Moderator: oranges
BrawlerHorde wrote:What do you personally think of the current administration team?
What could they do better?
What do you think of the first headmin-elect, Domitius?
actioninja wrote:Write a stronger core ruleset that is clearer to players and more flexible and evolvable as the game and server culture shift in ways we could not have imagined.
ArcaneDefence wrote:I've seen you need to step back from the discord before, and on one instance it caused a mess of speedmerged self-merge revert, then a speedmerge revert of that revert, and the original feature coder... putting back up a revert of the feature they coded.
Do you believe you can push for precedent shattering change while working with Domitius and another headmin without needing to step back from the community or having any blowback events that are similar?
It's been well known to me about your open distaste for the ruleset and perhaps how it is enforced, do you believe such a dramatic upheaval would lead to conflict with you and the team itself? What do you intend to do to handle animosity in a team with people at odds with you in that circumstance?
PKPenguin321 wrote:I think I best know you for your work on the code, which sadly means that most players don't know you and admins are less inclined to vote for you. I don't expect you to win, but I think you're an alright fella even if we've disagreed before and if you do win that'll be alright with me
Rohesie wrote:I hear this kind of proposal every time, be it more specific like escalation, or more general like here, but it rarely translates from an abstract ideal into something concrete.
Can you offer at least a bullets-point summary of the kind of rules you want to implement?
Is there any other SS13 server with rules you deem good, to be emulated?
Naloac wrote:Since you have asked for a *community opinion* and im the player voted admin. Ill give you my official opinion straight from the *community* Your fucking retarded
actioninja wrote:Majority are well meaning at the very least. I don't like how some only seem to stick around to use it as a friends club and to stir up drama.
Transparency and consistency. So much controversy could be avoided if the frankly normally pretty unexciting and menial shit that most people don't ever see was just shown.
Don't really agree with some of their takes but everything I've seen points to they actually give a shit and would do the best they can. That's all you really can hope for out of someone you work with.
It's not exactly an uncommon belief among a good amount that the discord server is moderated quite poorly, and in one instance I can recall actively being mocked for not supporting quite literal white supremacist views. That shit's not cool even as "trolling."
Stickymayhem wrote:It's not exactly an uncommon belief among a good amount that the discord server is moderated quite poorly, and in one instance I can recall actively being mocked for not supporting quite literal white supremacist views. That shit's not cool even as "trolling."
You've declared that you're the only one willing to truly enact unpopular policy that you believe will improve the community.
But you complain that the discord server is poorly moderated and is developing an issue with white supremacy to the extent that you, a reasonable person who has contributed plenty to the community has repeatedly been driven to leave.
Given these two things, isn't it contradictory not to make removing bigotry from the server part of your platform? Because it seems like you've avoided the issue despite clearly having an opinion on it.
XDTM wrote:Stickymayhem wrote:It's not exactly an uncommon belief among a good amount that the discord server is moderated quite poorly, and in one instance I can recall actively being mocked for not supporting quite literal white supremacist views. That shit's not cool even as "trolling."
You've declared that you're the only one willing to truly enact unpopular policy that you believe will improve the community.
But you complain that the discord server is poorly moderated and is developing an issue with white supremacy to the extent that you, a reasonable person who has contributed plenty to the community has repeatedly been driven to leave.
Given these two things, isn't it contradictory not to make removing bigotry from the server part of your platform? Because it seems like you've avoided the issue despite clearly having an opinion on it.
While not posted here, he did give a detailed answer on the gamer word thread
viewtopic.php?p=573708#p573708
Most headmins and candidates I feel are highly pandering. I don't know if it's the elected position, desire to be reelected or what, but I have seen and felt a lot of action to be taken with the intent of crowd pleasing over meaningful action.
As everyone knows from how much redditors hate coderbus, we're no strangers to love making controversial decisions. I am more than willing to stand by things that receive initial kneejerks or public outcry to wait and see their long term effects, and also feel no need to be performative. I will do what I think is ultimately best for the server's long term health and player experience, pissbabies be damned.
wesoda25 wrote:I know you said you’d want to rework the rules based on discussion and community input, but could you please give some specific examples of rules/policies/precedents that you aren’t happy with, and how you personally would rework them? Or examples where you would “soften” a formerly iron-clad rule?
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:which rule do you consider bad?
ArcaneDefence wrote:Ok, so if the idea is less so to immediately trash all prior precedent and instead change the spirit of some of the rules we have how do you believe you'd handle being met with your peers locking you out of doing any of that?
How would you go about removing conflict in the staff itself while preserving how it plays while also removing the policy around it?
Is that just defining what "being a dick" is?
Jack7D1 wrote:Will you be running for headmin next term?
Stickymayhem wrote:They did. It's still not part of their platform and they've still not said anything about any intended changes related to it. Clearly they have a strong belief in one direction, but are not explcitly stating it for one reason or another in their platform or in that candidate debate thread.
If they aren't being explicit because they fear it'll be unpopular and they'll lose votes from a certain portion of the playerbase then that brings into question this:Most headmins and candidates I feel are highly pandering. I don't know if it's the elected position, desire to be reelected or what, but I have seen and felt a lot of action to be taken with the intent of crowd pleasing over meaningful action.
As everyone knows from how much redditors hate coderbus, we're no strangers to love making controversial decisions. I am more than willing to stand by things that receive initial kneejerks or public outcry to wait and see their long term effects, and also feel no need to be performative. I will do what I think is ultimately best for the server's long term health and player experience, pissbabies be damned.
If they aren't being explicit because they think a ban on bigotry would not be the effective solution to dealing with this issue that they themselves acknowledged does exist, I'd like to hear their alternative, or reasons why this would be a bad decision, and therefore not one they are willing to make.
If they just forgot to add it, then as someone to whom this is a core concern, I'd be happier if they did make a clear statement on it.
actioninja wrote:Ironically "don't be a dick" isn't actually that bad because it's so flexible. A serious flaw with the way our rules are currently treated is that rule 0 and rule 1 both exist but for some reason the exact definitions of the rest of them are argued about forever.
An issue I take with the rest of the core rules is that so many of them are hyper-specific and not generalized to overall behavior. Core rules should be just that, core rules. They should govern your behavior at all times and your general mentality you should take to avoid even really having to worry about what they say. Our rules currently fail to do that. Most of them are the opposite, and most of the policy is the opposite even worse.
Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules, ...
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. ...
actioninja wrote:I get the feeling this is intended as a gotcha more than a legitimate want to know more, but the primary reason I didn't take any kind of focus on bigotry is that any large scale change you're already fighting an uphill battle.
As much as I wish a lot of the total losers that have decided to hang around here would just fuck off already, I also know that even a server without quite as much of a "storied" history like bee can have pretty serious fallout from action taken in this manner. It's not really about the concern of "controversial" actions as much as it would be yet another uphill battle on top of existing difficult problems being tackled. I would genuinely consider it enough of a problem that you could probably focus entirely on hate and harassment for your platform and still not make meaningful ground by the end of a term. It's a pathetic reality that I have to pick and choose battles when it comes to something like this, and ultimately some shitheads on the discord acting like tools doesn't strike me as being the issue to focus on.
All this being said, if it came down to a vote being made among headmins about bigotry, use of slurs, acceptable behavior, etc. I would absolutely be voting in favor of removing hateful behavior from the community. I don't find any of the arguments against doing so to be very strong.
EDIT: as a bit of an addendum, I don't think blanket banning slurs would even be an effective solution even if I do support it. There's deeper rooted issues besides just that.
Stickymayhem wrote:It's a bit of a gotcha, for sure. I feel like there's a contradiction here between "I'll do unpopular stuff I believe in" and "I have to pick and choose battles when it comes to something like this". The gotcha is intended to get you to add an issue I care about to your platform, rather than as an epic political win against an opponent.
You'll notice that the issue is being discussed as anti-bigotry rather than anti-slur. No one is intending to do a nazi purge, anyone should be able to play, but we're (the candidates that have made this part of their platform policy) targeting that hatespeech because this is not the environment for it. There's a million places to talk about that shit, only one place to play tgstation.
I feel like you're examining this issue as "I want to stop bigoted thought" when the reality is we just want this to stop being a safe space for the discussion and promotion of bigotry. You are an important member of the community who has contributed countless changes and yet you yourself said you left because of the white supremacist bullshit. You are precisely the kind of person I want to keep around and for every one of you who decides to tolerate it enough to stay, we probably lose several more that can't reconcile a fun game to contribute to and play with and a hotbed of nazi ideology, slurs and bigotry.
The headmin term is 6 months, I think it's well suited to focusing on a couple of key big projects you want to add to the server, and this next term I'd like this to be that project. I think it's more valuable than deleting and resetting the rules, I think it's more important to the game itself and I think it's important for the long term health of the community.
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If your platform is “I’m not going to do vague pandering like the other candidates” why is your policy list just a carbon copy of the vague populist pandering from last years headmin elections?
Limey wrote:its too late.
actionninja wrote:Public viewable discord channels for standard administrative related discussion (note that private channels will still be employed for situations involving sensitive information, however uncommon or common they may be
actioninja wrote:Transparency and consistency. So much controversy could be avoided if the frankly normally pretty unexciting and menial shit that most people don't ever see was just shown.
Don't really agree with some of their takes but everything I've seen points to they actually give a shit and would do the best they can. That's all you really can hope for out of someone you work with.
Agux909 wrote:Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.
Timonk wrote:are you gonna put in a no no word filter rule like sticky?
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Do you see this as at all incongruent? Our first and presumably most important rule is "don't be a dick" and "seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification", but simultaneously you're generally allowed to steal crucially important things from people, inconvenience their job (both shitsec and conversely tiders messing with sec/command come to mind), generally make their time considerably less fun at your leisure, and if they retaliate with violence they are afforded no help from the administration, and unless you go legendarily and consistently overboard with it you're fairly unlikely to get in trouble for it. Do you think how escalation is handled at present is ideal, and if not, what would you push to change about it?
Qbopper wrote:The bit about redoing the rules is definitely interesting and I'm on board to hear more, but yeah, it is sort of silly to claim you're not going to vaguely pander while also not actually providing any concrete information beyond "let's just nuke it all and start over"
Also, as much as people seem to love transparency among the admin team as a concept, I'd argue that we need some more transparency between head admins and the admin team before we start worrying about if players should be able to see adminbus arguing over a picture of a dog; do you have anything in mind there? I don't want to be rude but it does sort of seem like pandering to players when you include admin transparency yet don't touch on that subject at all; oftentimes major decisions are randomly dropped in the lap of admins
Booktower wrote:I appreciate your take on this. However, the /tg/-community has always had plenty of people stirring shit and blowing things way out of proportion. Judging by your history as a contributor/maintainer it doesn't seem to affect YOU personally but it certainly affects most other people.
If anything, your proposal would increase controversy and admin burnout. Admins would be less likely to chime in with their opinion on an issue in a publicly viewable channel due to the publicity, particularly if said opinion is controversial. I've certainly seen my fair share of controversial cases in which adminbus opinion was split.
Independent of that, how would you actually enforce this? In my opinion we will still need a private casual channel for goofing around(i. e. current #admin-chatter, minus the administrative discussions that happen there). Discord doesn't let you move messages, moving a conversation to a public channel or from a private channel feels like it will be extremely annoying for anyone reading up on it afterwards.
Fikou wrote:when wiill the pool open
terranaut wrote:i've expressed a positive opinion about your platform to some friends most of which said you are a bad pick because you ragequit every now and then and just leave the server behind
what do you say about this?
actioninja wrote:ArcaneDefence wrote:I've seen you need to step back from the discord before, and on one instance it caused a mess of speedmerged self-merge revert, then a speedmerge revert of that revert, and the original feature coder... putting back up a revert of the feature they coded.
Do you believe you can push for precedent shattering change while working with Domitius and another headmin without needing to step back from the community or having any blowback events that are similar?
It's been well known to me about your open distaste for the ruleset and perhaps how it is enforced, do you believe such a dramatic upheaval would lead to conflict with you and the team itself? What do you intend to do to handle animosity in a team with people at odds with you in that circumstance?
I've left the discord a total of three times I believe? Two of which were due to what I felt and still feel were pretty unacceptable of behavior that wasn't being acted at all upon by server administration. It's not exactly an uncommon belief among a good amount that the discord server is moderated quite poorly, and in one instance I can recall actively being mocked for not supporting quite literal white supremacist views. That shit's not cool even as "trolling."
The third case was a bit different and was a pretty big meltdown on my part due to a combo of a lot of factors including stress, sleep deprivation, and some personal matters at the time. I'm feeling a lot more stable as of recent and don't think I am going to make similar mistakes any time soon. I wouldn't be running otherwise.
Blurbo wrote:"RULES BAD,ONLY ME KNOW RULES GOOD UNLIKE YOU"
>ragequits frequently,blames it on muh racists
>literally just goof but worse in all aspects
>spam the merge and unmerge button
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