/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sawrge handles any actual admin related business with an acceptable amount of "professionalism"

and sharing an extremely aggressive and incendiary post about Kevinz in his mumble group inciting one of them who doesn't even play the game to come and post it on Kevinz' feedback thread.

I don't even understand this. This is fantasy. How would you even know what he does in an imaginary joke mumble that doesn't exist

You're not exactly a gold standard of professionalism Danno. The fact that you put in quotes like it's not a real thing just proves my point. I'll leave it at that.

And you know what I'm talking about in regards to him telling you and everyone else his password, quit trying to derail with semantics.

I like to think that I handle any admin business professionally
The only thing I've really done unprofessionally was the ic issue spamming, and everyone did that and I don't do that anymore
But it's not really about me, is it.

Sidenote: Can we please stop trying to devalue the posts of people who don't share your opinion in these feedback threads?

It's interesting that you asked people to stop saying things like that to try and invalidate posts in here, but it's fine if you do it?

I don't know what you're trying to say with the quotes thing. I quoted part of your post to make it clear what I was referring to. You took an NTR hut post seriously and accused him of rallying people from a "mumble" to come shitpost. NTR hut is the shitposting board, dude. What people do is of their on accord, Sawrge doesn't have people at his beck and call to come do stupid shit like that for him. He's just a dumb 12 year old.

sawrge kor and tehsteveo said they wont admincandidate me in our mumble even if i stop shitposting so i have to say i dont support his fullminning thanks

If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

Shaps wrote:If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

Basically this. All this talk of professionalism is a little bit ridiculous. This is a game. We play it for fun and we admin it for fun. Demanding a serious and professional demeanor outside of handling actual admin business (ahelps, FNR) is fucking absurd. This isnt a goddamn corporation where we have to leave a good impression on potential clients or some shit and not promoting him over something as trivial as that without putting forward any substantial cases of him being a poor admin is fucking mind boggling.

Every interaction he's had with me and with a bunch of other people he's been a douche, but that's not really a time when he's considered on the clock. Haven't really seen him do anything ingame, but I'd trust PKP's judgement that he's average.

I don't think you really do handle admin business professionally Danno, but this isn't your trial thread so I'm not going to get into it further. I'm not devaluing anyone's post, I'm only saying that you saying you think someone is professional enough doesn't carry much weight, which is absolutely true. In any case, I'm not really interested in arguing with you over the semantics of something that actually happened and resulted in a bunch of randoms getting access to the admin-only forum. Stop fucking obfuscating it by "oh but we weren't in mumble!" "they only posted the screenshots of the admin forum in the hut!".

I never said that Sawrge was unprofessional in game, in fact in my experience that's where he does the best. I'm also not saying that this is some sort of corporation where everyone needs to "be professional for clients" or some shit, and if you think that's what I'm saying you're greatly misunderstanding me. I think that if you take a leadership role in the server and choose to represent it you shouldn't be acting like the hutposters who don't play and just shitpost. I don't think that's unreasonable.

EDIT: As a sidenote, I don't exactly consider giving your password away to a bunch of hutgoers so they can peruse the admin forum or giving a vile criticism of another admin to one of your metabuddies to post "trivial".

In the years I've played this game, I've found the easiest way to not go absolutely insane arguing over meaningless bullshit with internet strangers constantly is to avoid taking to too seriously.

It's a game. It's a medium of entertainment, a distraction. It isn't worth getting worked up over. It's silly and meaningless to go on acting like adminbus is some professional entity when we're a bunch of unpaid volunteers part of a community of people mainly with the collective goal of just having a good time.

I don't think the things I do are harmful, I don't think they detract from the experience of the game, and I don't think they're reason to remove me from the position. I always act professional in game and when dealing with players during administrative business. Yes, giving away my password was stupid. It was also mostly harmless. I don't plan on repeating it. Yes, posting in every single admin feedback thread was stupid. It was also completely harmless, and the entire forum is largely an unused pit of non-serious posts anyway. Other than that, I really have no idea what people are taking such issues with.

I'm not going to start acting more "serious" on the forums, whatever that means. I'll acknowledge the stupid things I did, and I'll acknowledge that repeating stunts of the sort isn't worth it. I'm not going to change the way I generally behave so I can keep a silly title on a video game.

Sweaterkittens wrote: I think that if you take a leadership role in the server and choose to represent it you shouldn't be acting like the hutposters who don't play and just shitpost. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I have nothing more to say other than i fundamentally disagree with you about this

You are trying to devalue my post. That's exactly what you're trying to do, just in different words. Are you serious?

The password leak shit was retarded but ultimately harmless and dealt with by the headmins, and therefore I don't see how it factors into this at all.
Everything I'm reading here just seems to boil down to "I think he's unprofessional, I don't really have any examples, and in game (the part that matters) he does just fine"


and generalizing """"""hutposters"""""" as people who don't play is just stupid

I'm not arguing with you anymore Danno, because you don't hear what I'm saying. I'm getting really tired of you just jumping to Sawrge's defense every time there's a dispute and attacking anyone who has a differing opinion to your own, even going to the lengths of joining adminbus just to defend him and then leaving. If you want to discuss this further than you can talk to me on IRC, because I'm not wasting any more of my time or space in this thread arguing pointlessly with you.

Sawrge wrote:I'll acknowledge the stupid things I did, and I'll acknowledge that repeating stunts of the sort isn't worth it.

That's literally all I was asking for in #adminbus and you responded by saying you weren't going to change or do anything different other than to not get in trouble. The way people are talking here you'd think I was asking for a fucking HR meeting or some shit. By all means, have a good time and enjoy the fact that this is a game, and we're all just here to have fun. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that you not give out your password to random people and the like, that's all I'm asking.

It's really disappointing to see you go against everything you said in that post just because I'm disagreeing with you.

I'm defending sawrge because I think he's a good admin and should be promoted. That's the purpose of this thread.
I'm not attacking you, jesus christ.
You won't discount my posts with this nonsense.

I couldn't care less that he shitposts, but he's a bit of a douche, and that's definitely not a trait I want to see in an admin.

You're probably going to have to be more specific, "he's a douche" isn't really (as they apparently say nowadays) "actionable".

Take a gander through the feedback forum and look at his posts and you'll see a pattern of him being an ass.

I don't really see the separation between how one behaves on the forums and how one behaves with other players that others are seeing. People like to meme about "forum warriors" but most people who post here do play the game, and it is still a public-facing forum.

Example: Kevinz000's feedback thread has been brought up but this whole fake-Intigracy-but-is-it-fake-really drama bomb is a good example: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&start=50

After parsing through his posts I reluctantly take back what I said about him being an asshole, I was probably just mad at the time because we apparently agree on literally nothing

I was mistaking Danno for Swarge.

APOLOGIZE

Looks like I win again

mistaking bad for bad is still bad danno

Shaps-cloud wrote:If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

He leaked his password to the fucking anon3 discord Shaps, are you seriously gonna use that defence?

edit:who was that one admin that nearly got deadminned over leaking adminbus irc logs to singulo? I dont' know how they got it worse than swarge
editedit: kor thinks it might have been techno

oranges wrote:

Shaps-cloud wrote:If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

He leaked his password to the fucking anon3 discord Shaps, are you seriously gonna use that defence?

edit:who was that one admin that nearly got deadminned over leaking adminbus irc logs to singulo? I dont' know how they got it worse than swarge
editedit: kor thinks it might have been techno

That would be me if you are talking about the time it happened when anon was head admin


As for sawrge well I think professionalism is stupid because we are not professionals we are volunteers and sawrge does a good job at being a volunteer for this game

But if we don't act with at least some level of maturity or slight professionalism how can we ask in sound mind for people to obey our rules or get banned? Its basically like saying "be friends with us and we wont ban you, otherwise good luck".

No matter how you look at it being an admin is in some way a form of power over those below or around you and you need to at least act like you deserve that responsibility without being a child.

Now Im saying this in general and not specifically to sawge, as I haven't actually admin along side them. However its a terrible argument to say "we're un paid volunteers, we dont have to act professional". Go work as a volunteer in a charity shop and call everyone a cunt who enters, see how long you stay there.

There is a fundamental difference between making a lot of dumb posts on a forum and calling people cunts unprovoked.

oranges wrote:

Shaps-cloud wrote:If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

He leaked his password to the fucking anon3 discord Shaps, are you seriously gonna use that defence?

edit:who was that one admin that nearly got deadminned over leaking adminbus irc logs to singulo? I dont' know how they got it worse than swarge
editedit: kor thinks it might have been techno

that was retarded and got handled by the headmins, if he does something monumentally dumb like that again then put his head on a pike, but he hit the ground running after getting yelled at and has been doing his job fine

Was but an analogy, I admit it was a little crude, but my thoughts as written in the rest of the post still stand. A good sense of humour and a light heart can be part of being professional, but knowing when the time and place for things is the sign of maturity I hope an admin may have.

But again seeing this, I haven't seen sawrge admin, I also haven't seen them behave like an asshole in any situations that were outside the hut for example.

I'd like to point out that my issue is no longer one of professionalism but the fact that sawrge doesn't seem interested in listening to feedback

I'm not going to go so far as to vote no, but it's a pretty big issue in my eyes and I'm not entirely comfortable with that fact

That goes beyond the professionalism stuff too, though I'm on my phone and can't get specific examples

I figure by now there's no chance of anyone listening to me and sawrge will get admin no questions asked, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that something changes

If you have multiple people who have an issue with you and you outright tell them you're not going to do anything, not even a token "ill take that into account" then that's more than a little obnoxious

EDIT: also I can't speak for anyone else but my issues with "professionalism" weren't implying sawrge needs to be no nonsense and never any fun out of the hut, but more "think about where you're posting" - I believe (but don't remember specifically) there's been a few posts by sawrge in FNR that have been deleted for being a bit too far on the shitpost side

I haven't seen anything like that in a while, mind, but that was where my concern came from, and I find it a little frustrating that these points in my post are being ignored by some people because of some positives he shows (spirit of the game, etc) - it's important to consider both sides in an issue and I feel like most people aren't even trying to do that here, if you read through the thread you'll see some admins not budging from "he's good shut up" and some not budging from "he's unprofessional shut up"

Beyond a few notably egregious incidents, all of which I've apologized for and admitted were stupid stunts to pull, I honestly don't get the whole "professionalism" thing or where it is coming from.

I can't act on feedback if it means nothing to me and won't be further elaborated on.
Yes, I posted a lot in the shed. You'll notice I haven't nearly as much since I got admin. Should I stop altogether?
Yes, I make stupid jokes in other parts of the forum, generally at the expense of communal punching bags like Luke Cox. Should I cut those out?
Yes, I post stupid shit in ooc constantly with my big attention seeking coloured text. Should I stop that?
Yes, I give stupid answers to stupid ahelps. Should I not?

This is all just behavior I've witnessed out of several other admins, both past ones and present. It was never much of an issue when I was previously an admin and yet suddenly it seems I've incredibly offended a portion of people and I can't figure out why.

So please, I really would like actual concrete examples and more specific feedback than "professionalism" or no, I will not act on it.

in order:

Shed posting is irrelevant and if anyone tries to use it against you ill be the first to call them out

I think making jokes at someone's expense is a bad idea, but I know for a fact there are admins who will disagree with me

I do that too so no complaints there

Yes, you shouldn't do that, just because you (and most likely I) think it's dumb doesn't excuse responses like that (unless it's obviously a joke ala Fesa Semenov ahelping "give me nukeop wizard ling or ill hack your club penguin account), but again other admins will disagree

I don't think past behaviour from others that may or may not have been bad excuses current bad behaviour (not saying your behaviour was "bad", I'm saying that's a poor defense)

This is a valid point and I'll concede it



I don't really think there's any significant issues with you as an admin, I've just been tired of a lot of peoples inability to consider other points of view on /tg/ and irl recently so I projected some of that on you

This is why posting as you go to bed/wake up is DUMB AND STUPID AND I KEEP DOING IT

EDIT: If it wasn't clear - I'll probably change my vote back to yes again because this was a well thought out and reasonable response to my post

I stand by my point about sawrges detractors and... the opposite word (allies? Defendants?) being dumb tho

captain sawrge wrote: I can't act on feedback if it means nothing to me and won't be further elaborated on.
Yes, I posted a lot in the shed. You'll notice I haven't nearly as much since I got admin. Should I stop altogether?
Yes, I make stupid jokes in other parts of the forum, generally at the expense of communal punching bags like Luke Cox. Should I cut those out?
Yes, I post stupid shit in ooc constantly with my big attention seeking coloured text. Should I stop that?
Yes, I give stupid answers to stupid ahelps. Should I not?

- Seems fair
- Shed is there for everyone to shitpost/reieve themselves, even admins, heck I even do it. Anyone calls you out I'd back you.
-I think you do need to curb your FNR shitposts, but honestly being an admin wont save me deleting it, I might consider it for a little longer, but if its irrelevant shit its going to be deleted (if I see it). I also wouldnt hesitate to ask for a FNR ban if I think its out of hand. However none of these things have really come to light so Im not sure its an issue yet.
- Personal preference from me would be no, stop being a moron, but thats my personal view and you wouldn't be the only one. Plus it doesnt really effect much except antagonising people.
- This last point is kinda an extension of the OOC. I dont think "stupid answers to stupid questions" is a great attitude. Its almost a weird "im better than you" feeling I get when people do its, its not helpful and only serves to antagonise people. If its a stupid question, hit reject, once. If its an IC issue, hit IC, once. And then move on. Unless you genuinely know the person/they're a regular enough to understand its purely a joke and nothing more.

I mainly meant when someone ahelps a stupid joke or an incredibly outlandish request and I respond with something equally stupid.

Edit for some other concerns people have expressed unrelated to the current discussion:

I don't really know where this "the old admins like him so he'll get promoted" thing comes from, if it's supposed to suggest some form of favoritism or something. Kor and NikNak are the only people I'd had any major interaction with prior to this trial period, and Kor is (probably wisely) trying to separate himself from the discussion as much as possible.

As for my stance on events, I'm just gonna repost what I said to SK in irc
09:34 <+sawrge1e9> Sweaterkittens|Work: I don't like events because they often tend to be admins trying to railroad players into a pre constructed story or scenario. I think it's way more interesting and engaging when these things just happen on their own without outside influences. I like when admins help with this stuff and make a cool or interesting situation even cooler,
09:34 <+sawrge1e9> maybe with some music, (IC, appropriate) centcomm announcements, maybe spawning a few items or mobs or whatever in the right place
09:35 <+sawrge1e9> But "events" that come about naturally and are driven by the players are far more interesting to watch and to be a part of
09:36 <%Sweaterkittens|Work> To be fair, I'd consider the middle portion of that (aka not railroading people but making everything more interesting) running 'events' to an extent and kind of consider them very similar
09:36 <+sawrge1e9> And in my own ideal little world I would prefer more admins trying to add flavor to existing round situations instead of just trying to make their own
09:36 <%Sweaterkittens|Work> Yeah that's a fair point. I kind of assumed that when you said you didn't like events that you meant any sort of admin intervention outside of running the round as necessary
09:36 <%Sweaterkittens|Work> to an extent, obviously
09:38 <+sawrge1e9> I don't like admins trying to either derail or railroad rounds at their whim

yeah that's a more reasonable stance than "events are dumb and bad", I just never saw you elaborate past that

captain sawrge wrote:Beyond a few notably egregious incidents, all of which I've apologized for and admitted were stupid stunts to pull, I honestly don't get the whole "professionalism" thing or where it is coming from.

I can't act on feedback if it means nothing to me and won't be further elaborated on.
Yes, I posted a lot in the shed. You'll notice I haven't nearly as much since I got admin. Should I stop altogether?
Yes, I make stupid jokes in other parts of the forum, generally at the expense of communal punching bags like Luke Cox. Should I cut those out?
Yes, I post stupid shit in ooc constantly with my big attention seeking coloured text. Should I stop that?
Yes, I give stupid answers to stupid ahelps. Should I not?

This is all just behavior I've witnessed out of several other admins, both past ones and present. It was never much of an issue when I was previously an admin and yet suddenly it seems I've incredibly offended a portion of people and I can't figure out why.

So please, I really would like actual concrete examples and more specific feedback than "professionalism" or no, I will not act on it.

Basically, the shenanigans in FNR don't reflect that well upon the admin team, in my eyes; they seem dismissive in an adversarial way, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say admin behavior determines whether people stay or leave a server. Broken windows theory, basically.

I don't think anyone here really gives a shit about the shed, or about stupid shit in OOC.

Which shenanigans in FNR? Admin feedback? I tend to avoid weighing in publicly on ban appeals, and personally I think policy discussion is a mess not worth touching.

Yeah pretty much this https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=9690

EDIT: I also don't find the events thing a problem and I think any admin who faults someone for trying to run events is being asinine

The admin feedback meme was the worst example of sawrge shitposting outside the hut but after that he got the message and stopped I believe

(for context: he posted in nearly every admin feedback thread "this is my alt")

Poor sense of humor. Also all that other shit people say he did.

peoplearestrange wrote:Was but an analogy, I admit it was a little crude, but my thoughts as written in the rest of the post still stand. A good sense of humour and a light heart can be part of being professional, but knowing when the time and place for things is the sign of maturity I hope an admin may have.

But again seeing this, I haven't seen sawrge admin, I also haven't seen them behave like an asshole in any situations that were outside the hut for example.

I've never seen sawrge act like a cunt to anyone and I've been on numerous times while he was on the server.

Sometinyprick wrote:

oranges wrote:

Shaps-cloud wrote:If anyone has any actual cases or proof of sawrge (or dannno I guess but that's really not relevant here?) acting unprofessional to a player while conducting administrative duties, please present them

He leaked his password to the fucking anon3 discord Shaps, are you seriously gonna use that defence?

edit:who was that one admin that nearly got deadminned over leaking adminbus irc logs to singulo? I dont' know how they got it worse than swarge
editedit: kor thinks it might have been techno

That would be me if you are talking about the time it happened when anon was head admin

A that was a vintage headmin period

Other admins defending his antics under the guise of "issa game y so serious lmao" further soils the credibility of adminbus, atleast pretend to be unbiased because if it was anybody else he would have been ripped a new one and deadminned

Brings in to perspective if Mimicfaux really did that much wrong to warrant a firm booting.

peoplearestrange wrote:Brings in to perspective if Mimicfaux really did that much wrong to warrant a firm booting.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 29#p259198
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 53&t=10011
Abusing powers is an understandable reason to deadmin someone.

peoplearestrange wrote:Brings in to perspective if Mimicfaux really did that much wrong to warrant a firm booting.

No, not really...?

geilebeer wrote:Other admins defending his antics under the guise of "issa game y so serious lmao" further soils the credibility of adminbus, atleast pretend to be unbiased because if it was anybody else he would have been ripped a new one and deadminned

What makes you think this?

How is mimicfaux relevant? They abused their admin powers in-game which lead to deadminning. If sawrge did that i think we would have known by now

geilebeer wrote:Other admins defending his antics under the guise of "issa game y so serious lmao" further soils the credibility of adminbus, atleast pretend to be unbiased because if it was anybody else he would have been ripped a new one and deadminned

half of this thread is people shitting on sawrge and half is him defending him, and you haven't even leveled any accusations beyond this

geilebeer wrote:Other admins defending his antics under the guise of "issa game y so serious lmao" further soils the credibility of adminbus, atleast pretend to be unbiased because if it was anybody else he would have been ripped a new one and deadminned

Not an argument. Please give examples

Bad bans with bad investigation! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=10182
Bad note that he said he would edit after it was already lifted by a headmin! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=10066
and those are literally the only two things anyone has appealed by him.

Everything looks ok as I go through his bans and notes. He permabanned autinrosello's account one day randomly? No idea what that is about.
Some meme bans and some regular and proper bans and notes.

He hates me though and we argue a lot in adminbus. We fight. Most of it can seen in my admin complaint against him. This is my post!

Honestly I'm just disappointed by the complete lack of investigation that he showed, more information in the note appeal niknak mentioned. He came across as very accusatory when he bwoinked me and didn't bother to respond after I defended myself. I assumed that he had taken what I said into account and I wasn't in trouble. Wasn't even aware I got a note for it until the next day when I clicked see admin remarks for whatever reason. There's also that issue of spamming FNR but he's said he won't do it again so whatever.

Wouldn't "extend trial" appease both sides here?