[Deleted] Whisper - NikNakFlak

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NikNakFlak
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Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby NikNakFlak » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:34 pm #510056

Hi, I'm niknak
I mostly admin and play sybil. Currently, a pAI meme main named Trip.
In the past I played Silias Kemble for awhile and adminned quite a bit on bagil.
I also like to make sounds and Map, check out my thread in the coding section of the forum if you want.

I've been an admin for a long time and made my fair share of mistakes. From playing this game for so long, a lot has happened. I've burned out, played less, said dumb shit, got back into the game and played a fuck ton again, took another long break, went through the entirety of college and graduated, started playing a fuck ton again, and to this day there's still nothing like this game and I figured after all this time I'd throw my hat in one more time.


Why am I running:
I've never been overly satisfied with how things have been run and at the same time,
rarely has a headmin decision ever really affected how I administrate the game that much.
I think I can offer some changes and do some things differently that I think will be beneficial to the server.

TL;DR provided here
  • get appeals and complaints resolved faster again
    • game admins can handle retired admin appeals again
  • more events involving custom maps
  • more general polls like this for feedback about changes and policy
  • push for code changes to be implemented faster and utilize test merges so the game isn't in a broken state for as long because that sucks


ok niknak so what are you going to change?
Ban appeals
Allow any admin to handle appeals from retired admins again. The previous headmins took this right away from all game admins and just shoved it under "headmins will handle this now" and I believe it was a bad decision. Game admins should be allowed to lift bans from retired admins because it helped deal with appeals faster and because Game admins did so in the past to great success and there weren't really any issues with it, I'm not really sure why the right was ever taken away.

I'm not really happy with how ban appeals or complaints have been handled this term at all. They've been left sitting around longer than ever before. They used to be handled much faster and just as well I think. A player should never have to double post a reminder because someone forgot to read their thread or reply. If admins are inactive and not checking their appeals or complaints, ping them and make them handle it or get on their case for being inactive.

Events
Reward and encourage more well thought out events. Custom maps, sounds, and dedication to giving playersan extra unique experience that isn't just button mashing should be encouraged and rewarding for the admins who chose to run them. I have no idea what this entails and how to encourage it or reward but heck, I think custom maps are cool as shit and more events surrounding them would be a good thing I believe.

Polls and Escalation
It needs changes I agree and insert buzzwords that appear every election but at this point I'm not sure what needs to change anymore. I'd probably just run more polls like this and about escalation about what players think needs more protection: their right to fight back, their right to permanently remove players, or their right to get admins involved. To be honest, we need more general feedback polls period, this is really under utilized.

Code
Obviously code is controlled by maintainers and oranges and I don't really have a problem with it. I'd just see if I can push more test merges or implement things faster so areas of the game (like medical) aren't left
in broken states for as long. When you play multiple rounds a day multiple days a week, you really see how things like medibots making people deaf deter players from playing the game and that's something I'd try to address.
Last edited by NikNakFlak on Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:34 am #510258

Historically existed outside of the anime admin clique, goes way back, has a really good handle on the game itself and has an eye for good character. I think I've seen him be oranges-lite in terms of abrasiveness in the distant past, but nothing recent comes to mind. Pretty solid vote and will be high up on my ballot for sure
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Arianya
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Arianya » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:41 am #510318

Ban appeals
Allow any admin to handle appeals from retired admins again. The current headmins took this right away from all game admins and just shoved it under "headmins will handle this now" and I believe it was a bad decision. Game admins should be allowed to lift bans from retired admins because it helped deal with appeals faster and because Game admins did so in the past to great success and there weren't really any issues with it, I'm not really sure why the right was ever taken away.


As a point of historical accuracy, it was actually my term that took it away, not wubli/nerv/hulk. And I would ask the same question I believe I've asked every time you've brought it up - why do you think it would help "deal with appeals faster"? Retired admin bans make up a tiny fraction of all ban appeals, so I don't really buy that it "makes appeals go faster" - heck, we had one just today for a HBL ban that was handled in a blistering hour and fifteen minutes. In comparison, non-retired admin bans make up the majority of ban appeals at any given time and are often the far more ponderous ones.

I'm not really happy with how ban appeals or complaints have been handled this term at all. They've been left sitting around longer than ever before. They used to be handled much faster and just as well I think. A player should never have to double post a reminder because someone forgot to read their thread or reply. If admins are inactive and not checking their appeals or complaints, ping them and make them handle it or get on their case for being inactive.


Do you have reason to believe headmins this term haven't been pinging for this? And while trying to avoid specific cases, do you acknowledge that at least some of these were in the name of someone who can't exactly be treated like an average Game Admin?

Events
Reward and encourage more well thought out events. Custom maps, sounds, and dedication to giving playersan extra unique experience that isn't just button mashing should be encouraged and rewarding for the admins who chose to run them. I have no idea what this entails and how to encourage it or reward but heck, I think custom maps are cool as shit and more events surrounding them would be a good thing I believe.


While custom maps, sounds and the like are nice, this is kind of an empty platform without some detail. Not every admin is a mapper or spriter or sound engineer, and historically grand scale events with more dedication have been very fragile and prone to being snapped in half by players, leading to frustrated event runners and sometimes frustrated players at what seems like a "boring event". You'd need more then just rewards (whatever that would entail) for this - you'd need a pretty significant culture shift to make those kind of events more tenable

Code
Obviously code is controlled by maintainers and oranges and I don't really have a problem with it. I'd just see if I can push more test merges or implement things faster so areas of the game (like medical) aren't left
in broken states for as long. When you play multiple rounds a day multiple days a week, you really see how things like medibots making people deaf deter players from playing the game and that's something I'd try to address.


The way you've worded this makes it sounds like you'd be eager to testmerge PRs that change things the headcoder/maintainers have a view on in pursuit of player experience. While obviously very few people are going to complain about straight bug fixes, would you, for example, have testmerged a revert/readdition of sleepers when it was the hot topic, in spite of the codebase opposing you?
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby NikNakFlak » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:24 pm #510382

I fucking hate quote blocks but it's the best way to respond.
Arianya wrote:As a point of historical accuracy, it was actually my term that took it away, not wubli/nerv/hulk.

My mistake, it's now fixed in the op.
Arianya wrote:As a point of historical accuracy, it was actually my term that took it away, not wubli/nerv/hulk. And I would ask the same question I believe I've asked every time you've brought it up - why do you think it would help "deal with appeals faster"? Retired admin bans make up a tiny fraction of all ban appeals, so I don't really buy that it "makes appeals go faster" - heck, we had one just today for a HBL ban that was handled in a blistering hour and fifteen minutes. In comparison, non-retired admin bans make up the majority of ban appeals at any given time and are often the far more ponderous ones.

The one example you provided is for something we don't even ban for anymore and might not have been when it was placed either depending on what SoS we were dealing with at the time. It would have been trivial for any game admin to lift it and a game admin brought it up in discord before a headmin did. While it's true there are less appeals from retired admins, the change would still improve response times because more people have the ability to handle something. You de-deligated for the sake of de-deligation, nothing more. Game admins never had issues handling these retired admin appeals and they often only got a response faster. Why did you feel the need to "fix" something that wasn't broken? It only reduced efficiency.

Do you have reason to believe headmins this term haven't been pinging for this? And while trying to avoid specific cases, do you acknowledge that at least some of these were in the name of someone who can't exactly be treated like an average Game Admin?

I don't keep track of every message headmins sent in discord, all I know is that it's a mess and appeals/complaints was slow as fuck. There's always people who are going to need headmin attention either because they are high profile or because they demand it, that will never change, I don't really understand what this comment is getting at. I read the forums pretty often so maybe I could have a bigger impact getting things resolved faster but who knows

While custom maps, sounds and the like are nice, this is kind of an empty platform without some detail. Not every admin is a mapper or spriter or sound engineer, and historically grand scale events with more dedication have been very fragile and prone to being snapped in half by players, leading to frustrated event runners and sometimes frustrated players at what seems like a "boring event". You'd need more then just rewards (whatever that would entail) for this - you'd need a pretty significant culture shift to make those kind of events more tenable

Feel free to think it's empty, you can have that opinion. You are painting events in an awfully bad light. I don't think a culture shift is needed and I don't think players ruin events that often. I've run countless events as an admin to great success and less success, it's pretty easily tenable. Custom maps go a long way for a good event at little expense, little expertise, and little worry of players fucking it up. The best part is they can be shared in places like the event workshop and used by admins who don't have time to map but still want to do something. Rewarding and encouraging events can be anything from a shoutout in the MOTD for an admin or a positive note on a player that really goes the extra mile roleplaying/being a role in an event. It doesn't have to be complicated or big and I believe it would still be a push in the right direction. Everything concerning your opinion about events is pretty clouded and pessimistic to me which I believe isn't anywhere close to reality. It would only be more fun for players to push this initiative and most likely get more people involved in running them with fancier maps.

The way you've worded this makes it sounds like you'd be eager to testmerge PRs that change things the headcoder/maintainers have a view on in pursuit of player experience. While obviously very few people are going to complain about straight bug fixes, would you, for example, have testmerged a revert/readdition of sleepers when it was the hot topic, in spite of the codebase opposing you?

I'm talking about working with coders not cucking them. Coders usually have a reason for their changes. If I was headmin when stun gloves were removed, would I have test merged a PR that re-added them? No
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby lmwevil » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:09 am #510577

Niknak is based and from a long time ago. unfortunately he won't win the player vote simply because there are more 'characterful' people like sticky that they vote for, but he would be a fine headmin all things considered. seems to keep a level head and i know him from way back. one of the better options.

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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Arianya » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:58 pm #510872

NikNakFlak wrote:The one example you provided is for something we don't even ban for anymore and might not have been when it was placed either depending on what SoS we were dealing with at the time. It would have been trivial for any game admin to lift it and a game admin brought it up in discord before a headmin did. While it's true there are less appeals from retired admins, the change would still improve response times because more people have the ability to handle something. You de-deligated for the sake of de-deligation, nothing more. Game admins never had issues handling these retired admin appeals and they often only got a response faster. Why did you feel the need to "fix" something that wasn't broken? It only reduced efficiency.


That's kind of my point though - ex-admin bans fall into one of two categories: Either so outdated/irrelevant or the person isn't otherwise notorious that they're lifted pretty quickly, or complex/historied enough that it'll need headmin intervention anyway to crosscheck them with other servers, ask around about their history within /tg/, etc. The former is not lacking for efficiency - I cited the HBL ban because it was a recent example, but I suspect if you were to trawl ban appeals you'd find a similar general trend - the simple ones are resolved very quickly, and the not-simple ones take a bit longer (though not egregiously so, in any case). So the ban in question was as trivial for wubli to lift as it would have been for any game admin, so I don't really buy "improved response times" or "efficiency" as arguments - 1 hour 15 minutes is blistering pace by ban appeals times.

It wasn't de-delegated for de-delegation's sake - as I explained to you at the time, it was mostly a matter of consistency - admins don't deal with other admins bans, outside of the at the time exemption for higher ranked admins touching Trial Admin bans (an exemption that is now gone by the way, if your concern is sharing the load I would have thought this was a much more prudent one to argue about). Enforcing it this way ensured that was consistent without an odd exemption for a very small fraction of ban appeals. There was also secondary reasoning in that it could cause issues with ensuring those "old ban" appeals are properly looked into - a purely trying to help Game Admin might remove an old ban as the history on the person looked innocuous, but later find out that the person has a much more storied history that isn't well documented due to old database/mostly being known in word of mouth/etc.


I don't keep track of every message headmins sent in discord, all I know is that it's a mess and appeals/complaints was slow as fuck. There's always people who are going to need headmin attention either because they are high profile or because they demand it, that will never change, I don't really understand what this comment is getting at. I read the forums pretty often so maybe I could have a bigger impact getting things resolved faster but who knows


I was circumspectly referring to a recent case that would be difficult for you as a prospective headmin to deal with if it came up during your term, but it's not worth belabouring the point for it.


Feel free to think it's empty, you can have that opinion. You are painting events in an awfully bad light. I don't think a culture shift is needed and I don't think players ruin events that often. I've run countless events as an admin to great success and less success, it's pretty easily tenable. Custom maps go a long way for a good event at little expense, little expertise, and little worry of players fucking it up. The best part is they can be shared in places like the event workshop and used by admins who don't have time to map but still want to do something. Rewarding and encouraging events can be anything from a shoutout in the MOTD for an admin or a positive note on a player that really goes the extra mile roleplaying/being a role in an event. It doesn't have to be complicated or big and I believe it would still be a push in the right direction. Everything concerning your opinion about events is pretty clouded and pessimistic to me which I believe isn't anywhere close to reality. It would only be more fun for players to push this initiative and most likely get more people involved in running them with fancier maps.


I never actually used the word "ruin", because it'd be unfair to ascribe that kind of malice to players who are just playing the game - my point is more that the more intricate an event is, the more fragile it is and the more likely it is that someone will take an action (without any intent of "ruining" the event) that the event runner didn't foresee and either result in it landing like a dud or otherwise. SS13 is by it's nature intricate and that means it's hard to cover every base, especially during a live event.

I don't say this out of pessimism or trying to paint them in a bad light - events are incredibly important to /tg/ both from a keeping the playerbase engaged point of view and from a giving admins something to sink their teeth into as a counter balance to dealing with tickets. I say it out of realism from having both observed and tried to run "fancy map" events and seen how they can go wrong, through no intentional fault of anyone involved.

I'm talking about working with coders not cucking them. Coders usually have a reason for their changes. If I was headmin when stun gloves were removed, would I have test merged a PR that re-added them? No


Fair enough.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby NikNakFlak » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:48 am #510926

so I don't really buy "improved response times" or "efficiency" as arguments - 1 hour 15 minutes is blistering pace by ban appeals times.

reducing efficiency is reducing efficiency, one way or another, giving game admins the right to lift old admins appeals will be better.
I suspect if you were to trawl ban appeals you'd find a similar general trend - the simple ones are resolved very quickly, and the not-simple ones take a bit longer (though not egregiously so, in any case).

Some ex admin appeals I pulled before getting lazy
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=23164 oranges replied the day of (July 4th), headmins didn't get to it till (July 11th) however I see your point of how this ban might fall under needing headmin attention one way or the other, but also noting that if a game admin were to ping headmins and get their discord opinion/permission, it still might have been faster than waiting for one to find it and post.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22701 falls into your latter category but it's skread.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22999 not a ban but a note. Initial post (June 19th), Headmin post (June 22). Not a long time to wait but could have been handled by a game admin easily within a day.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22760 Initial post (may 27th) your post (may 29th) not a long time to wait and technically you violated not lifting other admins bans right here but it was requested so why couldn't game admins do it, could have been handled sooner. Unsure if you got permission in discord lifted on behalf of another I guess, Ari proved me wrong here
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22506 Initial post (April 29th) Final post (may 9th) the dude waited 10 days for a headmin to respond after wubli initially responded immediately. Sure a vouch was involved but it might have been lifted even without the vouch if I'm reading wubli's post right. This right here is a pretty obvious case.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22469 handled immediately by wubli nice
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22272 lifted immediately by okand who also technically lifted a ban of another old admin's despite the ruling, unsure if they got permission in discord but either way also could have been done by a game admin and it was trivial
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22097 lifted with headmin permission 3 days after the post by you
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22162 lifted two days later by a headmin. Not a long time but a trivial ban any game admin could have lifted
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22232 note appeal answered same day by wubli and resolved
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22139 ban appeal from ages ago lifted same day by nervere
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22125 same day handled by nervere/wubli. Needed headmin attention
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22099 lifted same day by wubli
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22065 handled a day later by wubli
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22050 handled same day by wubli
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=21988 edit: you were headmin at the time. same day, could have been handled by any game admin
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=21832 first post feb 25th, last post by you mar 3rd. A bit of a long wait and you broke your own rule again. edit: you were headmin at the time. Probably could have been handled by a game admin sooner though
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=21780 first post feb 23rd, headmin response: march 1st. Long ass wait especially since I was personally around and dealt with this guy at the time. Might have needed headmin attention, but I also specifically remember reading this thread as a game admin and not having the ability to lift it. Maybe I could have pinged headmins in discord and I didn't but it's not really my duty to do so.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=21666 first post feb 15th, headmin response feb 21st. Could have been handled by a game admin (IT WAS A LAWYER JOBBAN FOR GODS SAKE LMAO)

I got pretty lazy but after doing all that I discovered that while not the majority, there are a sizable amount of retired admin appeals and it's completely mixed bag, also you break your own fucking rule a fuck ton. The rule you put down was ignored a few times but I edit this to concede you didn't break your own rule, but my point still stands. I believe it's perfectly valid to say that letting game admins lift old retired admins bans is completely valid and would be more efficient. Also, wubli is pretty based handling appeals, good job wubli.

t wasn't de-delegated for de-delegation's sake - as I explained to you at the time, it was mostly a matter of consistency - admins don't deal with other admins bans, outside of the at the time exemption for higher ranked admins touching Trial Admin bans (an exemption that is now gone by the way, if your concern is sharing the load I would have thought this was a much more prudent one to argue about).

I think I proved this completely wrong with the above to be honest. Also you didn't even practice what you preached and it was only beneficial for the players that you ignored your own rule for so
There was also secondary reasoning in that it could cause issues with ensuring those "old ban" appeals are properly looked into - a purely trying to help Game Admin might remove an old ban as the history on the person looked innocuous, but later find out that the person has a much more storied history that isn't well documented due to old database/mostly being known in word of mouth/etc.

You seemed to have no issues doing this and you are promoting a hypothetical that never happened in all the years that game admins were allowed to do this. Although I seem to remember you doing something like it except it was for candidating someone who you weren't familiar with their history... :revolver: :revolver: :revolver: ok roast aside, yea it wasn't a problem so I don't believe posing a hypothetical when there wasn't any problems is fair.
my point is more that the more intricate an event is, the more fragile it is and the more likely it is that someone will take an action (without any intent of "ruining" the event) that the event runner didn't foresee and either result in it landing like a dud or otherwise. SS13 is by it's nature intricate and that means it's hard to cover every base, especially during a live event.

Completely 100% subjective. It depends on how good the admin is, what the event is, whether or not they can role with the players punches and adapt their event on the fly. It's an art and players not acting according to an admin's event is just as likely to create an amazing story as it is to make an event a dud. This is far too subjective for you to claim one direction or the other and the former of allowing players to weave their own paths is what makes space station 13 such a fantastic game and should NEVER EVER be discouraged.
I say it out of realism from having both observed and tried to run "fancy map" events and seen how they can go wrong, through no intentional fault of anyone involved.

Things can go wrong, this shouldn't be a reason to discourage events at all, you are just flat out dead wrong. Things can also go right or even go better than expected. You have zero data to base your pessimism on because we don't keep track of every single event an admin does. It's completely subjective to the admin and completely different for every admin and player experiencing or running the event. It should STILL only be encouraged and promoted and done MORE often because we get ten billion regular antagonist rounds, we only get so many events from the absolutely BASED admins who choose to run them.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Reeeee » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 am #511045

1more events involving custom maps
2more general polls like this for feedback about changes and policy
3push for code changes to be implemented faster and utilize test merges so the game isn't in a broken state for as long because that sucks

Okay, first part of it is internal admin politicking and as such, kinda out of my league to make an opinion on, since it's hidden from us normies who would just ree at it in a confused pile of tears.
That being said, I will say all are good ideas I see no problem with as an nonmin to happen.
Should not you just do that from the inside, is it really impossible to move it as a topic towards direction you want as non-headmin?

1 Do you have a person to map or are you 100% certain you can make or get these maps made in, let's say, your entire headmin term to be 100% like you want them to and have time to listen to feedback and make changes?
I assume gateway maps as being the "events" mentioned here so it's part of core SS13 and I can enjoy it if I choose to.
(Playing pacifist is retarded, don't do it and only reason why I hope they are optional as part of gateway)
That you might fuck up in the process is irrelevant as is the number of them, even one would suffice for success.

2 General polls where? Hopefully inside the server(s) somehow. I seem to miss all of these and I play actively. Am bad.

3 Isn't this exactly the "don't promise code changes" thing? Or did I miss a step? And what changes and what "broken states" you are talking about specifically?

Shit that has broken the game to be unplayable from code side have in my opinion always been hastily corrected in less than few hours if not in minutes by reverts. It's how things apparently need to work when doing code changes.
Cobbychem medibots, fusion fuckery being absolute on/off killswitch for the station and slight sprite issues with "unders" and hardsuits have never been an "unplayable" for me, those being the only one's i can see would be considered broken and none made it "unplayable" in recent memory.
If other examples of "unplayable state" have remained for longer, I am not aware of them at right this moment.
Just buggy stuff.
And that is part of SS13 for me, bugs and legacy code making things hard to achieve that are not actively supported. Like Thermal Energy Generator that i love but really dislikes even slight mistake and has to be constructed in a very specific order for it to work since code has moved on from having TEG to be a part of the game now. Even these I don't have very many of to call out as being such besides TEG.

And finally, can you push all of these changes in your term and what are the issues you will face by doing so?
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:24 pm #511089

NikNakFlak wrote:reducing efficiency is reducing efficiency, one way or another, giving game admins the right to lift old admins appeals will be better.


I mean, sure, from a purely utilitarian view, but it seems oddly petty when you consider the actual gains (which seem minimal if any) and that's only if you dismiss the concerns. Why not look at something like the uptick of pointless admin complaints taking up headmin time if you're concerned about efficiency?

[list of ban appeals]

I got pretty lazy but after doing all that I discovered that while not the majority, there are a sizable amount of retired admin appeals and it's completely mixed bag, also you break your own fucking rule a fuck ton. The rule you put down was ignored a few times but I edit this to concede you didn't break your own rule, but my point still stands. I believe it's perfectly valid to say that letting game admins lift old retired admins bans is completely valid and would be more efficient. Also, wubli is pretty based handling appeals, good job wubli.


I don't really care to re-examine each ban in that list, but a casual look at the blurbs you've written would suggest that most of these were handled plenty fast - and those that weren't generally had a reason. You're free to disagree and say it'd be better if they were handled "quicker", but it feels like a rather pointless platform - a person banned since 2014 isn't going to die because a headmin took a couple of days to check over their ban and history.

I'd also note that you found 19 of these retired ban admins - and by my guesstimation there have been something like 300 ban appeals during this term - not counting the 17 on the trot currently. So I feel fairly comfortable saying that these are a pretty small fraction of headmin work in ban appeals or in general.

We'll have to agree to disagree, ultimately, but I'm glad we got the chance to discuss it in further detail.

I think I proved this completely wrong with the above to be honest. Also you didn't even practice what you preached and it was only beneficial for the players that you ignored your own rule for so


The outdated "ignored your own rule" part aside, I'm not sure how you disproved my reasoning - as I stated, even if there was efficiency gain (however tangential), it's still a matter of consistency of admins not touching other's bans.

You seemed to have no issues doing this and you are promoting a hypothetical that never happened in all the years that game admins were allowed to do this. Although I seem to remember you doing something like it except it was for candidating someone who you weren't familiar with their history... :revolver: :revolver: :revolver: ok roast aside, yea it wasn't a problem so I don't believe posing a hypothetical when there wasn't any problems is fair.


I made a mistake, mostly out of inexperience, when dealing with bluespace. I freely admitted that at the time, and apologized both to the admins who raised the issue at the time and to bluespace themself. I don't really consider it a roast, but good potshot I guess.

And yes, it may be a hypothetical, but it's one worth avoiding for exactly the kind of issue that came with bluespace - administration should be consistent and leaving a trap for someone eager to help to fall into that makes the team look bad isn't fair to the players involved or the admin involved.

Events


Opinions on events are by their nature subjective, though I feel fairly certain that even the most pro-events admins such as Sticky would agree with me on the point re:intricacy/fragility. Sure emergent stories are part of the fun, but when you've worked on custom assets it can still be frustrating to have some of that work thrown in the trash.

I never suggested or advocated discouraging events - my original point was that you had a platform of rewarding/encouraging events, especially ones with custom assets, and that there wasn't any real detail about this and that admins can be turned off the idea by these issues - whether you think it's pessimism or unfounded is of course your prerogative, but as it stands its not a platform that seems (to me) to have much substance to it and like the kind of goal that will fall to the wayside.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby D&B » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:47 pm #511094

Can we look forward to you looking up bad players addresses again?
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

J_Madison wrote:that's a stupid fucking stat
you don't play, you've never played
lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you

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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby NikNakFlak » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:27 am #511296

Reeeee wrote:
1 Do you have a person to map or are you 100% certain you can make or get these maps made in, let's say, your entire headmin term to be 100% like you want them to and have time to listen to feedback and make changes?
I assume gateway maps as being the "events" mentioned here so it's part of core SS13 and I can enjoy it if I choose to.

I plan on making maps anyway and yea I can make more than 3. I already started making one but the map placing tool is broken. I made an issue for it.

2 General polls where? Hopefully inside the server(s) somehow. I seem to miss all of these and I play actively. Am bad.

the server. We have polls, and they can be free response. We barely do this, dunno why.

3 Isn't this exactly the "don't promise code changes" thing? Or did I miss a step? And what changes and what "broken states" you are talking about specifically?

Mostly talking about medbay but really anything that's broken and stays like it for a week. I'm not promising code changes, I'm promising quick test merges and pushes for fixes of broken things in the game. Server direction with code is one thing, I have no control over. But I can use the position to try and best benefit a solid and functional game.
other code stuff

whatever is broken man, we've had stuff be so borked before we had to have emergency fixes. I think we should just them more often and for less emergency things for a more enjoyable experience. Sometimes code bugs are funny, other times they suck ass.
And finally, can you push all of these changes in your term and what are the issues you will face by doing so?

I don't see why not. Nothing is stopping me from doing these things without headmin so if I don't win, I'll just push for them to be implemented anyway.

Ari wrote:I mean, sure, from a purely utilitarian view, but it seems oddly petty when you consider the actual gains (which seem minimal if any) and that's only if you dismiss the concerns. Why not look at something like the uptick of pointless admin complaints taking up headmin time if you're concerned about efficiency?

There are gains and zero concerns. Nonexistent problems that you still paint as if they ever happened in the past, aren't concerns.
but a casual look at the blurbs you've written would suggest that most of these were handled plenty fast - and those that weren't generally had a reason.

Some weren't handled fast at all with little to no zero for the delay. Such as the one where some dude posted and didn't get a response for 7 days or the one where Jzoid just closed his thread because he waited so long and nobody responded. They would be handled quicker. It's not pointless but I understand why you so fiercely defend this since you implemented the rule I want to gut.
I'd also note that you found 19 of these retired ban admins - and by my guesstimation there have been something like 300 ban appeals during this term - not counting the 17 on the trot currently. So I feel fairly comfortable saying that these are a pretty small fraction of headmin work in ban appeals or in general.

Almost all 300 of those bans are from existing admins closed and resolved by those same admins, headmins aren't that involved. The appeals I listed are the ones that are SPECIFICALLY technically under headmin ruling and they could still be handled faster. I'll disagree with you until the end of time and even if I don't win the election, I'll never stop pushing this change and hope it goes through.
it's still a matter of consistency of admins not touching other's bans.it's still a matter of consistency of admins not touching other's bans.

They aren't admins anymore. I don't know why you are grasping on to this like it's life or death. Game admins handled these appeals in the past with zero issue, who gives a fuck about consistency if it's a worse system.
I freely admitted that at the time, and apologized both to the admins who raised the issue at the time and to bluespace themself.

Yea after adminbus had to shit it's pants for you.
but it's one worth avoiding for exactly the kind of issue that came with bluespace - administration should be consistent and leaving a trap for someone eager to help to fall into that makes the team look bad isn't fair to the players involved or the admin involved.

Except what happened with bluespace never happened with appeals, my point I'm trying to make is that a similar situation happened because of your mistake, not because of the system. The system was fine and had no issues. It's not a system problem, it's an individual admin problem, and the admins who stepped up and handled these appeals in the past, didn't have any fuckups so why did you punish them? Consistency?
even the most pro-events admins such as Sticky would agree with me on the point re:intricacy/fragility.

requesting stickymayhem's opinion because I disagree with you a lot
that admins can be turned off the idea by these issues

sure I guess, they can be just as turned on to run more events uwu
but as it stands its not a platform that seems (to me) to have much substance to it and like the kind of goal that will fall to the wayside.

well I hope you're ready for me to do it anyway!
D&B wrote:Can we look forward to you looking up bad players addresses again?

That's not how IP addresses work, on the flipside every so often we get griefers on the server and on top of them griefing, confirming they are using a bogus IP address helps determine it's a shitter we can just toss outright.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:50 am #511331

The fact that something may have not happened in the past doesn't mean they can't be concerns, Niknak.

I don't feel the need to defend the rule because it's one I implemented - I mostly don't understand your laser focus on it, given my (personal) view of it as a non-issue and that even when other issues in the same vein are indicated which could be seen as worse (i.e. the removal of higher admins permissions to overrule trialmins) you seem to not care.

I'll tell you now that if you aren't at the very least reading over bans (let alone doing independent investigation) on those "300 bans" that would come up during a hypothetical term then you're not doing your job as headmin. Just because headmins don't post in every thread doesn't mean that those ban appeals are free real estate that headmins don't have to care about.

It's fair enough to hold your opinion. I'm sorry we can't see eye to eye on it, and that you see the rule as a "punishment". It was certainly never intended as such.

Yea after adminbus had to shit it's pants for you.


I think it's fairly impolite of you to make a mountain out of a molehill - the whole thing was resolved in under 24 hours and I freely admitted the mistake to the admins who noted the issue. I've never claimed to be perfect and I like to think I learnt an important lesson from that (very early in my term) mistake.

I apologize if that's still a black mark in your eyes.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby Reeeee » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:44 am #511335

Okay, I can't call you on anything more than this internal admin stuff I don't feel i should be bothered with as a player who's un-adminable for being a dick nor have I any desire for any moderation anymore in my life.
HLPE ADMIN I BORKED ROOL AND TOTALY WAS NOT MY FAULT AND I BLAM OTHERS DO LOGDIVE
Ech.
THIS GUY BREAKING ROOL HELP OR ADMIN COMPLAIN IN MICROSECOND NO I WONT TELL WHAT ROOL OR HOW
*groan*

But might as well since I'm allowed to toss opinions and questions to do that. MUH FREEDUMS.

As far as i see it;
"Admin can only deal with his bans and is never allowed to affect anyone else's bans. Only headmin can overrule decisions."
Yes?
At first glance it does seem bit "off" and autocratic. But without it, everyone could scream on any ban appeal what they want and muddy the waters for no raisins.
It has oversight and doesn't make it a clusterfuck to appeal.
It is working
And, these are BAN appeals, yes?
People fucked up; do crime, do time or something.

Mistakes happen on response times and Nik hates it.
Fair point.
Instill a hard, rational time limit to remove this restriction, yes?
Fixed?

But not, since only that person was present to make that judgement call so he really is the only one to make any decisions about it.
And when it's obvious "oopsie" such as autobanner catching wrong IP I don't think anyone cares it's being ruled by literally anyone if they can prove it was objectively false information leading to said bwoink.

Fix, don't remove, add rules to what is a situation where ruling can be made communally or by anyone?

And this is not SS13PD or FBI, it's people volunteering, I think you just HAVE TO accept mistakes being made and IRL matters interfering being facts that you can't change.

I don't know why you are making it an player votable issue, sure it deserves a discussion and this way even retards like me get to chime in with stupid, but it's literally internal admin discussion and decision to make by those people who do volunteer themselves for it, yes?
Not randoms who make spacemen horizontal.

Thank you for the insight in this matte at least, if nothing else. Both of you.

That being said, you run on this, rest you promise to do anyway and assure me you can do em.
And you are 100% correct in assumption that you made a viable candidate I hover my cursor over along with others when time comes.
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Re: NikNak - Hello, I am running for headmin!

Postby NikNakFlak » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:36 pm #511377

Ari wrote:I don't feel the need to defend the rule because it's one I implemented - I mostly don't understand your laser focus on it, given my (personal) view of it as a non-issue and that even when other issues in the same vein are indicated which could be seen as worse (i.e. the removal of higher admins permissions to overrule trialmins) you seem to not care.

Everything I'm running on has my laser focus. I thought it was a non-issue as well which is why to this day, I'm scratching my head as to why you changed it but I guess you answered that which was "consistency for consistency sake". As far as game admins over-ruling trialmins' bans. In the past a game admin has lifted a trialmin's ban without telling them which made the trialmin upset, not sure which example I'm remembering though. Plus that's a whole different use case. Game admins could lift trialmin bans if the trialmin ban was bad, but game admins could lift retired admin's bans because it was helpful and helped them get unbanned.
I'll tell you now that if you aren't at the very least reading over bans (let alone doing independent investigation) on those "300 bans" that would come up during a hypothetical term then you're not doing your job as headmin.

yea someone tell that to this term's headmins since everyone and their mother running me included think they didn't do the best job. I read every appeal and so do a few other game admins just simply because it's fun and informative. This is a person to person issue.
Just because headmins don't post in every thread doesn't mean that those ban appeals are free real estate that headmins don't have to care about.

Actually they pretty much are unless their attention is specifically called to it such as someone demanding a game admin's ban be over ruled.
I think it's fairly impolite of you to make a mountain out of a molehill - the whole thing was resolved in under 24 hours and I freely admitted the mistake to the admins who noted the issue. I've never claimed to be perfect and I like to think I learnt an important lesson from that (very early in my term) mistake.

I'd call it more like a decent sized hill but not a mountain. The thing was only resolved because of admins calling you out and we had to dig in our heels and weren't even included in the conversation in the first place (but that's a long lost gripe). The only reason I brought it up is because you cite a similar reason for defending game admin's in ability to lift retired admin's bans but the only precedent is of an unrelated sorts while in actuality, there were no problems. Sure you could have a concern over something that historically went off without a hitch, but I'd probably worry about other things personally rather than the process which had no issues.
Reeeee wrote stuff

Thanks for the support! That was kinda hard to read
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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby peoplearestrange » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:13 pm #512760

I have one question:
Why do I think you hate me?

Also you should throw in that you were THE maintainer of bans sticking before sticky bans were a thing. Seriously I've never known someone to be so organised in making sure a ban sticks.
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This is my moment, what are you doing?!

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callanrockslol wrote:all you have to do is ban shitters until the playbase improves/ceases to exist, whichever comes first.

IM TRYING

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Are you having a stroke

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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:29 pm #512776

niknak's a good dude but i feel like this campaign is just to spite me cuz i said he was the smartest admin cuz he never ran for headmin

perhaps i'm just noided
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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby D&B » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:38 am #512821

If IP numbers don't work like that, then why are so many admins using NordVPN or hiding their ips right now behind masks?

Do you think I or the playerbase are stupid or something? There's no longer paper trails, now everything leaves a digital trace. You can certainly look up someone's general location with their IP, hell, you most of all should know how easy it is to be found online. Administration nowadays has been affected as well, so why should we put someone that did this to creep on players on such a high position? You didn't even admit to doing this, someone with a better moral fiber than you did, which is worrying to say the least, and says a lot about your character to say the most.

Or are you hoping it remains censored, and the fact you don't like being looked up too, but instead want the position of headmin because you know the other two won't talk about who or what you lookup if you find them first?

You're nothing less of a bona fide creep that's had his bones hidden in the closet by the other administrators, and you really should explain why the playerbase should trust YOU not to infringe upon them. Of all people presenting themselves for this position, you're the only one that has this ugly stain in the open.
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

J_Madison wrote:that's a stupid fucking stat
you don't play, you've never played
lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you

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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:44 am #512827

repukan I use ip's to look up player information all the time, it's one of the key ways to identify ban evaders, you can resolve them to a geographical area and identify if a cluster of addresses come from the same city as another point of data when matching accounts that don't always have a CID or IP match, but it's no more specific than that, and every single persons server you connect to can do the same and 99% of services on the internet are geograhically resolving your IP address to a city or region to do stats gathering and ad serving.

It might shock to you know that we can also look up the ISP who owns an IP address and the company who has the routing number assigned for the netblock.

If you ever come out of nowhere spitting something so hilariously misinformed again about a topic you clearly know next to nothing about I will put you on post approval.
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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:48 am #512828

lol
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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby NikNakFlak » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:51 am #512830

PAS wrote:Why do I think you hate me?

I haven't interacted with you for years and have little to no opinion one way or the other. Hello though, I don't hate you.
SAC wrote:niknak's a good dude but i feel like this campaign is just to spite me cuz i said he was the smartest admin cuz he never ran for headmin

I ran for headmin twice before but thank you for the support, we had differences in the past and still don't agree on some stuff but that is life
D&B wrote:stuff

you are pretty deranged to be honest but oranges already said everything, I'm pretty sure nobody on the admin team bothers with VPNs really though
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Re: Whisper - NikNakFlak

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:03 am #512833

NikNakFlak wrote:
PAS wrote:Why do I think you hate me?

I haven't interacted with you for years and have little to no opinion one way or the other. Hello though, I don't hate you.
SAC wrote:niknak's a good dude but i feel like this campaign is just to spite me cuz i said he was the smartest admin cuz he never ran for headmin

I ran for headmin twice before but thank you for the support, we had differences in the past and still don't agree on some stuff but that is life
D&B wrote:stuff

you are pretty deranged to be honest but oranges already said everything, I'm pretty sure nobody on the admin team bothers with VPNs really though

i have a bad memory and don't remember you ever campaigning my bad

like niknak we fight all the time but you're one of the admins who tries hardest to actually Punish The Wicked instead of Meme the Innocent
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