A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Discuss policies and candidacies with the potential Headmins.

Moderator: oranges

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Stickymayhem
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:29 am #573907

Sylphet wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:OOC bigotry needs to end, both in discord and OOC.


While I completely agree with this - How would you actually plan on enforcing it ? The opposition from some parts of the community would be... intense. What would be considered bigotry ? It's very clear to me what it is, but another admin could have a different view. Do you think that inconsistent enforcement could be a problem, and if so, how could it be avoided ?


A lot of rules have inconsistent enforcement, so I don't feel that's a good enough reason to give up on it. What it will do is improve consistency of enforcement, because we keep hearing this idea that this kind of behaviour can be dealt with via rule 1 bans, but that's far less clear than a rule specifically ruling out bigotry.

Obviously defining and removing bigotry is complex (so complex that no one will be able to do it perfectly, here or in society in general) and the kind of people who unironically support this kind of behaviour, will happily claim they are being ironic to hide from the hammer, so both forms have to go. Bigotry in this case will be defined as promoting violent ideologies such as nazism, white supremacy etc. (All of which is a discord TOS violation and could easily get our server shut down) as well as allusions to that affect and the targeting, insulting or slurring of marginalized groups. Obviously like almost all of our rules it's not going to be an instant permaban, you'll be warned and told to knock it off and only banned if it's clear you aren't getting the hint.

It's not going to be perfect, but unfettered tolerance for intolerant ideologies breeds intolerance. You can stop being a nazi, and no one is actively trying to eliminate you for being one, but the people nazis target can't stop being the kind of people they are, and nazis do want them eliminated. That's the key difference that makes it necessary to dampen down that kind of hatespeech. I want to attract players to the community that don't have to decide "I want to play this video game but it's full of racists and I have to just be ok with that" before being accepted. There are a million other places to go chat about your extreme politics, this is the only place we get to play tgstation.

Also, in regards to the opposition, I've never had too much of an issue with handling that, now or in my previous headmin terms. I think the vital component of freedom of speech is the ability to challenge authority without repurcussion, in our case that means being able to shittalk admins and criticize us over everything freely without punishment. That will never change, and you don't need the ability to drop n-bombs to do that effectively.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:16 pm.

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby remanseptim » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:51 am #573914

you've given this topic a lot more thought than the people who spew that shit in the first place, because to them, they're not spouting a stance or making a call to action, they're saying something retarded and edgy to make other retarded and edgy people laugh. to them, it's literally on the level of poop humor.
they're grown-ass adults. they're not gonna be radicalized towards neo-nazism over stupid shitflinging on a ss13 server.
that said do what needs to be done to prevent discord voring the server, but leave the ss13 server alone. use the ignore function, but let retards annoy other retards for being annoying retards.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:16 pm.

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:16 am #573918

remanseptim wrote:you've given this topic a lot more thought than the people who spew that shit in the first place, because to them, they're not spouting a stance or making a call to action, they're saying something retarded and edgy to make other retarded and edgy people laugh. to them, it's literally on the level of poop humor.
they're grown-ass adults. they're not gonna be radicalized towards neo-nazism over stupid shitflinging on a ss13 server.
that said do what needs to be done to prevent discord voring the server, but leave the ss13 server alone. use the ignore function, but let retards annoy other retards for being annoying retards.


I have no intention of changing anyone's mind, I'm not the thought police and I don't care, but as I've said a couple times now we lose good players and contributors because they can't be assed to tolerate bigotry whereas there is no opposing benefit to keeping that bigotry around except to keep the edgy people happy and because it's too much effort to fight a vocal minority on a dumb issue.

Playing tgstation shouldn't have to involve weighing up whether you're ok enough with bigotry and nazism to play a 2d spessmans game.

they're grown-ass adults. they're not gonna be radicalized towards neo-nazism over stupid shitflinging on a ss13 server.


I'm not doing this to prevent radicalization of individuals. Plenty of research suggests you're wrong on this, but even if you were right it's not the point. There are a million places to discuss nazism and be bigoted, and the only place to play tgstation doesn't have to be that place. Being ironically edgy just attracts the people who unironically believe it. I don't know if you've been to discord recently, but there's plenty of people who are openly and unironically fascist, white supremacist or some other flavour of awful. All of which is a discord TOS violation that, if reported to discord, could very easily get our server permanently shut down, so it's bizarre that we aren't already moderating it.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby remanseptim » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:45 am #573920

the kind of people who unironically support this kind of behaviour, will happily claim they are being ironic to hide from the hammer, so both forms have to go.

this line, from one of your earlier posts, demonstrates that there's more to this than just not wanting to drive players away. it's standing up to an ideology that, in actuality, is not really there. the only people who take what's said in these cases seriously are the ones who want to ban it; to the people saying it, it doesn't mean anything. their words have no power to them, and they shouldn't have any power to you.

as for discord, i'll bring up rule 8:

8: Anything that is against the Discord ToS or that will make Discord mad at us is not allowed.


there's already a rule in place for the Discord ToS. just because it isn't adequately enforced doesn't mean more rules need to be added, especially ones that affect the server -- the server that, remember, has a separate list of bans from the discord.

on the game server, which would actually have its rules radically changed (as opposed to the discord server, which has a rule in place to prevent its ToS being violated), people do not 'discuss nazism'. the vast, vast, vast majorty of the time, whenever something audacious/racist/edgy is said, it's said jokingly. and if you get a blue moon where someone is actually going on an unironic racist rant, who the fuck cares? they're sperging out and embarrassing themselves. the context is what's important, because if you take a phrase in a vacuum, then put a phrase in the context of the chaotic environment of a ss13 server (post-round discussion, for example) those lines take on vastly different meanings.

they're not meant to, and do not, have an effect on real people, unless those people can't fathom that others are joking about something ghastly and crude rather than rallying in support of it. they fling shit at each other like a bunch of dumbass apes because the vast majority of them enjoy doing so. they take it as well as they can throw it.

there is a button to ignore them. you only need to press it once, and you'll never hear from them again. choosing what you hear is just as valid a right as choosing what you say.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby XDTM » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:51 am #573921

Stickymayhem wrote:the kind of people who unironically support this kind of behaviour, will happily claim they are being ironic to hide from the hammer

remanseptim wrote:those people can't fathom that others are joking
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:01 am #573922

remanseptim wrote:
the kind of people who unironically support this kind of behaviour, will happily claim they are being ironic to hide from the hammer, so both forms have to go.

this line, from one of your earlier posts, demonstrates that there's more to this than just not wanting to drive players away. it's standing up to an ideology that, in actuality, is not really there. the only people who take what's said in these cases seriously are the ones who want to ban it; to the people saying it, it doesn't mean anything. their words have no power to them, and they shouldn't have any power to you.

as for discord, i'll bring up rule 8:

8: Anything that is against the Discord ToS or that will make Discord mad at us is not allowed.


there's already a rule in place for the Discord ToS. just because it isn't adequately enforced doesn't mean more rules need to be added, especially ones that affect the server -- the server that, remember, has a separate list of bans from the discord.

on the game server, which would actually have its rules radically changed (as opposed to the discord server, which has a rule in place to prevent its ToS being violated), people do not 'discuss nazism'. the vast, vast, vast majorty of the time, whenever something audacious/racist/edgy is said, it's said jokingly. and if you get a blue moon where someone is actually going on an unironic racist rant, who the fuck cares? they're sperging out and embarrassing themselves. the context is what's important, because if you take a phrase in a vacuum, then put a phrase in the context of the chaotic environment of a ss13 server (post-round discussion, for example) those lines take on vastly different meanings.

they're not meant to, and do not, have an effect on real people, unless those people can't fathom that others are joking about something ghastly and crude rather than rallying in support of it. they fling shit at each other like a bunch of dumbass apes because the vast majority of them enjoy doing so. they take it as well as they can throw it.

there is a button to ignore them. you only need to press it once, and you'll never hear from them again. choosing what you hear is just as valid a right as choosing what you say.


I don't think this is the space to argue whether or not nazis use irony and claim to be joking specifically as an effective tool to maintain plausible deniability. All I can say is that this speech is extremely frequent in OOC, particularly on Terry. I see multiple examples of it every day. I also have seen frequently these same people in politics containment advocating for gassing ethnicities, mass killings, holocaust denial or (the extra hot take) the promotion of new holocausts. I have had discussions with these people lasting hours, and whether or not they've edcuated themselves on all the nazi talking points specifically to do an extremely elaborate meme to bait me, or they're an actual nazi, doesn't matter. The effect is the same. It's a TOS violation and a space where violence against certain groups is promoted, and infringement on the right to spout hatespeech is villified.

Arguing that words do no harm is dumb in a wider society, but even within this community, I have repeatedly pointed to the issue that good contributors and players leave because of this behaviour. You call them edgy retards repeatedly, so why do we prefer to give them total freedom over letting everyone have a good space to play? I'm not saying we should even ban the edgy retards, only to tell them to take hatespeech elsewhere. If they are too stupid to stop their behaviour then they'll be removed.

Rules are more difficult to enforce if they are not clearly laid out. A conversation with someone being a bigot will be 20 minutes longer without a rule in place, and the ban appeals will accumulate. This is pretty much why it's poorly enforced, because the rule is not clearly stated, leaving plausible deniability for those punished and admins without a clear ruling to point to and be confident in.

I shouldn't have to share a space with nazi ideology and bigotry just to play a video game. Why should we reward our worst player's worst behaviour at the expense of the the kind of players and contributors we actually want here?

I'd be happy to take this to a broader discussion on discord if you care enough, but I think we've exhausted the value this conversation has with regards to the election.

To add: In OOC, in the last two weeks I've seen the advocation for killing trans people, killing all black people (only they didn't say black people), gassing the jews, complaints of the trans admin cabal, proud admissions of being racist, proud admissions of being a fascist, slur spamming and plenty more. This is not an environment worth keeping or cultivating. It provides no value, and only harms our ability to gain and retain empathetic, good natured players and contributors. Half of what I've described here was in the last three days.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby remanseptim » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:04 am #573923

that's fine, it was dragging on anyways. i appreciate you explaining your point of view so thoroughly, at any rate.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Gamarr » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:56 pm #573925

Some people shouldn't be in charge of things. This is one of them.

Stickymayhem wrote:I'm not over the fact that everyone defending the cops in tg is thread is also a Kkk sympathiser like they made my job here so fucking easy it's unreal



Stickymayhem wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:too long didn't watch


sorry I know your attention is only held by burning crosses and confederate statues


You trust someone who views players on the server this way? Server deserves what it gets if they do. :honk:

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:22 pm #573926

Gamarr wrote:Some people shouldn't be in charge of things. This is one of them.

Stickymayhem wrote:I'm not over the fact that everyone defending the cops in tg is thread is also a Kkk sympathiser like they made my job here so fucking easy it's unreal



Stickymayhem wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:too long didn't watch


sorry I know your attention is only held by burning crosses and confederate statues


You trust someone who views players on the server this way? Server deserves what it gets if they do. :honk:


They were literally sympathising with a KKK member who drove into a crowd of protestors. This is pretty blatantly off topic but nice attempts at an out of context quote.

That second quote was undeniably funny how dare you.

Expanding my view point to "players on the server" from "Two people in a poltical discussion in an off topic forum about a charged issue" is nonsense.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Gamarr » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:37 pm #573927

Not off topic to cover your opinion and views on things and how they are detrimental for the server overall.
You obviously were conflating someone who disagreed with you as also being a white supremacist for siding with cops. Not nonsense when you believe certain things of the playerbase and are trying to get in a position to create and change rules.

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Space Panda » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:20 pm #573930

Gamarr wrote:Not off topic to cover your opinion and views on things and how they are detrimental for the server overall.
You obviously were conflating someone who disagreed with you as also being a white supremacist for siding with cops. Not nonsense when you believe certain things of the playerbase and are trying to get in a position to create and change rules.


This is /tg/ station my dude, most of us have roots in 4chan, which is a place known for attracting exactly this kind of people. And while we've moved away from those roots, we are still very much related to it. Many of us still share some of the harmful ideas that are cultivated there.

I don't believe moot created 4chan with the idea of it being a place for white supremacists and nazis, but the anonymity coupled with the almost total lack of control over discussion allowed those ideas to become normalized there. Sure, people can repeat the gamer word and make jokes about the holocaust without the actual intent to harm others, but when many people are doing them they're unknowingly helping create a safe space for people that do have those ideas.

If we want to nurture a community that is more welcoming to newcomers, we must make sure that some ideas don't have a place in here. That takes some degree of control over speech, and just saying "don't be a jerk" is not enough.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:15 pm.
Reason: shitpost

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:21 pm #573941

Space Panda wrote:
Gamarr wrote:Not off topic to cover your opinion and views on things and how they are detrimental for the server overall.
You obviously were conflating someone who disagreed with you as also being a white supremacist for siding with cops. Not nonsense when you believe certain things of the playerbase and are trying to get in a position to create and change rules.


This is /tg/ station my dude, most of us have roots in 4chan, which is a place known for attracting exactly this kind of people. And while we've moved away from those roots, we are still very much related to it. Many of us still share some of the harmful ideas that are cultivated there.

I don't believe moot created 4chan with the idea of it being a place for white supremacists and nazis, but the anonymity coupled with the almost total lack of control over discussion allowed those ideas to become normalized there. Sure, people can repeat the gamer word and make jokes about the holocaust without the actual intent to harm others, but when many people are doing them they're unknowingly helping create a safe space for people that do have those ideas.

If we want to nurture a community that is more welcoming to newcomers, we must make sure that some ideas don't have a place in here. That takes some degree of control over speech, and just saying "don't be a jerk" is not enough.


This is right, I started on 4chan too. I was an edgelord internet freespech dankboi (and still am in some ways) but ultimately many of us have individually matured, and the community has clearly matured. We are attracting new players, new contributors and we're on a great path. Telling people to knock off bigotry and nazism has no downside except to the people who want yet another place to express these views. You don't enjoy ss13 because you can throw slurs around or spam "n-words can die" in ooc. If that's the appeal for you, then you're not worth having around. But I highly doubt that is the reason anyone is here.

I hope anyone who is genuinely attempting good faith (as I would have probably 3-4 years ago) in arguing against a bigotry ban can see the staggering lack of counter arguments other than "It's bad", "You're mad" and "mean words". There is no substance. There is no benefit to keeping this shit, and I don't feel the need to cater to the vote of a loud, vitriolic minority. I could easily have skipped this position if I though it would get me votes, but I'm being clear that this is an issue I believe we should solve, and I will encourage other candidates to adopt the same policies.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Timonk » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:24 pm #573964

we lose good players and contributors because they can't be assed to tolerate bigotry


examples please
Agux909 wrote:
Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel


Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.




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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Kendrickorium » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:27 pm #573966

imagine believing the lefts "you're a nazi if you say something we don't like" propaganda

how would you feel if I said BLM is a terrorist organization?
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Timonk » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:29 pm #573967

also

hey im mr 4chan please respect that


no i wont allow even ironic bigotry
Agux909 wrote:
Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel


Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.




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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby actioninja » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:50 pm #573968

Timonk wrote:also

hey im mr 4chan please respect that


no i wont allow even ironic bigotry

stunning lack of reading comprehension
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Timonk » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:51 pm #573969

tell me what stickys 4chan rant is about then i couldnt read more than that
Agux909 wrote:
Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel


Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.




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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:59 pm #573971

Timonk wrote:
we lose good players and contributors because they can't be assed to tolerate bigotry


examples please


actioninja wrote:I've left the discord a total of three times I believe? Two of which were due to what I felt and still feel were pretty unacceptable of behavior that wasn't being acted at all upon by server administration. It's not exactly an uncommon belief among a good amount that the discord server is moderated quite poorly, and in one instance I can recall actively being mocked for not supporting quite literal white supremacist views. That shit's not cool even as "trolling."


Wow that was easy. Here is someone who has contributed many hundreds of times your value to this community in code and collaboration who left multiple times due to this kind of thing. We've lost admins over it, we've lost players over it. We've lost some great people in the community because they aren't comfortable sharing a room with open bigotry.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Kendrickorium » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:42 pm #573990

what are your thoughts on the racist behavior and bigotry towards lizardmen and felinids
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby XDTM » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:50 pm #573993

Timonk wrote:
we lose good players and contributors because they can't be assed to tolerate bigotry


examples please


Personally i've grown distant from /tg/ when i started noticing the open racism flying around in the forums and game, i'd happily welcome a change from that.

Whether i'm a good player and contributor might be up to debate though
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:18 pm #574000

Kendrickorium wrote:what are your thoughts on the racist behavior and bigotry towards lizardmen and felinids


I think there's a better argument to be made for it having an interesting enough dynamic and being distanced enough from real people and real players that it's probably alright. It's a much clearer line given it's entirely IC and entirely about fictional IC characters. The only borderline example is ligger, which I don't really have a problem with.

So basically I think IC racism with fictional races is fine.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:17 pm.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:22 pm.
Reason: if you want to discuss with actioninja his thread is there

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:22 pm.

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby oranges » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:13 pm #574014

Knock it off both of you, Timonk, nobody gives a flying fuck about your opinion on hate speech, you're not even running.

Confine yourself to questions and substantial debate or both of you will find yourselves on post approval.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:13 am.

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Indie-ana Jones » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:44 am #574144

Considering your focus doesn't do anything doesn't have anything to offer strongly to Bagil, I'm not convinced in your stance. What can you offer me?

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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby cacogen » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:22 am #574155

How do we bring veganism to SS13?
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:38 am #574162

Indie-ana Jones wrote:Considering your focus doesn't do anything doesn't have anything to offer strongly to Bagil, I'm not convinced in your stance. What can you offer me?


The one thing I actually have noticed is the inconsistency of rulings, and that's something I'd like to improve on. Most people do this through setting more precedents and making the rules more precise, but I think the actual solution is much firmer communication with admins. We barely use the server side adminnotices and communications anymore and I think that'd be an effective way to reduce the variance in rule interpretation and put focus on certain things.

My platform does include tgstation-wide changes, like anti-bigotry and faster appeal resolutions through admin delegation.
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby NikNakFlak » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:09 pm #574188

Although sticky has a certain level of stupid crazy sometimes, I'm actually somewhat interested in voting him quite high. What is wrong with me

I like his ideas and sticky has a way of implementing stuff however he possibly can. He does not give up ever.
I'm a bit bored of the status quo and want a shake up. Every single bullet/idea he has put forward in his original post, I agree with and while some have pushback (bigotry ban), I agree with his ideas, so I'm going to vote him.

He's active as fuck and I don't understand how and I don't understand what is wrong with him. He once even became mostly inactive in discord but kept adminning the servers like a machine including running events, which is the opposite of quite a few admins who use discord a lot but are inactive on the servers. He's also one of the few admins who I think really understands events on another level. Not all go as planned but he puts in an insane amount of effort so his ideas regarding them, I take as something he'll be very successful at.

I think sticky will do quite well in the player vote and has already been a headmin before but has matured a bit I think since his past terms.
He will be below Fatal on my ballot but still high up on my list, maybe even my second choice, I haven't fully thought it all out yet.

He might do some dumb stuff sometimes but I'm ready for some bigger changes. Just don't delete MSO's bot again.
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Blurbo
 
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:12 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Blurbo » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:56 am #574428

sticky will fuck up in someway like he did before,also him calling people he disagrees with klansmen doesnt exactly inspire support
good thing hes not the only admin candidate that says theyll remove gamer words
blurbo,professional (more) retard

OH MY GOD ITS ALL CONNECTED, BLURBO IS USING BIP TO POST ORANGES PROPAGANDA AND TURN PEOPLE INTO STRIPESOCKS SO THEY CAN GET FREE CODE LABOR

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Jin
 
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:01 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Jin » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:25 pm #574969

but can I say faggot....
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Stickymayhem
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:43 pm #574973

Jin wrote:but can I say faggot....


It's not a slur ban, it's a bigotry ban. Throwing that out once in a while isn't going to kill anyone, spamming it, talking about how certain kinds of people need to be killed, or how they're subhuman, degenerate etc. will prompt admins to tell you to knock it off and will eventually get you punished if you ignore warnings for crossing the line, like any of our rules.
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annoyinggreencatgirl
 
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:55 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:57 am #575117

Stickymayhem wrote:
Jin wrote:but can I say faggot....


It's not a slur ban, it's a bigotry ban. Throwing that out once in a while isn't going to kill anyone, spamming it, talking about how certain kinds of people need to be killed, or how they're subhuman, degenerate etc. will prompt admins to tell you to knock it off and will eventually get you punished if you ignore warnings for crossing the line, like any of our rules.
After MSO's post, you have highlighted this distinction a couple times now, but in this regard specifically what are you proposing that is radically different from our current rules? I'll admit my finger may not be on the community's pulse here because I have a ton of the discord channels muted, but I have definitely seen people catch fairly uncontroversial bans (in-game and discord) for calls to violence and over the top inflammatory statements.
You have stated your intent isn't to "ban slurs" but I haven't really seen you propose any concrete details on a "bigotry ban" that doesn't involve basically exactly that.

If your starting point on this is "don't say bad things about certain kinds of people" where will this begin and end? We can't call Americans fat idiots, we can't joke about the British having bad teeth, we can't say Russians are drunks, we can't call progressives soyboys, we can't call tradcons neo-nazis...?
A prominent SS13 server blanket bans people for calling people retards or cucks; is this something one could look forward to under your bigotry ban, or would you agree this is a little silly?

You may be skeptical about my intentions but I'm not trying to be combative here, I just find that this sort of rhetoric comes across very wishy washy and ultimately tends towards a fairly real and dumb slippery slope.

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Stickymayhem
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:11 pm #575178

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
Jin wrote:but can I say faggot....


It's not a slur ban, it's a bigotry ban. Throwing that out once in a while isn't going to kill anyone, spamming it, talking about how certain kinds of people need to be killed, or how they're subhuman, degenerate etc. will prompt admins to tell you to knock it off and will eventually get you punished if you ignore warnings for crossing the line, like any of our rules.
After MSO's post, you have highlighted this distinction a couple times now, but in this regard specifically what are you proposing that is radically different from our current rules? I'll admit my finger may not be on the community's pulse here because I have a ton of the discord channels muted, but I have definitely seen people catch fairly uncontroversial bans (in-game and discord) for calls to violence and over the top inflammatory statements.
You have stated your intent isn't to "ban slurs" but I haven't really seen you propose any concrete details on a "bigotry ban" that doesn't involve basically exactly that.

If your starting point on this is "don't say bad things about certain kinds of people" where will this begin and end? We can't call Americans fat idiots, we can't joke about the British having bad teeth, we can't say Russians are drunks, we can't call progressives soyboys, we can't call tradcons neo-nazis...?
A prominent SS13 server blanket bans people for calling people retards or cucks; is this something one could look forward to under your bigotry ban, or would you agree this is a little silly?

You may be skeptical about my intentions but I'm not trying to be combative here, I just find that this sort of rhetoric comes across very wishy washy and ultimately tends towards a fairly real and dumb slippery slope.


Sure, I'd keep it specific to a ban on bigotry, making it against the rules to demean others based on race, gender, orientation, etc.The point is to specifically remove bigotry, with enforcement being focused on common sense. It is very much a natural extension of rule 1 but aimed at more consistent rulings so we avoid the issues on both ends we have now (e.g. an overly harsh ban for swastika station for a first offence, versus the commonplace discussion of genocide and white supremacy in ooc or deadchat on some servers). We can aim to stop both extremes with a more consistent way of ruling instead of leaving it entirely up to the admin. It is not a word filter or a word ban. All our current rules are applied with common sense, and we can trust admins to abide by it, or for our fairly robust systems of accountability to ensure it's applied properly.

If you don't trust admins to apply rules this nuanced, then you don't trust them to apply any of our nuanced rules. If you don't trust them to apply any of our rules, then you have bigger problems with the administration than the scope of this discussion can reasonably engage with.

Cuck and retard are fine, and being mean to people based on nationality is generally not directly comparable to racism. You can be mean to each other, you can disrespect admins, just don't use ooc to platform actual genocide and talk about races of people being subhuman and needing killing. There's plenty of places to do that that aren't here, and we gain no benefit from maintaining it.
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tumesuo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:53 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby tumesuo » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:44 pm #575190

Ok but did u join bagel and say something along the lines of "At least my schools don't get shot up" or something like that by uploading voice clips.

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Stickymayhem
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Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 am #575273

tumesuo wrote:Ok but did u join bagel and say something along the lines of "At least my schools don't get shot up" or something like that by uploading voice clips.


yeah someone asked me to record that voice line for them and I played it
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Space Panda
 
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:22 pm
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Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Space Panda » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:03 am #575276

best boi never gets what he deserves :cry:

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Stickymayhem
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: A Vote for Sticky is a Vote for Anarchy

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:29 pm #575321

Space Panda wrote:best boi never gets what he deserves :cry:


didn't I? ;)
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