Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

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Naloac
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Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:14 am #591859

Who

im Naloac aka Lepi Mewtera Terry player and admin with occasional visits to bagil.

What Before
1- Changing all servers to dynamic.
2- To continue to get more admin trainers + admin candidates.
3- To encourage giving certain players namely event runners the abilities to run their own custom events
4- I want our bans to be public.
5- I want to cut out inactive admins coming back to ban someone then going inactive again.

What Now
1- I want our bans to be public.
2-Split MRP into its own admin base like TGMC
3- I want to cut out inactive admins coming back to ban someone then going inactive again.
4- Id like to completely rewrite the admin training note as its become out of date

Why

1- I want our bans to be public.
To provide transparency in our systems id like to have all new bans to be public so players can know both what to look out for and to spot bad bans that may never end up being appealed and have them brought to the headmins, throughout my term I spent alot of time scrolling through all of the bans(/ being dm'd them) and checking to make sure they where not stretching the rules to fit a ban that it shouldnt have. Allowing players to see bans will both make this easier on headmins and mean more bad bans get spotted.

2-Split MRP into its own admin base like TGMC
Having the same adminbase as MRP for LRP means headmins who might only play on LRP will have to decide on policy for MRP which they might not as much as they try be in touch with. Going forward I believe MRP would be much better served going the TGMC route and splitting the admin base, Allowing MRP to go much further than LRP only headmins could take it. As proven before TGMC admins can be both TG admins and TGMC admins so current MRP / LRP admins could continue to stay as they normally would while also allowing them to build their own committed adminbase.

3- I want to continue the current work ive put in to this, we still have a decent portion of inactive admins that in my opinion should be deadminned for inactivity, or atleast have them retrained when they come back, having people come back after a large absence isnt great, I learnt the hard way when I got carpel tunnel that this game changes fast and in some ways this requires people who decide to become inactive to be helped forward.

4- The note that admin trainers use for training admins is becoming out of date, the buttons have moved, It doesnt include anything on dynamic and how it works and doesnt really fit into what we currently do as a server. Id like to remedy this by rewriting a large section of it. As im one of the most active admin trainers recently I think id be a great choice for this

Bye

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Cobby
 
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:17 am #591861

guys what if we had TG but MRP!!!

>>> not 3 headmin terms later

guys what if we had MRP but not ran by TG!!!

r* opinion, but u r based otherwise :)
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Hulkamania
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Hulkamania » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:45 am #591891

You have been the least public facing of all the headmins with regards to pushing for policy updates, making rulings, and the general book keeping side of things. If you're on the headmin team as a veteran the newer headmins will often look to you to fill in the more "active" roles until they become acclimated. Do you see yourself updating your administration style in the future, or do you intend to stay relatively in the background?

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Omega_DarkPotato » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:47 am #591893

cant wait for manuel to be disconnected from the main codebase so that we can finally stop having to worry about MRP code being written for a majority LRP server base cough cough I'm still spiteful at timberpoes' ID rework fuck that cough cough


Also, since "I want our bans to be public" has proven to be a hotly discussed topic, can you expand more on this?
Only perms? All types of bans? Why only NEW bans if your goal is to avoid rules being stretched to fit bans on places where they shouldn't have been?
If your goal is to stop bans being placed by admins who bend rules to give em, should the name of the banned player be hidden/obfuscated/whatever?
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Jaredfogle » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:49 am #591894

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:cant wait for manuel to be disconnected from the main codebase so that we can finally stop having to worry about MRP code being written for a majority LRP server base cough cough I'm still spiteful at timberpoes' ID rework fuck that cough cough


Headadmins have no influence on the code repo
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:55 am #591904

Hulkamania wrote:You have been the least public facing of all the headmins with regards to pushing for policy updates, making rulings, and the general book keeping side of things. If you're on the headmin team as a veteran the newer headmins will often look to you to fill in the more "active" roles until they become acclimated. Do you see yourself updating your administration style in the future, or do you intend to stay relatively in the background?


maybe im misunderstanding but i thought they divided and conquered with lepi focusing on dynamic, coco focusing on PD, and domi focusing on looking into complaints?

Naturally the dynamic one since it is focused ingame (compared to the other 2 which are forumbased) would not be as "public facing", right?
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Omega_DarkPotato » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:57 am #591908

Jaredfogle wrote:
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:cant wait for manuel to be disconnected from the main codebase so that we can finally stop having to worry about MRP code being written for a majority LRP server base cough cough I'm still spiteful at timberpoes' ID rework fuck that cough cough


Headadmins have no influence on the code repo

ree, I say as I pound the desk in front of me repeatedly, get these manuel users off my board.

Wouldn't disconnecting manuel/setting up their own admins help to influence a disconnect in codebases though? I know it's obviously not going to be done directly, but I would believe that the admin disconnect would indirectly help.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Jaredfogle » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:06 am #591922

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:ree, I say as I pound the desk in front of me repeatedly, get these manuel users off my board.


I hope I'm not the one you're calling a manuel user :lol:

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:Wouldn't disconnecting manuel/setting up their own admins help to influence a disconnect in codebases though? I know it's obviously not going to be done directly, but I would believe that the admin disconnect would indirectly help.


Not if the maintainers don't want it, and we don't. If you want a separate codebase, you'd have to completely disconnect from /tg/ as a whole or make an absurdly good case to the maintainers that it's worth our effort, and you'd be starting at -1,000,000 points.

This'll be the last I talk about this, though, as to not derail the thread.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby TheFinalPotato » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:09 am #591926

If you want to separate off from the main branch feel free, but you will have the same issues all downstreams do, a smaller dev team, and the inevitable flow conflicts with upstream.
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Naloac
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:13 am #591935

Hulkamania wrote:You have been the least public facing of all the headmins with regards to pushing for policy updates, making rulings, and the general book keeping side of things. If you're on the headmin team as a veteran the newer headmins will often look to you to fill in the more "active" roles until they become acclimated. Do you see yourself updating your administration style in the future, or do you intend to stay relatively in the background?


I was *in the background* because I spent alot of my time getting logs for the appeals, getting use cases for the policy, and doing alot of the dynamic stuff. Just because I wasnt doing as much of the public stuff (like replying to policy/ban appeals) doesnt mean I wasnt giving my opinions on each of the things you saw and helping in writing the replies. What you describe as *active* id describe as the front man, aka the one being the public voice to the opinions of the three and id be fully willing and able to take on that role for the new term.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:Also, since "I want our bans to be public" has proven to be a hotly discussed topic, can you expand more on this?
Only perms? All types of bans? Why only NEW bans if your goal is to avoid rules being stretched to fit bans on places where they shouldn't have been?
If your goal is to stop bans being placed by admins who bend rules to give em, should the name of the banned player be hidden/obfuscated/whatever?


Only bans placed after due to the fact that some old bans may contain personal info which we could accidentally leak if we put all current bans public. Its more due to the safety of our playerbase more than anything else. After a few years of public bans it shouldnt really be an issue. Also a player name being hidden could be a good idea but id have to look more into the logistics of actually have that be done. Since I know for a fact that we could go public bans right now.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Indie-ana Jones » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:34 am #591987

Dynamic on all servers was a good change.
Seperating MRP from LRP further is also a good change.
I don't like catgirls and I don't like you and I'm eating cheese but I'll vote for those policy changes.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:56 am #591999

IMO separating Manuel is a terrible idea.

While being cut loose would initially be liberating for Manuel, I think in the end run it would be harmful to tg as a whole. By existing on its own, you’ll be allowing the server to develop without the (very) important check that the rest of tg acts as. I think it’s a very definite possibility for Manuel to develop into something completely alien to tg, and in doing so we could lose a lot of valuable players, contributors, and admins.

All that is just my opinion, but I’m curious as to whether or not you’ve considered such an outcome, whether you think it holds any weight, and why separation is for the best with both the concerns of manuel and tg as a whole in mind.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Hulkamania » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:30 am #592014

Naloac wrote:
Hulkamania wrote:You have been the least public facing of all the headmins with regards to pushing for policy updates, making rulings, and the general book keeping side of things. If you're on the headmin team as a veteran the newer headmins will often look to you to fill in the more "active" roles until they become acclimated. Do you see yourself updating your administration style in the future, or do you intend to stay relatively in the background?


I was *in the background* because I spent alot of my time getting logs for the appeals, getting use cases for the policy, and doing alot of the dynamic stuff. Just because I wasnt doing as much of the public stuff (like replying to policy/ban appeals) doesnt mean I wasnt giving my opinions on each of the things you saw and helping in writing the replies. What you describe as *active* id describe as the front man, aka the one being the public voice to the opinions of the three and id be fully willing and able to take on that role for the new term.


Yes that's what I'm saying. I'm saying if you were active it was more in the background which isn't as public facing, but moving into a second term people would be looking more to you as the experienced one to be the most prominent member of the team. You did not answer my question if you would be comfortable with that.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:45 am #592040

The problem with MRP which i couldnt really explain earlier is not only just regarding the fact now we are trying to code for 2 divisions of the community (lol if downstreaming for MRP), which is a real stinker for me as a coder-girl, but also the fact that it seems like you missed part of the mark on why MRP was added in the first place.

Yes, there was a portion of it that was strictly just "we'd like a more roleplay-oriented environment on the tg codebase",which wouldnt be entirely true anymore if you forked, but also there was (and now will be again once now that we explicitly want MRP to go its own direction, which is prob just a euphemism for higher RP in practicality) a hole for people who wanted refuge from the murderbone style which isnt hand in hand with LRP. If you are going to say that you want to separate MRP to the point where it is pretty much only TG in code loosely (sep discord? sep admins? sep fork?) then it's kind of a spit in the face to people, like myself, that went mainly MRP pilled for the avoiding of chain murderbone. Even right now its hard to choose between not finishing a manuel round or hoping the same dog learned some better tricks, its simpler to just admin and run isolated events.

If you want MRP to be an entirely separate entity, I hope you have a plan on addressing the hole you are creating for LRP players who just want to play the game without dealing with murderbones every round, and really just joined MRP for that reason. If Im going to be stuck with "just play manuel lol" or "just deal with constant murderbone bro its epic lol", its going to mean that you're getting lower on the pole for me personally, which sucks cuz id like you to be a top choice.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Farquaar » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:32 pm #592163

wesoda25 wrote:IMO separating Manuel is a terrible idea.

While being cut loose would initially be liberating for Manuel, I think in the end run it would be harmful to tg as a whole. By existing on its own, you’ll be allowing the server to develop without the (very) important check that the rest of tg acts as. I think it’s a very definite possibility for Manuel to develop into something completely alien to tg, and in doing so we could lose a lot of valuable players, contributors, and admins.

All that is just my opinion, but I’m curious as to whether or not you’ve considered such an outcome, whether you think it holds any weight, and why separation is for the best with both the concerns of manuel and tg as a whole in mind.

Seconding this. I would even venture so far as to suggest that this point of your platform may result from the fact that you have very little experience with Manuel relative to the other servers. Could you please elaborate on why you think that an MRP separation is desirable?

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:47 pm #592297

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This was the most open and shut case of a ban in /tg/ history. The user clearly violated Rule 8, and admitted to it in their opening post, and claimed they did nothing wrong.

The other two headmins were able to acknowledge this and vote to uphold the incredibly lenient ban.

You, however, couldn't put aside your personal bias in the face of overwhelming objective evidence of a violation of one of the few important rules on our server, and abstained from the vote.

How can we trust you to be a good headmin when you can't put aside your personal bias in the world's easiest ban appeal to deny?

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:36 pm #592315

Hulkamania wrote:words


I did answer this its right at the bottom

Farquaar wrote:words


I have experienced first hand a headmin term not really in touch with MRP, one of the headmins abstained from all things MRP leaving me and another to do it. The other wasnt as active in game as the both of us and I have too high ping to be able to actively play on MRP. I believe this sorta thing will happen again and often in other terms of people *like me* choosing and dictating policy on a server they dont or cant play on. Which would be solved by giving them their own dedicated adminbase.

Cobby wrote:words

although the question of swapping to its own code would be that teams decision. I believe MRP should be making policy for MRP and not have abunch of LRP admins + headmins making policy for a server they dont play
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:39 pm #592316

iamgoofball wrote:Image

This was the most open and shut case of a ban in /tg/ history. The user clearly violated Rule 8, and admitted to it in their opening post, and claimed they did nothing wrong.

The other two headmins were able to acknowledge this and vote to uphold the incredibly lenient ban.

You, however, couldn't put aside your personal bias in the face of overwhelming objective evidence of a violation of one of the few important rules on our server, and abstained from the vote.

How can we trust you to be a good headmin when you can't put aside your personal bias in the world's easiest ban appeal to deny?


ive replied to this before but I decided that I wouldnt want my own personal biases influencing me in any way on this. I used to play games with the person leading to me being biased in a ban with them. So I let the other two fully capable headmins handle it. I dont really see the issue here
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:00 pm #592319

Naloac wrote:ive replied to this before but I decided that I wouldnt want my own personal biases influencing me in any way on this. I used to play games with the person leading to me being biased in a ban with them. So I let the other two fully capable headmins handle it. I dont really see the issue here


If "i used to play video games with this person" is all it takes for you to be permanently biased and unable to set that aside in the face of objective truth, that makes you unable to headmin a video game server where you play a video game with people.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Domitius » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:19 pm #592329

iamgoofball wrote:
Naloac wrote:ive replied to this before but I decided that I wouldnt want my own personal biases influencing me in any way on this. I used to play games with the person leading to me being biased in a ban with them. So I let the other two fully capable headmins handle it. I dont really see the issue here


If "i used to play video games with this person" is all it takes for you to be permanently biased and unable to set that aside in the face of objective truth, that makes you unable to headmin a video game server where you play a video game with people.

This was not a controversial appeal by any measure and Naloac diligently excused themselves from the conversation to remove personal bias from the decision. Given the close-knit nature of our community it is not uncommon for admins to hand off or excuse themselves from situations to prevent that bias from affecting their judgement.

Headmins work as a team for scenarios exactly like this one. Shaming a headmin for using the tools available to them is petty at best.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby LynxJynx » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:20 pm #592330

You said you were interested in making bans public, in the event that this did happen would you consider providing ban info to the ban database that was set up by bobbahbrown?

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Swept » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:54 pm #592346

Can't comment on their policies/admin on tgstation but i've asked Lepi a lot of questions about SS13 mechanics and administration practices in general and they've always given me the time of day. I also think they take the separation between friends/administration very seriously which I can respect.

They coo', although they keep calling me stupid which is not ok!!

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:09 am #592352

LynxJynx wrote:You said you were interested in making bans public, in the event that this did happen would you consider providing ban info to the ban database that was set up by bobbahbrown?


possibly although it would have to be stressed to take all of the other cent com based bans with a grain of salt.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:10 am #592377

I've seen the downfall of TGMC and it's now horrendously detached community (Like does anyone really consider them part of TG?). What makes you think this exact thing won't happen to Manuel (hint: It already is happening) and how would you prevent it?

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Jolly66 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm #592593

You state you wish to separate Manuel into its own server like TGMC. Are you going to assist with the server (assuming Manuel does get split) in setting up infrastructure that TG has? Or are you going to leave it into the hands of the players who are there already and expect them to work out everything on their own?

As someone who months ago considered wanting a Manuel split from the rest of TG, I've seriously reconsider this idea and have personally considered it a bad idea. Manuel is, as many of you don't want to hear it, still a TG server. Wesoda really puts to light what I already want to say on the matter;

wesoda25 wrote:IMO separating Manuel is a terrible idea.

While being cut loose would initially be liberating for Manuel, I think in the end run it would be harmful to tg as a whole. By existing on its own, you’ll be allowing the server to develop without the (very) important check that the rest of tg acts as. I think it’s a very definite possibility for Manuel to develop into something completely alien to tg, and in doing so we could lose a lot of valuable players, contributors, and admins.

All that is just my opinion, but I’m curious as to whether or not you’ve considered such an outcome, whether you think it holds any weight, and why separation is for the best with both the concerns of manuel and tg as a whole in mind.


Splitting Manuel is a good idea for what some players wants, but I'm pretty sure the majority is not prepared or even ready, should this even happen. It should also be mentioned that, its a possibility that many Manuelmins don't want to solely stay on a split Manuel, the same can be applied to the coders as well. Keeping Manuel together with the rest of TG allows for cross admin interactions, and enables admins who mainly reside on Bagil/Sybil/Terry to interact with Manuel, and vice versa, and enables them to better understand the rather tight-knit community that IS Manuel. I do ask you to reconsider your stance on splitting Manuel from the rest of TG.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:19 pm #592603

Jolly66 wrote:words.


I agree these are good points but I think that mrp could do far better on its own both policy and adminwise. The alt codebase would have to be decided by its own team but I personally think it should stay as TG as that would mean it wouldnt dip into HRP and LRP wouldnt dip into No RP. Currently on the team we have a few TGMC admins that also admin on TG so I think the idea that they couldnt do the exact same for a split mrp is wrong. A serious problem for MRP is that LRP admins will decide and dictate policy for a server they cannot / will not play on. I at first helped set up mrp rule set before it was changed to the one is its now also being a vocal supporter of it being created but, I cannot play on it the pings far too high and I believe this will be a common problem in the future with headmins who cant/wont play on mrp deciding policy and the direction of the server. I dont think this is fair for anyone and want to fix that.
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:18 am #592760

manuel can have goofball as their head coder, it ll go fine dont worry

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Domitius » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:04 am #593313

Lepi's got a drive like no other and isn't the least bit afraid to speak their mind out about issues that bug them which has been wonderful. One of the greatest things about working with them is that candor. They've consistently pursued everything they've set out to do with fervour but they just need some more time to get it done.

While both of us haven't agreed over everything they've still been incredibly easy to work with to resolve any issues. Know that if they move forward being voted in again they will get the work done properly and not leave people high and dry.

It's been an honour working with them.

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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Man_Shroom » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:47 pm #593933

im voting for you too king

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Naloac
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Naloac

Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby Naloac » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:57 am #593951

Domitius wrote:Lepi's got a drive like no other and isn't the least bit afraid to speak their mind out about issues that bug them which has been wonderful. One of the greatest things about working with them is that candor. They've consistently pursued everything they've set out to do with fervour but they just need some more time to get it done.

While both of us haven't agreed over everything they've still been incredibly easy to work with to resolve any issues. Know that if they move forward being voted in again they will get the work done properly and not leave people high and dry.

It's been an honour working with them.


thanks king/queen/ whatever a royal shark is

Man_Shroom wrote:im voting for you too king


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CitrusGender
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Re: Naloac 2 Headmin boogaloo

Postby CitrusGender » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:47 pm #594581

based lepi
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thanks to ninjanomnom for making my signature


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