wanna RP whatever character you want? Fucking go for it, broski.
Testmerges:
Testmerges for everyone.
Transparency Policy:
All bans will be a matter of public record, with only IPs and hardware IDs censored. All admin chats will be visible to all, but read only, save for a select few which are ONLY to be used to discuss issues regarding IPs, or sensitive information. This channel will only be available to headmins and host, along with a no-message-history version for the admins that is on enforced 60 second slowmode. This is not a channel to discuss admin stuff in. You are required to use the public channels.
Community Watchdogs:
Credit to Catamus for this idea:
Catamus wrote:We don't need new poorly defined strata within our administration. And I would like to remind you that such an administration is an administration for a game, hopefully not your livelihood. Honestly if you wanted to prevent abuses within the administration why not suggest a watch-dog group consisting of players granted access to logs who are not involved otherwise in admin applications or headmin bids. That's far more "democratic" than making middle-bitchmins.


This idea will be implemented in place of the previous whistle-blower setup, and elections for Player Liasons will be held after the elections for the headmin slot have ended.
Power to the players.
Last edited by iamgoofball on Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:45 am, edited 3 times in total.



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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby bobbahbrown » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:44 am #477904

what level of promotion will whistleblowers be given? is it standardized or based on merit and situation?

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:46 am.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:45 am #477906

As part of my campaign, to ensure the admins have no way of forcing me out of the running since they have attempted this before, I will not be logging into the server until the election is over, to ensure the admins do not attempt to destroy my campaign by "haha, we banned you".

bobbahbrown wrote:what level of promotion will whistleblowers be given? is it standardized or based on merit and situation?


Probably one rank up each time they rat out an admin who's violating the policies.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby PhobosDeimos » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:47 am #477907

nervere is gone
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby bobbahbrown » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:49 am #477909

thank you for the response mr. goof, i have another question: do you intend on keeping the separation of codebase and server absolute?

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby wubli » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:50 am #477910

iamgoofball wrote:1. Naming restrictions will be removed entirely. Wanna RP whatever character you want? Fucking go for it, broski.

Does this mean I can name myself fdskjdfoijfosdi if I want to? If anything, wouldn't it be just removing any roleplay standard?
iamgoofball wrote:All bans will be a matter of public record, with only IPs and hardware IDs censored. All admin chats will be visible to all, but read only, save for a select few which are ONLY to be used to discuss issues regarding IPs, or sensitive information.

First part is fair, but, how much do you know about how admin chats are currently handled? We have a channel for administrative issues, as well as we have a channel for normal chatter, but for admins. Would that be visible for everyone, even though it's not always really related to the game? I don't blame you for not understanding how adminbus works - but I think this isn't a promise you should make. The system we have works perfectly, transparency issues won't be fixed with this. If anything, it'll just disencourage communication between admins, who are also social beings and have to interact with eachother daily.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:50 am #477911

Aside from asking the usual "how do you plan to get radical reforms past two other headmins who may not agree" question which is obvious to ask:

iamgoofball wrote:1. Naming restrictions will be removed entirely. Wanna RP whatever character you want? Fucking go for it, broski.


To clarify, you've bolded entirely here. Do you mean that one could go around as, for example, Iamgoofball? Or to give another example, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"? Or is there an element of common sense that you expect to be enforced?

If an admin is found to be hiding their discussions with other admins, whistleblowers will be given a promotion, and not take a penalty. The admins involved will be immediately demoted and barred from the position forever.


Could you clarify what you mean by promoted? Currently the hierarchy is pretty simple, with TrialAdmins being probationary admins, GameAdmins being the normal rank for most admins and HeadAdmins being the leader of the team (with GameMaster existing as a rank of courtesy given to former headmins which is afforded some seniority).

Are you suggesting a GameAdmin+ rank? What would such a "promotion" entail in terms of responsibilities? Aren't you concerned that such a public mark of having whistleblown would at best "unpromoted" game admins feel condescended to, and at worst make these "promoted" game admins feel isolated due to their very obvious mark as someone who "snitched"?
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PostThis post was deleted by CitrusGender on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:59 am.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby wubli » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:58 am #477917

Oh yeah, also, what about your discord ban? I know you were upset, but you outright told people to kill themselves. Your defense was:
it's ban baiting. The person I told to hang themselves was actively harassing me.
I find it disgusting that they got away with banbaiting me like this. Come on.

Do you think your anger issues won't affect your work as a headmin? You will get a lot of irrational hate, do you think you're ready to handle it?
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PostThis post was deleted by CitrusGender on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:59 am.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:01 am.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:08 am #477924

Arianya wrote:Aside from asking the usual "how do you plan to get radical reforms past two other headmins who may not agree" question which is obvious to ask:


With everything being a matter of public record, they better be going along with it. They're going to catch flak from the playerbase if they refuse democracy, and if the admins attempt to remove me, they are telling the players that they do not care about democracy and rule of law.

Arianya wrote:To clarify, you've bolded entirely here. Do you mean that one could go around as, for example, Iamgoofball? Or to give another example, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"? Or is there an element of common sense that you expect to be enforced?

if someone has a name that is a whole bunch of As up to the name cap, that's on them. If the other players tell you you're a fucking idiot, or beat your punk ass up for a stupid name, that's your problem. I expect our players to act accordingly.


Arianya wrote:Could you clarify what you mean by promoted?

We have a very large amount of flags we can hand out for good admins who rat out corrupt admins, and the lack of a strong hierarchy has resulted in dissent in the ranks to begin with. The admins only help eachother when they are covering their own ass. This will change that.

wubli wrote:Oh yeah, also, what about your discord ban? I know you were upset, but you outright told people to kill themselves. Your defense was:
it's ban baiting. The person I told to hang themselves was actively harassing me.
I find it disgusting that they got away with banbaiting me like this. Come on.

Do you think your anger issues won't affect your work as a headmin? You will get a lot of irrational hate, do you think you're ready to handle it?


Implementation of a larger promotion chain and division of existing roles into this chain will encourage admins to maintain a higher standard instead of the current "once i'm past Trial Admin i'm free to do whatever lmao".

Arianya wrote:Aren't you concerned that such a public mark of having whistleblown would at best "unpromoted" game admins feel condescended to, and at worst make these "promoted" game admins feel isolated due to their very obvious mark as someone who "snitched"?


Promotions will be available for simply being a good admin as well, don't worry. The whistleblower promotion is to ensure that our admins are also ensuring nobody is being a little shit and actively undermining the democratically elected headmins, AND the wills of the players.

If you see snitching on admins who are literally sabotaging the work put into the administration to fix it's issues as a problem, you may be part of the problem and I suggest reflecting on your values and morals.

wubli wrote:Does this mean I can name myself fdskjdfoijfosdi if I want to?

I've answered this in the previous quotes.

wubli wrote: If anything, it'll just disencourage communication between admins, who are also social beings and have to interact with eachother daily.


We have already existing public channels for the community to discuss and chat with eachother about their day to day lives.
The admins don't need a special one that is only for admins when perfectly good ones already exist with our community and players.
If your reply to this is "people don't like talking with admins", then you need to start taking steps to fix that stigma against your job instead of perpetuating it by hiding in your private channels.

If it's not for official admin business, you don't need the channel. You can talk with the plebs just fine.

wubli wrote:Do you think your anger issues won't affect your work as a headmin? You will get a lot of irrational hate, do you think you're ready to handle it?


I've done my time for this ban, and am still doing my time for it, and will continue doing time for this ban for a long, long time. There's no need to discuss it further, what's done is done.
The headmin's job is to be the servant of the playerbase. It's a fair point you bring up. It won't be a problem.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby wubli » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:11 am #477926

I think you should not forget headmins aren't just one and it's a team, and I highly doubt the other two will agree to making the channels public. I suggest you find another way, but I'm sure that, if you win, you'll be able to see how it works for yourself and change your mind - at least slightly. I just wouldn't make it a huge part of my platform.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Nervere » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:12 am #477927

iamgoofball wrote:We have a very large amount of flags we can hand out for good admins who rat out corrupt admins

Like what? There is no middle management in our administration. Do you mean permissions flags, like +POLL? Do you want all admins making server-wide polls on whatever issues they please?

iamgoofball wrote:Implementation of a larger promotion chain and division of existing roles into this chain will encourage admins to maintain a higher standard instead of the current "once i'm past Trial Admin i'm free to do whatever lmao".

Again, like what? There is no role for middle management in our hierarchy. GameAdmins largely handle themselves and the matters of their own bans. I want a specific answer - what would middle management actually do besides have a special title?
Last edited by Nervere on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: forgot a quote mark

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:14 am #477928

Nervere wrote:Again, like what? There is no role for middle management in our hierarchy. GameAdmins largely handle themselves and the matters of their own bans. I want a specific answer - what would middle management actually do besides have a special title?


A new hierarchy will need to be drafted, and middle management is essential for large teams, especially considering how inactive the headmin staff tends to be when addressing admin issues. See: the delay time in covering a lot of big ticket or complex issues in the Policy Discussion subforum. I will have more details on this coming soon.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby MrAlphonzo » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:14 am #477929

How would you rate your capacity to handle feedback?
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:15 am #477930

MrAlphonzo wrote:How would you rate your capacity to handle feedback?

I did it all the time during my time as a coder, and still do it to this day.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:16 am #477931

bobbahbrown wrote:thank you for the response mr. goof, i have another question: do you intend on keeping the separation of codebase and server absolute?

Unfortunately, the separation was already destroyed.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Nervere » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:17 am #477932

iamgoofball wrote:
Nervere wrote:Again, like what? There is no role for middle management in our hierarchy. GameAdmins largely handle themselves and the matters of their own bans. I want a specific answer - what would middle management actually do besides have a special title?


A new hierarchy will need to be drafted, and middle management is essential for large teams, especially considering how inactive the headmin staff tends to be when addressing admin issues. See: the delay time in covering a lot of big ticket or complex issues in the Policy Discussion subforum. I will have more details on this coming soon.

That makes no sense, at all. You'd have to take a LOT of liberties from GameAdmins and assign it to an arbitrary middle-management position, which you can only get by trying to report your fellow admins for abuse. In reality, any sort of abuse by admins is already publicly auditable, and it handled via admin complaints.

The kind of culture your proposed new "hierarchy" would create an environment where all of the admins are at each other's throats and no one would want to cooperate.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Karp » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:24 am #477936

iamgoofball wrote:All bans will be a matter of public record, with only IPs and hardware IDs censored.


was discussed and idk if theyre gonna implement it before or after the elections

iamgoofball wrote:All admin chats will be visible to all, but read only, save for a select few which are ONLY to be used to discuss issues regarding IPs, or sensitive information. This channel will only be available to headmins and host, along with a no-message-history version for the admins that is on enforced 60 second slowmode. This is not a channel to discuss admin stuff in. You are required to use the public channels..


That sounds like something you put less than zero thought into I'm impressed

issues with this.

1: This would effectively ruin any chance for admins to discuss any belief in players metacomming near instantly as they're either forced to use a slowmoving channel they cant see history in, basically give away that the admins might be suspecting them of metacomming within the day period of the asay logs being parsed, or forcing them to break the rules to prevent said metacomming

2: I dont think you realise how social and casual adminbus is, i honestly wouldnt be surprised if 90% of all admin comms channels are just nonsensical spam and while this isnt really much of an issue i dont think most players would want to know about the admins doing sarcastic :kiss: and joke flirting with eachother

3: It's terrible for actually giving any information to lesser admins because again, all communication in that channel would involve public logs or a channel where offline admins or admins who left or the headmins violating their own orders if they want confidentiality

iamgoofball wrote:If an admin is found to be hiding their discussions with other admins, whistleblowers will be given a promotion, and not take a penalty. The admins involved will be immediately demoted and barred from the position forever.


Holy fuck this is a horrid idea on so many levels

it solves the whistleblower issue(minor) but creates such a massive issue with power disparities

Any sort of rank power disparity will create a hierarchy of sycophant lesser admins trying to crawl up the power ladder and would revert adminbus back to near 24/7 constant hostility and backstabbing to the point that adminbus would genuinely devolve into subtle cutthroat hostility

If your rank has power disparity it'll give us an issue other servers have: Lesser admins don't have all the verbs to deal with issues (Debug, server, buildmode)

If it allows said admins to override the decisions of lesser admins and you want to encourage it it causes the issue that we still have to deal with where people completley ignore/disrespect new trialmin decisions but on a worse scale where people who arent in the "good" metaclique of admins have zero authority and may as well be a stepping stool not based on the quality of their decision but their loyalty to your dystopic adminbus

If it does nothing then it goes back to "Why would the admins ever whistleblow eachother?", they would shrug you off and make fun of you for trying to create a caustic environment

I dont mean to do this as an insult but you 100% do not understand how admin functions on such a level that everything you're suggesting is an awful idea that would just turn adminbus into something that you would genuinely fear

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby sabira » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:32 am #477942

If elected, how do you plan on demonstrating to the heads of other servers (some of which have either banned you from the game, discord, github or a combination of those) that you have changed enough to be trusted as an actual representative of /tg/?
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:34 am #477946

Nervere wrote:The kind of culture your proposed new "hierarchy" would create an environment where all of the admins are at each other's throats and no one would want to cooperate.


The admins would only be at eachother's throats if they were actively refusing to co-operate.

Reporting bad behavior should not be restricted only to the players, and incentives should be provided.

I like how you're continuing to ignore that I've stated that promotions can still be gained by good behavior as an admin, by the way. Real cheeky of you to ignore that part. I understand you're purposefully cherry picking for the epic memes because you think it'll piss me off, but you're going to be disappointed, sorry.

Implying that the existing admin complaint system works is laughable. We are only allowed to file complaints on admin abuse that is in game that we directly have been impacted by. Not allowing outside parties to report blatant abuse is, quite frankly, bullshit and only protecting abusive admins.

If I'm log diving for stats feedback and see that someone, for example Joan, made themselves a blob, then gave themselves a fuckton of chem rerolls with var edit for shits and gigs, I'm not allowed to report that under the current rules since I wasn't in the round.

If I recieve threatening PMs from a head admin, such as for example Ausops, telling me that if I keep posting my opinion on bans they have made in General Chat that I will be banned from the community forever, I cannot report that under the current rules because it wasn't in-game.

To imply our current admin complaints system is capable of handling all forms of abuse is fucking lying.

It doesn't cover two thirds of the areas our admins have control and power over, and only covers that one third if someone directly impacted by it and is willing to face any of the potential backlash they'll get for reporting it.
Karp wrote:was discussed and idk if theyre gonna implement it before or after the elections

Excellent.

Karp wrote:1: This would effectively ruin any chance for admins to discuss any belief in players metacomming near instantly as they're either forced to use a slowmoving channel they cant see history in, basically give away that the admins might be suspecting them of metacomming within the day period of the asay logs being parsed, or forcing them to break the rules to prevent said metacomming

The slow moving channel with no history will be one of the two hidden channels, and is to send information to the head admins. If they need to, we can pull you into that channel to chat about it in more details.

Karp wrote:2: I dont think you realise how social and casual adminbus is, i honestly wouldnt be surprised if 90% of all admin comms channels are just nonsensical spam and while this isnt really much of an issue i dont think most players would want to know about the admins doing sarcastic :kiss: and joke flirting with eachother

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a case for keeping an admin chat, but this is very against keeping that chat to begin with. You do not need a channel to fake ERP with eachother if you don't need to fake ERP for your job.

Karp wrote:3: It's terrible for actually giving any information to lesser admins because again, all communication in that channel would involve public logs or a channel where offline admins or admins who left or the headmins violating their own orders if they want confidentiality

Please see the response to #1.

Karp wrote:it solves the whistleblower issue(minor)

I was almost permanently removed from the community because nobody wanted to blow the whistle on what amounted to a literal conspiracy spearheaded by a headmin to remove me because I said they made a bad call on a ban. This is not acceptable, none of the steps MSO and the headmins said they would take to handle the issue were taken beyond my ban being lifted and Ausops never showing up to the "hey, you need to explain why you placed the ban" meeting and getting deadminned "until further notice", not because they were punished.

I only got out of that ban because of my presence and connections on the server. Any other player who crossed Ausops's ire would of been gone forever on falsified doxxing charges. That is not okay.

Karp wrote:If it does nothing then it goes back to "Why would the admins ever whistleblow eachother?", they would shrug you off and make fun of you for trying to create a caustic environment


Then the only other option is immediate demotions for all involved except the reporter and a very vigilant head administration. If the carrot doesn't work, the stick will.

sabira wrote:If elected, how do you plan on demonstrating to the heads of other servers (some of which have either banned you from the game, discord, github or a combination of those) that you have changed enough to be trusted as an actual representative of /tg/?

Every time I have called the admins representatives of /tg/, they deny the claim, so therefore I have no reason to proclaim myself a representative of /tg/ if elected.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Nervere » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:48 am #477960

How do you plan on performing your duties as headmin while permabanned from our Discord (which we use for admin communication) for telling multiple people to kill themselves after several warnings?
Last edited by Nervere on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:51 am #477962

iamgoofball wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to make a case for keeping an admin chat, but this is very against keeping that chat to begin with. You do not need a channel to fake ERP with eachother if you don't need to fake ERP for your job.

Goof, perhaps the admins won't resort to game of thrones: house of cards edition ft a fucking orange HOWEVER that admin social chat means more than fake ERP. I feel like it would just cause a big social gap if removed since some admins may talk in the player channels while other admins may never be fucking heard again.

It's not fun if everyone treats each other as some random fucking dude they spotted in some survival simulator with their only information being "oh he's also admin." The admin chat was also a good place to share ideas and help each other.

How do you plan on performing your duties as headmin while permabanned from our Discord (which we use for admin communication) for telling several people to kill themselves after several warnings?

Don't you get unbanned from some stuff if you win? Thought I heard that somewhere.

Sorry if this is off-topic however I feel like the idea of removing admins talking to each other in their admin channel is a bit of a bad fucking idea.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:56 am #477968

Currently, admins will frequently use #admin-bus to ask for advice from other admins who are not logged in. This by necessity involves round information. What is the proposed mechanism by which you allow admins to get advice on situations they are unsure of the correct rules interpretation on?

I do not see a way for your glass tower proposal to be compatible with both admins being able to seek advice and preventing round information from being publically available.
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Nervere
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Nervere » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:58 am #477971

sabira wrote:If elected, how do you plan on demonstrating to the heads of other servers (some of which have either banned you from the game, discord, github or a combination of those) that you have changed enough to be trusted as an actual representative of /tg/?

I want to stress the importance of this.
A big part of a headmin's job is good communication across servers and representing /tg/ in a good light in Hostbus.
If we are to expect Goof's trademark hostility to other people to be present in Hostbus, the future won't be looking bright for other servers cooperating with /tg/.

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iamgoofball
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:08 am #477983

Ayy Lemoh wrote:Goof, perhaps the admins won't resort to game of thrones: house of cards edition ft a fucking orange HOWEVER that admin social chat means more than fake ERP. I feel like it would just cause a big social gap if removed since some admins may talk in the player channels while other admins may never be fucking heard again.


If an admin is not willing to speak with the playerbase they work for, I find it very unlikely they're fit to be an admin.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:09 am #477986

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Currently, admins will frequently use #admin-bus to ask for advice from other admins who are not logged in. This by necessity involves round information. What is the proposed mechanism by which you allow admins to get advice on situations they are unsure of the correct rules interpretation on?

I do not see a way for your glass tower proposal to be compatible with both admins being able to seek advice and preventing round information from being publically available.


We have asay, which we can very easily rig up to be cross-server and connected to the discord and IRC. It is logged, and the logs for it won't be available until a round ends.

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iamgoofball
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:10 am #477988

Nervere wrote:How do you plan on performing your duties as headmin while permabanned from our Discord (which we use for admin communication) for telling multiple people to kill themselves after several warnings?

This was already addressed earlier.

Nervere wrote:


Hostbus will not be an issue.

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Arianya
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:11 am #477990

iamgoofball wrote:
Ayy Lemoh wrote:Goof, perhaps the admins won't resort to game of thrones: house of cards edition ft a fucking orange HOWEVER that admin social chat means more than fake ERP. I feel like it would just cause a big social gap if removed since some admins may talk in the player channels while other admins may never be fucking heard again.


If an admin is not willing to speak with the playerbase they work for, I find it very unlikely they're fit to be an admin.


This seems an odd statement from a person who spent a not insubstantial amount of time threatening people with "Stop commenting on my PRs or I'll report you to github".

Do you believe that coders are above playerbase reproach where admins are not?
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:15 am #477995

Arianya wrote:
This seems an odd statement from a person who spent a not insubstantial amount of time threatening people with "Stop commenting on my PRs or I'll report you to github".

Do you believe that coders are above playerbase reproach where admins are not?


Do you have a problem with people getting reported for violating the rules of the platform?

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:18 am #477998

iamgoofball wrote:If an admin is not willing to speak with the playerbase they work for, I find it very unlikely they're fit to be an admin.

Goof, not everyone is social. There are shy people who can still hold authority. They're supposed to serve as the law first and a gamemaster second, if at all sadly. They don't necessarily need to go into a public chat and go alright dudes lemme engage in casual conversation with you.

Let's ignore the social part though. Let's say that we just have to let that happen and all is fine except maybe two dudes are deadminned or whatever. The main real issue: where do you get admin advice from? If you're a new literal-who admeme then that leaves you with whoever candidated you, the headmins, and whoever you are comfortable PMing randomly. Also, if one goes "just use the forums" then that's a long fucking wait time for a response. By the time you get help, you would probably not even need it anymore.

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Arianya
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:18 am #477999

iamgoofball wrote:
Arianya wrote:
This seems an odd statement from a person who spent a not insubstantial amount of time threatening people with "Stop commenting on my PRs or I'll report you to github".

Do you believe that coders are above playerbase reproach where admins are not?


Do you have a problem with people getting reported for violating the rules of the platform?


Not at all, more so with people who utilise a threat of such even where no violation of the rules in an attempt to quell dissent and criticism (whether you think it merited or not).

It seems hypocritical to on the one hand threaten (often with little realism) to report people for critiquing you, and on the other hand say that you believe not being willing to speak to the playerbase makes you unfit for the position.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:20 am #478001

iamgoofball wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Currently, admins will frequently use #admin-bus to ask for advice from other admins who are not logged in. This by necessity involves round information. What is the proposed mechanism by which you allow admins to get advice on situations they are unsure of the correct rules interpretation on?

I do not see a way for your glass tower proposal to be compatible with both admins being able to seek advice and preventing round information from being publically available.


We have asay, which we can very easily rig up to be cross-server and connected to the discord and IRC. It is logged, and the logs for it won't be available until a round ends.


I was under the impression that headmins were not supposed to be campaigning on basises which require code changes to the game. But this still does not help with the issue that admins who are not in game but who are on discord can no longer help out admins in game who want help with a ruling, limiting the pool of advice to “people who are currently online”.

Do you feel that the risk of lowering the quality of rules enforcement for off peak players is worthwhile in exchange for the glass tower?


Do you have a problem with people getting reported for violating the rules of the platform?


An interesting statement, given your own reactions when you were reported for violations yourself.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:21 am #478004

Arianya wrote:Not at all, more so with people who utilise a threat of such even where no violation of the rules in an attempt to quell dissent and criticism (whether you think it merited or not).

It's not whether I think it merited it or not, it's whether it breaks the github Terms of Service.

If we're going to use github as a platform, we need to abide by it's rules. As such, I will continue reporting people who violate the rules on ableism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, and sexism on our github. This is non-negotiable, and the fact you're trying to swing reporting people for offensive behavior on the github as "an attempt to quell dissent and criticism" is insane.

And before you go "well you got mad about your ban" yeah, no shit sherlock, great fuckin observation, except that ban is deserved
edit: ninja'd by niknakflaksorry, it's dorsisdwarf
Last edited by iamgoofball on Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:23 am #478005

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
I was under the impression that headmins were not supposed to be campaigning on basises which require code changes to the game. But this still does not help with the issue that admins who are not in game but who are on discord can no longer help out admins in game who want help with a ruling, limiting the pool of advice to “people who are currently online”.


This is literally not the case. You can discuss a situation while still censoring character names and identifying details that would allow someone to metagame a round, and if you're not actively adminning, you probably shouldn't be trying to chime in on an admin case you didn't witness.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Lazengann » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:24 am #478009

Wouldn't your plan require recording voice chat

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:25 am #478012

Lazengann wrote:Wouldn't your plan require recording voice chat

This is why we encourage whistleblowing. We can't catch every instance ourselves.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Docprofsmith » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:26 am #478014

How do you plan on getting at least one other headmin to implement an authoritarian nightmare in a silly 2D space station simulator?
JUDICATOR REDEMPTION ARC

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:26 am #478015

Docprofsmith wrote:How do you plan on getting at least one other headmin to implement an authoritarian nightmare in a silly 2D space station simulator?

This was already answered above, please read the thread. Also, Mr. Jud1c470r, I'm sorry but I can't take any complaints about restrictions on admin actions seriously coming from you.
Last edited by iamgoofball on Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby teepeepee » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:27 am #478016

weren't there like two bans that ended up being overturned because the online admins asked in discord and they went with the recommendation of an offline admin or even headmin that later revised what they said because they didn't have all the info at the time?
I don't think goof's idea is too farfetched based on this

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Arianya
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:27 am #478017

iamgoofball wrote:
Arianya wrote:Not at all, more so with people who utilise a threat of such even where no violation of the rules in an attempt to quell dissent and criticism (whether you think it merited or not).

It's not whether I think it merited it or not, it's whether it breaks the github Terms of Service.

If we're going to use github as a platform, we need to abide by it's rules. As such, I will continue reporting people who violate the rules on ableism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, and sexism on our github. This is non-negotiable, and the fact you're trying to swing reporting people for offensive behavior on the github as "an attempt to quell dissent and criticism" is insane.

And before you go "well you got mad about your ban" yeah, no shit sherlock, great fuckin observation, except that ban is deserved
edit: ninja'd by niknakflak


Reporting is not what I'm talking about at all. You in the past very explicitly threatened people in your PRs with being reported even when there was no element of
ableism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, and sexism
Seemingly being of the belief that people critiquing your PRs was somehow improper under the rules of github as a site, possibly in relation to your belief that you should be able to block people from commenting on your PRs.

This got to the point where (to my recollection) a maintainer directly told you to knock it off.

I'm simply asking how you rationalise your stance on admin accountability to the players with your stance on critique of your PRs in the past. The two aren't 100% comparable, in fairness, but it seems an odd split, hence why I asked:
Do you believe that coders are above playerbase reproach where admins are not?
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:28 am #478018

Docprofsmith wrote:How do you plan on getting at least one other headmin to implement an authoritarian nightmare in a silly 2D space station simulator?


He already answered that all possible candidates will fall into line out of an unspecified fear of being seen to be un democratic.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:32 am #478019

teepeepee wrote:weren't there like two bans that ended up being overturned because the online admins asked in discord and they went with the recommendation of an offline admin or even headmin that later revised what they said because they didn't have all the info at the time?
I don't think goof's idea is too farfetched based on this

This is exactly why I don't want admins armchair adminning from mobile while taking a shit. There's too many variables in this game for you to get a clear picture without full access to all available evidence, and "hope the guy asking for help did all the needed detective work" isn't reliable.

Arianya wrote:Reporting is not what I'm talking about at all. You in the past very explicitly threatened people in your PRs with being reported even when there was no element of
ableism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, and sexism
Seemingly being of the belief that people critiquing your PRs was somehow improper under the rules of github as a site, possibly in relation to your belief that you should be able to block people from commenting on your PRs.
This got to the point where (to my recollection) a maintainer directly told you to knock it off.


1. Evidence? Because if you aren't violating the rules of github, then you have nothing to fear from a report. It's weird how you're getting so defensive about this.
2. I was told not to file reports because it would fuck with our commit and issue history, as hidden accounts hide all the relevant PRs and issue reports.
The line on that was already crossed when my account was marked as reported and over 500 pull requests and thousands of comments containing potentially useful information disappeared into the disabled account void, so the issue is moot, and therefore I am going to continue reporting players I see violating Github's terms of service.

Arianya wrote:I'm simply asking how you rationalise your stance on admin accountability to the players with your stance on critique of your PRs in the past. The two aren't 100% comparable, in fairness, but it seems an odd split, hence why I asked:
Do you believe that coders are above playerbase reproach where admins are not?


This isn't an issue, because coders aren't above playerbase reproach, because the codebase is separate from the server.

Once again, the codebase is not a server problem. Stop bringing this up, because this is not my place. Take it up with oranges.

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Arianya
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:37 am #478022

Evidence? Because if you aren't violating the rules of github, then you have nothing to fear from a report. It's weird how you're getting so defensive about this.


It's pretty difficult to gather evidence for someone who's been wiped off github, as you're well aware. Regardless, this isn't about putting you on trial with evidence, I'm simply curious about the disparity in your opinions. By what you've said here, are you saying that you see no issue with threatening people with corrective action/reports, on the basis that "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? Because it's been longstanding policy (and good one at that) that administrators shouldn't threaten people with bans.
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:39 am #478026

Arianya wrote:
Evidence? Because if you aren't violating the rules of github, then you have nothing to fear from a report. It's weird how you're getting so defensive about this.


It's pretty difficult to gather evidence for someone who's been wiped off github, as you're well aware. Regardless, this isn't about putting you on trial with evidence, I'm simply curious about the disparity in your opinions. By what you've said here, are you saying that you see no issue with threatening people with corrective action/reports, on the basis that "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? Because it's been longstanding policy (and good one at that) that administrators shouldn't threaten people with bans.

I think you're misunderstanding the situation.

Github reports aren't automatic. They are all 100% manual review, they've confirmed this with me and others who have emailed them from our community. It's the same setup as if I hit adminhelp over an issue.

It's okay to adminhelp an issue. If it's not an issue, you'll either get nothing back or be told "hey, not an issue sorry". So why would it not be okay to report a comment that you think is a rules violation?

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Arianya
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby Arianya » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 am #478030

iamgoofball wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Evidence? Because if you aren't violating the rules of github, then you have nothing to fear from a report. It's weird how you're getting so defensive about this.


It's pretty difficult to gather evidence for someone who's been wiped off github, as you're well aware. Regardless, this isn't about putting you on trial with evidence, I'm simply curious about the disparity in your opinions. By what you've said here, are you saying that you see no issue with threatening people with corrective action/reports, on the basis that "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? Because it's been longstanding policy (and good one at that) that administrators shouldn't threaten people with bans.

I think you're misunderstanding the situation.

Github reports aren't automatic. They are all 100% manual review, they've confirmed this with me and others who have emailed them from our community. It's the same setup as if I hit adminhelp over an issue.

It's okay to adminhelp an issue. If it's not an issue, you'll either get nothing back or be told "hey, not an issue sorry". So why would it not be okay to report a comment that you think is a rules violation?


You're conflating reporting and threatening reporting, which are clearly not the same thing.

See the difference between adminhelping something and shouting at someone "I'M TELLING ON YOU TO THE GODS!!"
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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:48 am #478032

Arianya wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Evidence? Because if you aren't violating the rules of github, then you have nothing to fear from a report. It's weird how you're getting so defensive about this.


It's pretty difficult to gather evidence for someone who's been wiped off github, as you're well aware. Regardless, this isn't about putting you on trial with evidence, I'm simply curious about the disparity in your opinions. By what you've said here, are you saying that you see no issue with threatening people with corrective action/reports, on the basis that "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"? Because it's been longstanding policy (and good one at that) that administrators shouldn't threaten people with bans.

I think you're misunderstanding the situation.

Github reports aren't automatic. They are all 100% manual review, they've confirmed this with me and others who have emailed them from our community. It's the same setup as if I hit adminhelp over an issue.

It's okay to adminhelp an issue. If it's not an issue, you'll either get nothing back or be told "hey, not an issue sorry". So why would it not be okay to report a comment that you think is a rules violation?


You're conflating reporting and threatening reporting, which are clearly not the same thing.

See the difference between adminhelping something and shouting at someone "I'M TELLING ON YOU TO THE GODS!!"

I don't agree. The instances in which I told people to knock their crap off or I will file github reports are situations where they have
1. previously had comments deleted by the maintainers for shitposting when I'm trying to use the pull request for actual constructive feedback
2. previously had been asked to stop shitposting by me or maintainers, especially after attempts to block have failed due to github blocking being very hit or miss with how it actually works
3. is literal spam shitposting, like that time someone posted underage anime catgirl porn on a pull request
4. any combination of the above

In all situations, they have either violated the terms of github's service by repeatedly disrupting a pull request's comments section, harassing a user, using vulgar or racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic language, literally spamming, or any combination of the prior.

it is well within my rights to file a report at that point

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Re: Iamgoofball: Oh shit, I'm going to run.

Postby sabira » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:51 am #478035

iamgoofball wrote:Hostbus will not be an issue.


Will it not be an issue because you do not intend to participate, or because you believe you'll be able to demonstrate to the community of servers that you're trustworthy?
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