RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Discuss policies and candidacies with the potential Headmins.

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Qustinnus
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:08 am #592401

RaveRadbury wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:also on a sidenote, the fact that you mention the remakes as a competitor is a meme. I think most of the coders will jump ship to ss14 at some point (if development doesn't suddenly stop), and at that point your culture and community wont mean much.

Gotta admit, Qust, your feedback here definitely has me shaken. Is the SS14 codebase going to be monolithic, or will it be able to splinter like current SS13 codebases? I'd like to think that leaving an established community of familiar faces comes with its share of drawbacks. If you decide to jump ship, I'll miss you.

You can just downstream like we once did for TG, once enough people from /TG/ hop ship and a downstream geared for a new TG starts, I will probably jump as well. The engine and codebase are too damned to really do a lot of the things we'd like to do.



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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:19 am #592407

Qustinnus wrote:You can just downstream like we once did for TG, once enough people from /TG/ hop ship and a downstream geared for a new TG starts, I will probably jump as well. The engine and codebase are too damned to really do a lot of the things we'd like to do.

Sounds like the community will be able to migrate then. This is a relief. Thank you for the information, Qust.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby cacogen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:42 am #592412

RaveRadbury wrote:
Malkraz wrote:what does "better" enforcement of Rule 11 mean

It means that usage of slurs outside of the context of serious discussion, such as shouting them alone in a vacuum, are bigoted.

But that's wrong. Have we learned nothing from the works of Joanne Rowling? "Fear of the word increases fear of the thing itself."
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:08 am #592444

cacogen please phrase your replies in this thread as a question to Rave, your particular opinion on if something is correct or not is hardly relevant, what matters is how Rave interprets it, just saying you're wrong does nothing to further the debate and frankly is pointless, vote on that with your vote, not your mouth.

if you want to shout about it, take it to the thread in general forum.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby YuiY1997 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:50 am #592456

A sizeable portion of the community were concerned with the addition of rule 11, not because it prevented the harassment of certain people, but because the term bigotry was a term able to be redefined in the future to include more behavior. What do you have to say to people that might be concerned about the implications of changing what is covered by the bigotry rule to include non-targeted slurs?

I for one don't think there's a lot of benefit to being able to scream "nigger" for no reason but it's no secret that there's a large chunk of the community that might feel like their fears of a slippery slope have been justified. I'd like to give you the chance to win some of these people over.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby cacogen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 am #592498

Rave, why is saying a slur inherently bigoted regardless of the context or intent? Don't you think making a word off-limits just sensitises people to it and strengthens it for the use of people who intend to hurt? Wouldn't a better outcome be that a word is used to the point of mass desensitisation and losing its original meaning, such as how the use of a word like damn no longer holds the offense it used to (other than to red state retards and old people of course)?
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby WineAllWine » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:01 am #592508

I've spoken to rave about some concerns I've had about notes as punishment, and they really seemed to recognise and alleviate some of my concerns (largely the ones I shared with Timber about notes-as-leniency*)

Rave's Definitely going to be in amongst the top of my ballot sheet.

*(notes-the-leniency is a good name for a lizard)

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby XDTM » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am #592523

I really appreciate the policy of making the server culture more approachable, since i definitely belong in the group of people who would've loved to show off a very interesting and complex game to their friends, but also didn't want to be associated with people casually throwing slurs around.

Rave's got my vote.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:45 pm #592534

I feel like condensing down the issue to "ban slurs == friendly and approachable tg" is something that at best is child-like.

we have enough people in the community who manage to be toxic without using slurs, and who make people feel unwelcome just fine without using any colorful language, do you have any plans to work on those problems in the community?

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:02 pm.
Reason: opinion and not asking the candidate anything

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Rohen_Tahir » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:06 pm #592536

Rave, how do you plan to handle things like the anti-polish and/or anti-mexican and/or anti-irish slur "potato"?

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:30 pm #592606

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:I hope you don't mind me asking why do you insist on a word ban while also insisting on not having a list?

It looks like you're trying to double dip between the word ban crowd and "of course it isn't a word ban that would be too much". Where a more concrete position would be more appreciated, if possibly not as popular.

I like you as a candidate because you're one of the nicer individuals running, I just don't like this encouragement of vague policy - part of why rp enforcement is often contested.


My hands are tied on any sort of idea of a ban list because the host has said that we will not have a word ban list. If his mind changes on that, or if I misunderstood and we can have a word ban list, I would consider the option. You and other community members have brought up this idea, so it seems like there is some preference for it. In the meantime, we do have precedents for common-sense application, we do have a ban appeal forum (that frequently assists policy), and I do not plan on handing out instant bans for someone saying a word, as per our Rule 11 enforcement guidelines: "It's ok to give somebody a warning or a lighter punishment at first and crack down harder if they keep it up."

I'm sorry if this response doesn't meet your desired outcome, I assure you that I am trying to walk this tightrope as best I can.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:10 pm #592615

No no, that is a more illuminating answer, thank you Rave.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:03 pm #592626

Again, reminder, restrain your self to asking questions of the candidate, your opinion on their opinions is reflected when you vote, or can be posted in the general forum thread.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:17 am #592700

cacogen wrote:Rave, why is saying a slur inherently bigoted regardless of the context or intent? Don't you think making a word off-limits just sensitises people to it and strengthens it for the use of people who intend to hurt? Wouldn't a better outcome be that a word is used to the point of mass desensitisation and losing its original meaning, such as how the use of a word like damn no longer holds the offense it used to (other than to red state retards and old people of course)?

This is a great question to ask, cacogen, and I'm really glad you did.

To start off, let's take a look at common obscenities: fuck, shit, ass, damn, hell. These are not really associated in any way with race. You're right to point out that these words don't hold the same level of offense as they might have in the past. The issue here is that these words have broad application and do not apply to a specific group of minority peoples. Seeing as slurs are specific words that were used against minority groups, and we can agree now that using those words against them are bad, it would then make sense to say that it's not really the place of anyone but the affected group to decide when the word is to be desensitized. What's more, I am not suggesting that these words never be said, only that they be said under appropriate circumstances.

You might say then, "But I am a member of this minority group, and I say to everyone here that they have my permission to use this word." Firstly, this would require a verification of your minority status, which is a terrible idea, we are internet janitors for a spaceman game not some sort of idpol verification squad. It's way outside the scope of our work and is in really bad taste. Second, if another member of the same group were to attempt to engage the space, feel discomfort and then express it, not only would there be issues of others taunting them with "X said I can say it so its fine." but additionally who are you to speak on behalf of an entire group, when there are clearly members of the group in general society that would prefer not to hear such things said. (Of course, to say then, "Where are these discomforted minority peoples?" is to ask someone to identify their minority status, which will then risk being doubted and ridiculed by the community. A tremendous amount of effort for a small request of manners and politeness. Why stick around for it?)

Additionally, while it wouldn't kill anyone to be called a slur, its straightforward common sense that this isn't even something that should be coming up in the content of our spaceman game, it is unpleasant to see and experience. Of course people are going to experience slurs directed at them in their life, I just don't see why we need to have that happen here as well.

Thank you for taking the time to engage my campaign my thread.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Rohen_Tahir » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:44 am #592757

RaveRadbury wrote:Additionally, while it wouldn't kill anyone to be called a slur, its straightforward common sense that this isn't even something that should be coming up in the content of our spaceman game, it is unpleasant to see and experience. Of course people are going to experience slurs directed at them in their life, I just don't see why we need to have that happen here as well.

That's the current scope of the rule.
Can you justify your approach too?

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Qustinnus » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 pm #592780

do you consider cunt and trap (when used to refer to a crossdresser) slurs? (i'm asking because people have bitched about it before)

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Malkraz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:37 pm #592789

Qustinnus wrote:do you consider cunt and trap (when used to refer to a crossdresser) slurs? (i'm asking because people have bitched about it before)

This bit
RaveRadbury wrote:As for admin enforcement, like all other forms of admin work, these are done at the discretion of the admin. You don't want to enforce the rule? I can't make you, and I'm not about to try and force you. There however are admins who would like to enforce it and I would like to empower them to do so.

and the insistence of a lack of list of banned words under the mantra of "common sense" seems to imply what is considered a slur is entirely up to the specific admin banning you. The reason "common sense" enforcement currently works is precisely because OOC and targeted use SPECIFICALLY are punished.
If there is no standardized set of what words are considered bigoted slurs, how will the ban appeals process actually help the player as you claim it will? If we disregard non-targeted intent, what makes one word more valid for punishment than the other?
EDIT: I'd also like to hear your thoughts on some form of player-sided word filter which could probably help us avoid 90% of this mess on the in-game side.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby cacogen » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:09 am #592908

I know damn isn't a slur (I couldn't think of a slur that no longer holds the offense it once did, maybe idiot). But the principle that words lose their original offensiveness through use beside their original meaning is exemplified by words like damn.

You're right that there's never going to be a consensus between the people who a word affects on the cases where it's acceptable to use. So thinking about it in those terms won't amount to anything.

What are the appropriate circumstances you think a slur can be said under on /tg/station? Is it worth losing players and the backlash against the server from the wider SS13 playerbase to prevent people from saying slurs regardless of context or intent?

I don't want my post to get deleted by sharing my opinion but to clarify where I'm coming from I agree that people shouldn't have to deal with the type of abuse and mistreatment they experience in real life on the basis of identity here where it can be readily prevented.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:24 am.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:23 am.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:59 am #592949

YuiY1997 wrote:A sizeable portion of the community were concerned with the addition of rule 11, not because it prevented the harassment of certain people, but because the term bigotry was a term able to be redefined in the future to include more behavior. What do you have to say to people that might be concerned about the implications of changing what is covered by the bigotry rule to include non-targeted slurs?

I for one don't think there's a lot of benefit to being able to scream "nigger" for no reason but it's no secret that there's a large chunk of the community that might feel like their fears of a slippery slope have been justified. I'd like to give you the chance to win some of these people over.

There are two things that I would say to the community members that might be concerned with these changes:
  • I am not looking to remove anyone from the community over it
  • There will be positive benefits from this, one of which is an increase in population overall
I realize that other servers have "zero tolerance" policies on slurs. I am not looking to introduce a zero tolerance policy. For clarity, I would like to post our Rule 11 Enforcement Guidelines

Rule 11 (Bigotry) Enforcement Guidelines wrote:When deciding rather or not to enforce this rule on a player, as well as how severe of an enforcement, please concider the following questions:

  • Are they expressing hatred or intolerance toward a protected group (race, sex, gender, orientation (note: both majorities and minorities count))?
  • How likely are they to know that their actions/words are expressing hatred or intolerance toward a protected group?
  • Assuming they read and remember the rules, how likely are they to make the connection that their conduct is not allowed? (Not all of our players come from first world country with a culture that places an emphasis on promoting tolerance and sensitivity)
  • Have they tried to previously claim instances were accidental references but they just keep accidentally being a bigot?
It's ok to give somebody a warning or a lighter punishment at first and crack down harder if they keep it up.

And finally, remember, the goal is to remove the 'expression' of bigotry from the community, not to establish a thought crime against bigots, they can feel how ever they want as long as they can keep it to themselves.


Take the above in consideration of my philosophy and platform point of "Correction/discussion over notes/bans": I do not seek to diminish the community by expelling anyone for saying a word. Should someone say something that violates Rule 11, a talk should happen. It shouldn't be an instant ban. That would be terrible. Consider also that I will be a headmin weighing in on any ban appeals over this.
I would not want to lose community members over this. I believe that we can all successfully operate under better Rule 11 enforcement. I believe that it will be worth it.

I'd also like to address the idea of "slippery slope". Words that are considered offensive are largely deemed so by society at large. These values change over time. I seek not to put some all-consuming obsessive list together of things that can't be said, instead I seek to have our public community meet the level of what is deemed offensive by society at large. Some people are inflexible to these kinds of shifts in society and manners, they are welcome to keep the values that they were raised with, as is their right to their sense of self. However, the community is not an individual person, it's a public community of peoples of varying demographics. We are subject to the pressures of polite society, and it is healthy and beneficial in the long run that we move and grow as the world around us does.

Thank you for taking the time to engage my thread, yuiy. I hope it was able to provide you with what you were looking for.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Swept » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 am #592951

RaveRadbury - Will these versions allow for our current open-source contribution model to exist and thrive?

For SS14 everything is open-source, as well as our engine. Open-source contribution will be even stronger with SS14.
RaveRadbury - If we can simply transplant to one without needing to have any changes in maintainers or admin team, will contributing to this new codebase be easier or harder than BYOND?

SS14 is written in C# which will require tgstation's maintainers to learn it and hopefully understand best practices to contribute in the capacity they do now.
RaveRadbury - Currently though, these remain threats on the horizon and not something that I think we have to make any large action against aside from ensuring that the community remains healthy and growing.

This is the case for SS14. It'll likely be another year before i'd advise tgstation looking seriously to us for a MVP to begin poking in our guts.

Feel free to nuke as it's a little irrelevant but SS14 recently transitioned to a much more rigid policy on saying slurs/ironic racism as some of our coders and potential contributors were being driven away by it. I think if tgstation does put their chips in with one of the remakes you'll find much more success banning that kind of stuff as from my experience even the notion of slurs drives some people off, especially the newer people coming into the SS13 community with the increasing hopes of it getting off Byond.

On the other-hand you might lose some contributors/players who don't share the same opinion. If you do want to do "field-research" as you say, feel free to dm me on Discord with any questions.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:38 am #592955

Swept's post provides important factual information in regards to my platform, and I would like to request that it remains, especially considering his position in the SS14 project.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Korusho » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:47 am #592961

How do you plan to encourage more interesting RP scenarios in Manuel, and to further encourage RP in general among players that frequent the server, if at all? Do you believe that Manuel is in a good state of play currently, considering how most rounds turn out at times?

Are you in favor of GM/Admin round intervention when rounds grow too stale, or do you prefer players to drive round content? How do you feel about players bending the rules to drive rounds when they lack antag roles?

In the same vein, do you personally prefer to see well thought out events, or ad-hoc scenarios? Do you want to foster a more thought driven environment, or a reactionary ad-lib one?

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Sylphet » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:29 am #592970

RaveRadbury wrote:A comfortable environment with reduced toxicity

Community members put so much time contributing to this game and playing it to have to add a bunch of caveats and warnings to the project they have dedicated themselves to before showing it to their IRL friends. Have you ever wanted to tell someone about this game, but held back because of the kinds of behaviors and things that are said around here? I think that’s a shame, and I would like to change that.


I haven't told friends about ss13 for this exact reason, the community can appear very hostile from the things that are said and commonly accepted, like how often slurs are thrown around, in isolation, for no real reason. It can be hard to know what outsiders think of our community since they, you know - aren't part of it or here to share their thoughts. But my experience is that our community has such a casual approach to slurs that people who could have fallen in love with the game and become members of the community are instead made uncomfortable and disconnect in dorms, never touching the game again. Not even current players are immune to this, I've personally been made very uncomfortable by things said IC and nearly everyone I know has some bad story of their own and would like change. Remember that not every community member reads the forums and I think that they need to be heard - because I know that even if it's not said often, the experience of « eh its just slurs, it's whatever » is not universal at all. Rave has my full support in this and I'm excited to see how they're going to do this.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:43 pm #593111

The subject of toxicity and casual slur dropping has also kept me largely from telling people my wider involvement in this community. Many people I know who would love the idea and concepts behind SS13, but wouldn't be comfortable with the level of toxic behaviour and slur usage in the game, and would be rather appalled to know that was being largely enabled I suppose. It doesn't help we carry the /tg/ connection despite having cut ties a long time back, and in-game behaviour like that is not helping things. If we lose people over it because they migrate to another server, that's honestly their call and they can do whatever they want. If that's the choice they made, that's the choice they made.

I've introduced one person to the game, and they actually left for Paradise instead because they just didn't like how often people were dropping shit like the n-word. It just gave the impression that everyone on the server was hostile and unwelcoming, and this aggressive language was to wean out anyone who couldn't stand to listen to someone literally say a slur every sentence. Those people do exist, and they take to the point of absurdity. There is also one or two instances where I've known people to have been targeted in-game because their character is dark skinned. I myself have somehow avoided that but maybe it's because people focus on my character (Sheness, not the one in my pfp) being a cat more than black, iunno. These people do exist, they're just hiding in amongst the edgy dipshits screaming every slur under the sun to look cool amongst the other edgy dweebs.

We have a rule 11/discord rule 12 now, but it's a blanket statement about targeted acts of bigotry and not really an attempt to stamp out the behaviour. Enough people have normalized this language to the point where someone throwing around stuff like 'tranny' or what have you is supposedly 'server culture' and not actually acting as a smokescreen to get away with the same behaviour those rules claim to prevent.

But it has to be with consistent enforcement too. The name policy enforcement got thrown out the fucking window the moment people who should have been in positions of authority equally started to flaunt the rules and openly among the players when given the chance. Granted, it wasn't very well implemented, but it was also not very widely enforced outside of the first few months Nervere pushed it. I would hope anythng you do to this effect, Rave, is also held to standard amongst the admin team. They're the community faces, and they need to act like it too. If admins are doing something, that's a signal to players that they can do it as well. Or else the admins look like hypocrites, which is not a good look at all.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:56 pm #593118

Qustinnus wrote:I feel like condensing down the issue to "ban slurs == friendly and approachable tg" is something that at best is child-like.

we have enough people in the community who manage to be toxic without using slurs, and who make people feel unwelcome just fine without using any colorful language, do you have any plans to work on those problems in the community?

I think enforcement of Rule 11 has paid dividends in this regard already (of course our lovely discord verification system has done a lot of work, too).

If someone's being toxic and driving people away we should talk with them. We should treat them with respect and consideration, and try to figure out where they are coming from. As I've said in my platform, having a discussion about things with a community member can frequently be a positive and fruitful experience.

You're making a great point here, and I admit that I don't have an easy answer to it. I'm going to keep a close eye on the forums, because that has generally been a space of big toxicity. I'm going to talk with people, players and admins. We're all here to have a good time, right?
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Rohen_Tahir » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:32 pm #593123

In what ways, if any, will the "comfortable and safe enviroment" thing affect library books?

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Dr. Aura » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:15 am #593129

I crawled my happy ass out of month 10 of federal orders just to offer my support to this candidate.
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PostThis post was deleted by Man_Shroom on Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby stewydeadmike » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:11 pm #593240

Toxicity has been one of the biggest issues I've had with TG ever since I've started playing like 2-3 years ago and has slowly killed off my motivation to actually play, attempt to contribute to the game, and certainly has made me hesitant to actually talk to others about it. So I'm grateful to finally see it addressed and fully support Rave in this election.

PostThis post was deleted by Timonk on Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:49 pm.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Timonk » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:56 pm #593254

How do you plan on "purging the toxicity" apart from banning slurs period
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Horza » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:38 pm #593266

If your aim is really to make /tg/station a place you can tell your friends about, what will you do about hardcoded things that can potentially be offensive in the codebase? Headmins have no influence on the codebase, as we've been so oft told, yes? Then how can you modify such offensive things as the emagged Beepsky messages, amongst other such offensive language? If someone takes offense to such messages, how will you handle these incidents if you have no power over the codebase other than a response of "it'll be changed when you code it" as is the standard response?
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:15 pm #593277

I don't know if you play much Terry, but frankly there's a proud culture of toxicity there, embedded in how a significant proportion of the community play the game there. I'm talking extremely toxic IC behaviour and conduct which isn't against the rules but makes the server unappealling to normies.

Do you have any intention of solving this as part of your attempt at making the place acceptable to the mainstream? Can you?

Also just for me can you answer this question in the non political speak it gives me the heebie jeebies i get it and it doesn't make you bad it just spooks me thank you Rave.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:09 am #593284

Timonk wrote:How do you plan on "purging the toxicity" apart from banning slurs period

this has been covered extensively, your question has no real merit

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:13 am #593285

Horza wrote:If your aim is really to make /tg/station a place you can tell your friends about, what will you do about hardcoded things that can potentially be offensive in the codebase?

we are already required to remove them by the github ToS, so its' irrelevant

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Horza » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:31 am #593288

oranges wrote:
Horza wrote:If your aim is really to make /tg/station a place you can tell your friends about, what will you do about hardcoded things that can potentially be offensive in the codebase?

we are already required to remove them by the github ToS, so its' irrelevant

Negative.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/tgsta ... insult.ogg
In before you delete this post because it's not a question even though your post isn't either.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:48 am #593292

A single distorted vox line is not in any way as serious an issue as you're making it out to be, there is no risk of conflict between Rave's platform and the codebase. I trust you'll not derail this thread with further unfounded speculation.

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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Horza » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:17 am #593305

oranges wrote:A single distorted vox line is not in any way as serious an issue as you're making it out to be, there is no risk of conflict between Rave's platform and the codebase. I trust you'll not derail this thread with further unfounded speculation.

I will make one more post in the hopes that Rave will answer earnestly, and just as a microcosm of the potentially offensive things in the codebase.

As per the thread title and topic, in what universe is a robot commonly saying (and I quote from the code directly) "FUCK YOUR CUNT YOU SHIT EATING COCKSTORM AND EAT A DONG FUCKING ASS RAMMING SHIT FUCK EAT PENISES IN YOUR FUCK FACE AND SHIT OUT ABORTIONS OF FUCK AND POO AND SHIT IN YOUR ASS YOU COCK FUCK SHIT MONKEY FUCK ASS WANKER FROM THE DEPTHS OF SHIT." in both vox and text (above the robot in question) an event that you can truly say "Yup, I want to tell my friends about this server and codebase, they won't get offended by this in any way, and will find it an acceptable play to stay and play in?" I'm not going to pretend that I'm not opposed to your proposed policies as currently described, and yet I'm still thrown off every time I hear an emagged securitron say this line. Same deal with the hygienebot, which seems to be incapable of not swearing. It's so incongruous to the somewhat-sanitized goals you're presenting. I'm genuinely curious about how you'll deal with these issues. My previous questions, nonwithstanding oranges' usual comments, still stand.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby CoffeeDragon16 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:18 am #593315

I think Rave's platform on making SS13 less of a... well, cringe thing speaks to me. I've actively avoided bringing it up, for reasons particularly like rule 11. I think it's frankly embarrassing that our anti-bigotry rule is as it is, and reducing toxicity into an environment where it isn't acceptable as it is is very important to TG's progression to me. I frequently see people that are actively not caring for others, knowingly worsening the game for others and being rude for far too long. I see people who are habitually degrading to the environment get away note after note, individual talk after talk without repercussion.This is not something I see often brought up in headmin elections, and I think it's commendable of Rave to not be playing it safe like so many have before. I am personally excited in hope Rave will win, and I've not much experience with them, given they are a MRP admin and I am not. I have personally been doing a lot of work for Basil in reducing toxicity and bigotry, and personally I have felt in the minority in these endeavors, with past headmins going against me at times. We need more people like Rave who are willing to deal with these issues like I am, and I think they could be a model headmin.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:53 am #593325

Horza wrote:
oranges wrote:A single distorted vox line is not in any way as serious an issue as you're making it out to be, there is no risk of conflict between Rave's platform and the codebase. I trust you'll not derail this thread with further unfounded speculation.

I will make one more post in the hopes that Rave will answer earnestly, and just as a microcosm of the potentially offensive things in the codebase.

As per the thread title and topic, in what universe is a robot commonly saying (and I quote from the code directly) "FUCK YOUR CUNT YOU SHIT EATING COCKSTORM AND EAT A DONG FUCKING ASS RAMMING SHIT FUCK EAT PENISES IN YOUR FUCK FACE AND SHIT OUT ABORTIONS OF FUCK AND POO AND SHIT IN YOUR ASS YOU COCK FUCK SHIT MONKEY FUCK ASS WANKER FROM THE DEPTHS OF SHIT." in both vox and text (above the robot in question) an event that you can truly say "Yup, I want to tell my friends about this server and codebase, they won't get offended by this in any way, and will find it an acceptable play to stay and play in?" I'm not going to pretend that I'm not opposed to your proposed policies as currently described, and yet I'm still thrown off every time I hear an emagged securitron say this line. Same deal with the hygienebot, which seems to be incapable of not swearing. It's so incongruous to the somewhat-sanitized goals you're presenting. I'm genuinely curious about how you'll deal with these issues. My previous questions, nonwithstanding oranges' usual comments, still stand.

there's a difference between saying "fuck you" and saying "fuck you nigger"
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:17 pm.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby MrAlphonzo » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:00 pm #593414

If notes are a punishment (they aren't, but let's pretend they are), wouldn't your reworking of how our records system works just make them even more of a punishment?

Removal of ban warnings just means that players will have no idea they're inching closer towards a ban, and will keep them out of the loop while the only people who know someone is inching towards a ban are talking about it in their secret INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower. This just seems like some misguided attempt to go easier on the players, but all it does is do the exact opposite.

If you plan on solving this by keeping ban warnings inside of admin-PMs, then that places an insanely unreasonable expectation on an administrator's ability to memorize individual interactions with countless other players, and also prevent other administrators from properly gauging how they should go about reprimanding somebody as they will not be fully informed on a players interactions with staff.
In addition to that, this worsens our problem on a total lack of punishment escalation that is phenomenally affecting our ability to administrate.

I honestly can't see how this is a good idea. It makes the lives of players and admins alike more difficult and accomplishes nothing.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:54 pm #593448

Rohen_Tahir wrote:Rave, how do you plan to handle things like the anti-polish and/or anti-mexican and/or anti-irish slur "potato"?

Hi Rohen, thank you for your question.

I looked around a bit to see how potato is used in slurs. I found three common uses that seem to fall in with the demographics you're discussing here.

  • One use of potato was a variant on the "X on the outside, white on the inside" slur, of which there are many variants. This is a critique of an individual's perceived physical body against their perceived behavior, in this case "Brown on the outside, white on the inside." I saw this being discussed in applications beyond Mexican to any brown-skinned individual.
    In this case the odds of it being used as a slur are incredibly context dependent, as you would need to have established perceived skin color against behavior.
  • In regards to anti-Polish language, I was only able to find references to "potato-chugger" as a reference to the use of potatoes in liquor distillation
  • In regards to anti-Irish language, potato was used as a prefix similar to the above anti-Polish discussion, but had many more instances, including "potato-nigger"
The only other example of potato being used as a slur on its own I could find beyond the first was in regards to it being potentially ableist.

With this in mind, we must ask ourselves, what sort of images are brought to mind with the evocation of this word, "potato"? When said on its own, do we envision the tuber itself, or do we think of it being used as an insult. When someone says "You are a potato" or says "My computer is a potato" or simply "potato", are they referring to any peoples, or are they referencing the starchy vegetable? Try this same exercise with "nigger", and see how that changes things.

There are of course many vague or little-known slurs. What constitutes a slur also changes with time. This is in part why a curated list of slurs is problematic, especially in the face of words like "potato" which could be used as a racial slur under certain circumstances. Thankfully we are all living breathing humans, able to use common sense and best judgment in our evaluation of things.

I very much appreciate that you brought up this ambiguity, Rohen, as it points out that there are some slurs that are most definitely slurs when used in a vacuum, because they don't have other, more common, meanings that could overtake them when said entirely on their own with no other context. Likewise, some slurs require further context, as in a vacuum they bring to mind a more commonly-used definition (or even have a different usage in the first place.) Of course, there are slurs on the other side of this, such as "dilate", which has become a recent putdown. This is anti-trans bigoted language, and when said in a vacuum it clearly has its negative connotations given the infrequency of its usage and its specific applications. Of course all of this is subject to common sense and context.



Seeing as my next question in the queue is also by you, I will address it here as well.

Rohen_Tahir wrote:
RaveRadbury wrote:Additionally, while it wouldn't kill anyone to be called a slur, its straightforward common sense that this isn't even something that should be coming up in the content of our spaceman game, it is unpleasant to see and experience. Of course people are going to experience slurs directed at them in their life, I just don't see why we need to have that happen here as well.

That's the current scope of the rule.
Can you justify your approach too?

The issue is that we are all online and are unable to verify (nor should we seek to verify) someone's identity. This means that anyone you direct a slur towards could potentially be a member of the group that the slur applies to. This was explained in the greater context of the post that you took this quote from, wherein I also established that being in the presence of a slur that would "usually" be applied to a specific demographic is an issue in itself as community members of that demographic can still see it and be affected by it (not to mention community members in general being put off by slurs), hence why "undirected" bigoted language is still a problem.

Additionally, a key difference between current policy and the quote you have chosen to compare it to is that in my quote I go further to say that calling anyone a slur is an issue as is being made to witness slurs. Neither of these cases are covered by our current interpretation. I justify that they should be because they are a net negative and they drive potential and active community members away.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:04 am #593501

Qustinnus wrote:do you consider cunt and trap (when used to refer to a crossdresser) slurs? (i'm asking because people have bitched about it before)

Hey again, Qust, thanks for another question.

Cunt has varying levels of severity across cultures. Conversations with community members have also indicated that problematic use of cunt is not immediately evident. Of course we also have examples of its usage in the codebase, all of which use it as a term of vulgarity or slang, rather than as a specific slur against women.

As for trap, that's a far more problematic term, we're all familiar with the common akbar meme reaction. That stuff's no good. Calling transpeople or crossdressers traps is unnecessary and frequently degrading + hurtful. It's a net negative.
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Re: RaveRadbury - /tg/station, a place you can tell your friends about

Postby RaveRadbury » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:16 am #593502

Malkraz wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:do you consider cunt and trap (when used to refer to a crossdresser) slurs? (i'm asking because people have bitched about it before)

This bit
RaveRadbury wrote:As for admin enforcement, like all other forms of admin work, these are done at the discretion of the admin. You don't want to enforce the rule? I can't make you, and I'm not about to try and force you. There however are admins who would like to enforce it and I would like to empower them to do so.

and the insistence of a lack of list of banned words under the mantra of "common sense" seems to imply what is considered a slur is entirely up to the specific admin banning you. The reason "common sense" enforcement currently works is precisely because OOC and targeted use SPECIFICALLY are punished.
If there is no standardized set of what words are considered bigoted slurs, how will the ban appeals process actually help the player as you claim it will? If we disregard non-targeted intent, what makes one word more valid for punishment than the other?
EDIT: I'd also like to hear your thoughts on some form of player-sided word filter which could probably help us avoid 90% of this mess on the in-game side.

Hi again, Malkraz.

I've made some examples in other posts about how some slurs are clearly problematic in a vacuum and others aren't. This largely has to do with whether they have secondary or tertiary definitions and what definition is most likely to be called when said in a vacuum. What's more, we've already done well with common sense in its current scope, broadening it to untargeted and casual use would not mean that the scope of affected language is broadened, only the qualifying usage. I am afraid I don't understand what you mean when you say that common sense only works in OOC and targeted use. If you think an admin banned or noted you for something they shouldn't have you are always welcome to make an appeal. Appeals help us shape and define policy.

Once again, the host does not allow a banned word list. Odds are that if you think a word might not be okay to say or use, you're probably on the right track and shouldn't use it.

As for your player-sided word filter, it would need to default to 'on' for everyone and incoming players, to be turned off at the user's discretion. This would require a wordlist, which I am not sure would be allowed. Additionally, this would not solve the issues of slurs on the forums or the discord.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:50 am.
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