/tg/Station 13

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... k4Tw%3D%3D - Pre filtering

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... yo1g%3D%3D - Post Filtering

Filter used is pretty simple and was agreed ahead of running the poll by headadmins and myself, we required at least 60 minutes of time as a living character (that's any crew roundstart etc) in the window of 30th September to October 5th (which is the day the *first* poll started).

This eliminates anyone who hasn't played a minimum standard of required time, and also excludes people who got that playtime in the days after the first poll, so as to avoid any gaming of the vote.


As you can see, the option preferred was the etherals option.

I think we should respect that result, but I am not immune to the arguments that there are people who have a lot of investment in their cat character. The headadmins and I have agreed on the following compromise.
1) Etherals are merged
2) a new config option is added that prevents people selecting the felinid species in the character setup screen, but does not prevent existing characters
3) from at least the codebase side - we will put a pin in all felinid related changes for 12 months, including strict bans for anyone who doesn't run changes past us (the headcoders), and then commit to seeing what the community looks like after that time has run it's course

to be more clear from the technical standpoint
IF you had a felinid character pre the config being set, then you keep that character and can modify their attributes, however, you can't select the species when editing character slots, and if you change the species on that character, you can't get it back without admin intervention, which you should not expect either.

There's no exact timeline on each item being implemented, so we'll get to it when we get to it, so if you somehow care about felnids but dont' already have a character, now would be a good time to set one up (don't forget you get more character slots if you donate to byond).

Naturally the nature of a compromise being what it is, neither side will be happy with the outcome, but that's life, over time, as the felinid players move on, or find other characters that interest them, these characters will age out, and we can react appropriately at a later date, so if you're prepared to be patient, then you will see a shift in time.

first reply to an epic post

second reply to an epic post

So you mean, cat girls stay. But there are no more cat-girls. And if the previous cat-girls accidentally goof up and change there race from cat-girl. They cannot be a cat-girl anymore.

Huh, cat-girls are a rare and endangered race now. Nice

Well it's subject to the whim of the admin online at the time, but it's not guaranteed that they might help you out if you mess up.

oranges wrote:Well it's subject to the whim of the admin online at the time, but it's not guaranteed that they might help you out if you mess up.

Well, is there anything preventing the admin from just making everyone who asks for it, a cat girl?

This sort of sounds like a different polling option

Edit: To clarify, Cat-Girl whitelist boys. You gotta make the admins deem your a respectable player to get the cat-girl

That would be considered bypassing headmin config and is treated very seriously.

Note that it doesn't apply to making someone a cat for a meme or something, since that won't apply after round end.

oranges wrote:That would be considered bypassing headmin config and is treated very seriously.

I understand now. I wonder if we're going to see a rise of a whole bunch of cat-girl alternative characters. Just so people can flaunt that they had a cat-girl character before the restriction.

configuration items, like all configuration items, can be freely changed by developers cosmic, you only need a text editor

oranges wrote: I think we should respect that result, but I am not immune to the arguments that there are people who have a lot of investment in their cat character.

What about the argument that you should not have included a "Remove felinids and merge ethereals" option without a "Keep felinids and merge ethereals" option, because that's voter bribery?

How does this satisfy either party? Catgirls are not censored like the anti- crowd wanted, and people can't freely play as the race, like the pro- crowd wanted. I don't see the purpose but I guess you're going to stick with it because you made your very important decision that ultimately had nothing whatsoever to do with the faux-democratic buildup.

Thats the point of a compromise.

Steelpoint wrote:Thats the point of a compromise.

I think the point of a compromise is actually to make both parties happy, not to make both parties unhappy.

with enough time, the remove option wins, while' still preventing those people with investment in their catgirl characters from feeling alienated immediately.

Long term, the outcome is still as the poll wants.

oranges wrote:with enough time, the remove option wins, while' still preventing those people with investment in their catgirl characters from feeling alienated immediately.

Long term, the outcome is still as the poll wants.

Why are you distancing yourself? You rigged the poll. It's what you want, not what the poll wants. The poll didn't slant itself toward removal by promising new content only in the result of felinid removal, that was you who did that.

So catpeople are essentially going to be like rare promotional hats in TF2?
I do not disapprove of this.

CosmicScientist wrote:

oranges wrote:configuration items, like all configuration items, can be freely changed by developers cosmic, you only need a text editor

It was hard enough to find the undocumented felinid config option in the first place, you're just increasing the number of jumping hoops to fix bugs and the number of times you or someone else needs to be online to answer questions.

I know you have brain damage from exposure to the DMCA playerbase, but there's nothing that says it's the default config option, which means developers won't even notice.

I thought this sounded pretty dumb at first but I can see how this kind of makes sense, it does everything it needs to in that it makes everyone as angry as possible, and if the goal is to have cat players slowly "move on" then I can see how that would work as well. Catgirls were first enabled on basil as an incentive to use that server anyways, so removing it as as an incentive makes sense now that basil definitely does not need it.

we're not coding for the downstreams

I don't understand your point because it was pretty incomprehensible.

We're adding this config option for this server, not the downstreams, it will be enabled live, but there's no reason to have it as the default option for developers, if downstreams don't want the config they don't need it to set it.

Thanks for assigning me my view point though, I'll make sure to abide by your view of my view in the future.

oranges wrote: 2) a new config option is added that prevents people selecting the felinid species in the character setup screen, but does not prevent existing characters

so what you're saying is this was a huge fucking waste of everyone's time and you gave in and took the admin dick directly up your asshole?

I thought you were going to have a backbone, but I guess not. This config will not change anything, this is the effectiveness level of a UN sternly worded letter.
this is the Assault Weapons Ban equivalent because of the amount of loopholing and grandfathering this allows
1. this doesn't prevent people from using the race, it literally keeps it in not only as now a extra "i was here for X" badge, but also allows people to metagame if someone really is X based on whether they have Y roundstart
2. this doesn't prevent admins from force giving people the race when they ahelp, as they did last time cats were disabled
3. this leaves us with snowflake table/laser pointer species-based behavior in the code
4. this does nothing about the actual fucking issue oranges did you just decide to waste everyone's fucking time holy shit i know you're not this retarded, you're either lying about how this came about or you're not being fucking transparent enough

i just realized the 20th dimensional roblox, carry on as usual

I guess it could be an attempt to embitter the playerbase against felinids by making then a race nobody besides a few can play, so the next vote can be won without rigging it like this one.

But I think it's more likely that he really just thought "Hm... if I just do this... then it will have the least consequences for me"

tfw your fetish toaster race didn't win

Shadowflame909 wrote:So you mean, cat girls stay. But there are no more cat-girls. And if the previous cat-girls accidentally goof up and change there race from cat-girl. They cannot be a cat-girl anymore.

Huh, cat-girls are a rare and endangered race now. Nice

We'll reasonably re-allow people to the catgirl race where they didn't intend to "revoke" their rights. That said, we have multiple slots for you to save in, so I'd advise using an alternative slot if you want to play as a non-cat for a round. Giving catpeople access flagrantly (for example, to someone who clearly never had access to it, such as having joined the community after the cutoff) would be config subversion.

If for some reason in the next 12 months something horribly breaks saves in some wide way that affects a lot of people/everyone we'll most likely look to disable the config for a week or so to allow people to recreate their characters, but hopefully that shouldn't come up.

Also we've had 3 different threads devolve into dumpster fires of arguing about personal stakes. I don't care which side of this argument you're on, but keep things civil and topic focused in here. Any posts that are solely designed to attack another user or incite a flame war will be deleted.

One potential future I can see is future head admins reverting the change and allowing Catpeople back as a round start race, as there is no assurance in the agreement noted that puts a timer on that.

so basically the outcome is "spay and neuter your cats"

[youtube]Iw1V--rp3ng[/youtube]

A true /tg/ server would know that as long as there are 2 cats, you'll never get rid of them.

I do kinda feel that this is not achieving much since Catpeople will remain in the game indefinitely.

I'd much rather just get a definitive answer of either gutting Catpeople utterly or keeping them in forever. Instead of a limbo state that changes nothing for the most part.

Now we just make the game unplayable for the catneckbeards. Make sure silicons are always aware that they arent human. Flashbacks everywhere. Security sets all catvirgins to strest for "weapon posesion"

If we can't throw em out on the street, we suffocate then in a small room

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:I guess it could be an attempt to embitter the playerbase against felinids by making then a race nobody besides a few can play, so the next vote can be won without rigging it like this one.

But I think it's more likely that he really just thought "Hm... if I just do this... then it will have the least consequences for me"

No, seriously, I don't understand why you're allowed to soapbox from an alternate account, in a situation where if I tried exactly what you're doing right now I'd get run the fuck out by the admins. It'd be nice if they didn't hold double-standards here, but the administration has repeatedly proven itself to be biased as fuck.

Hell, I might just do it just to prove a point. Soon as the admins figure out what my alt is they'll ban it and tell me to use my main, despite the fact they'll never do the same to you.

iamgoofball wrote:...

I genuinely am not an alt. I don't know what else I can say on the matter. Also, it would not change what I'm saying if I was an alt.

iamgoofball wrote:

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:I guess it could be an attempt to embitter the playerbase against felinids by making then a race nobody besides a few can play, so the next vote can be won without rigging it like this one.

But I think it's more likely that he really just thought "Hm... if I just do this... then it will have the least consequences for me"

No, seriously, I don't understand why you're allowed to soapbox from an alternate account, in a situation where if I tried exactly what you're doing right now I'd get run the fuck out by the admins. It'd be nice if they didn't hold double-standards here, but the administration has repeatedly proven itself to be biased as fuck.

Hell, I might just do it just to prove a point. Soon as the admins figure out what my alt is they'll ban it and tell me to use my main, despite the fact they'll never do the same to you.

There is no known alt account of this person, and at this point your obsession with believing them to be one person or another isn't helping you or your point. Attack the arguments, instead of getting bent out of shape about the person behind them, whoever they might be.

Realistically I should delete this post because you are once again veering off topic but in a futile endeavour to make you realize that this isn't some ~admin conspiracy~ I will try convincing you of the actual point.

If you made an alt account and broke the rules on that alt account you would be punished on both that alt account and your main one, same as the other user would be. You're literally grasping at straws.

Don't bother responding, any further posts on this particular point will just be deleted.

post yfw removal wins but they don't get removed at all because all 3 headmins are too caught up in their own personal bias to make the correct decision based on a playerbase poll and instead choose to continue to stand their ground on the subject

Remember when removal won the first (binary yes/no) poll so the the headmins said "Umm Actually W'ere Just Gonna Disable Them Config-Wise On The LOWPOP Server Teehee Now You Don't Have To Remove Them sweats profusely" and then Ned announced he fucked up the filter and that removal didn't win so the headmins immediately backtracked and re-enabled them on config -- literally stating that if removal wins then they get DISABLED on the LOWPOP server but if keeping them wins then nothing fucking happens. disabling wasn't a compromise, it was shitty damage control.

Remember when oranges agreed to have a new poll be made BEFORE it was revealed that the filter was wrong, then cat players proceeded to claim that he wanted a re-vote because he lost -- and continued to make up countless amounts of bullshit about how he's rigging the vote and 'making all kinds of filters to make sure removal wins??'

Remember when removal won in the new poll, with the wording of it completely approved by the headmins -- but the cat players still bitched about it? Well, it doesn't matter at all. Because the inept headmins, as per their previous actions would prompt you to predict, chose to continue to stand their ground and push for """compromise""" -- by compromise, I mean a shitty and completely-biased '''solution''' that does nothing at all for the winning side. Why even bother making a poll if you aren't going to follow through with it, ever? Instead of hiding your shitty actions behind a veil of "compromising," why don't you just blatantly go out and say it. Say you don't care about the wills of the majority unless it is your own and that you won't make a poll. It's that easy. But, I guess, through a combination of both ego and arrogance you chose to go through with making another poll that you aren't going to bother listening to anyways.

This is honestly just sad. I had high hopes for this round of headmins but was met with nothing but disappointment.

In all seriousness, this is an extremely good compromise. Few situations in life lead to deals as perfect as this.

When are we getting dogpeople

Yeah this is a really 4d compromise, I was legitimately confused and thinking "why don't we just make sybil the ethereal server or something" until I realised this is similar to using nicotine patches to reduce withdrawal symptoms, or it's far more similar to this example that I swear I have somewhere in my brain but I don't remember. Grandfathered in cats is a bit awkward, but things like movespeed are already awkward in this bloated game so it shouldn't be too confusing.
time to do generic shitstorm arguing:
Let's say all 3 headmins are huge turbocat erpers (which they could unban). Let's say that. if that was the case, they could tell us to fuck off. These are the headmins. If the majority hate catgirls, then we shouldn't have voted for ariaNYA. I can see why people could whine about oranges, but the headmins can totally do this. I got the impression that the reason cats were reenabled on sybil was because a new vote was being held and all decisions should be held off until after it. And of course felinid isn't an alt, they'd definitely be banned. They're simply a player of another server too ashamed to use their real account, so just disregard them.
Let's start arguing about issues that actually matter.

Why couldn't we keep the FELINID RACE as a catperson mutation again? It worked fine before.

Don't we already have code where health analyzers say your race is different or some shit if you're a hulk/catperson/mutant?

Like there's no need to go 'if you want the ethereals or the IPCs then we'll have to remove the catfucks' if all you did was just revert catpeople back to a mutation instead of their snowflake race.

in what way would that change things?

confused rock wrote:in what way would that change things?

"JAMES, THE ROUNDSTART RACE LIST IS TOO FULL. THERE CAN ONLY BE A MAXINUM OF 1 RACE WHICH IS THE SUPERIOR FLYPE-"
"oh fuck nuggets you're right, jimmy, what can we do?"
"REMEMBER HOW WE MADE CATPEOPLE INTO THEIR OWN RACE INSTEAD OF A MUTATION TWO MINUTES AGO?"
"yeah?"
"PURGE IT FROM THE GAME FOREVER"

If the roundstart race list being too full is our main argument then literally just make it back into a mutation instead of this bullshit where if you wanna play as the xcom ethereal then you'll have to piss quite a few people off first by purging catpeople so you can secure the epic deal.

If we won't make hulks into their own race then why the fuck did we make catpeople into their own race?

the funniest part of this is that I have already had people tell me they'll grief while playing as ethereal to get them removed like catgirls.

Hello digg!

actually a serious post: when one choice wins by a relatively slim margin, going "all the way" with it will piss off far more people than a compromise, all you delusional redditoids were never going to get anything better than this really

Qustinnus wrote:the funniest part of this is that I have already had people tell me they'll grief while playing as ethereal to get them removed like catgirls.

didn't you know that if they don't like something nobody else is allowed to either

Screemonster wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:the funniest part of this is that I have already had people tell me they'll grief while playing as ethereal to get them removed like catgirls.

didn't you know that if they don't like something nobody else is allowed to either

same applies to catpeople in this instance.

subject217 wrote:Hello digg!

actually a serious post: when one choice wins by a relatively slim margin, going "all the way" with it will piss off far more people than a compromise, all you delusional redditoids were never going to get anything better than this really

That's right, you have to make everyone unhappy. That's why when the presidential candidate wins with a 51% majority they only make him kinda-president.
Also, on the ballot, the options look like this:

1) Elect George
2) Elect Bob
3) Elect Jim and you get a new car (only guaranteed if you elect Jim though)

CosmicScientist wrote:This isn't the American presidential system last I checked.

I assume you're not going to be satisfied until someone other than oranges who signed off on the vote's options explains why those went ahead, given that PKP's answer of shit happens wasn't satisfactory.

Vote Trump for headmin 2019, make tgstation great again

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:

subject217 wrote:Hello digg!

actually a serious post: when one choice wins by a relatively slim margin, going "all the way" with it will piss off far more people than a compromise, all you delusional redditoids were never going to get anything better than this really

That's right, you have to make everyone unhappy. That's why when the presidential candidate wins with a 51% majority they only make him kinda-president.
Also, on the ballot, the options look like this:

1) Elect George
2) Elect Bob
3) Elect Jim and you get a new car (only guaranteed if you elect Jim though)

I've heard all this before and said it several times. Project your butthurt onto someone else, please.

This is a good compromise. It's a very slim margin, last vote was in favor of catgirls by only a couple votes and this one was in favor of replacement with ethereals by only 20 points. I'd imagine we'd get differing results if we kept doing the poll. We'd make half the server mad no matter what we do, this is the compromise that keeps the most people happy.

I doubt most of the removal crowd is as obsessed about it as the people on the forums, same for the keep crowd. Waiting another year isn't hurting anything and it allows those with investment in their characters to keep those characters until a final vote decides their fate.

To be honest I feel that if a cat accidentally deletes their cat character, admins shouldn't allow them to create a new one. It adds on to the danger and rarity of the cats, and actually achieves the compromise.

This point in mind, if some wacky bug fucks the code and disables all cats, admins definitely shouldn't just blanket remove the config so everyone can go ahead and make a cat player. Checking account age should be a must, if not a list of active cat players being made atm.

So basically can we get some policies put into place considering this (specifically for admins)? Because the way I see it, its gonna be easy as fuck to bypass this compromise.

uh oh opinion time: Fellow cat haters, at first I opposed this result. At first, it seemed like a shitty "solution" that somehow manages to directly defy the vote result and it was labeled a compromise. But think about this gamers: cats are gonna go extinct. This is basically the first step to curing pollution: we've reduced pollution. Cat players will no longer be attracted to /tg/, and one by one, our current cats will die off or get banned. In 5 years, /tg/ is gonna be a beautiful place.

wesoda25 wrote:To be honest I feel that if a cat accidentally deletes their cat character, admins shouldn't allow them to create a new one. It adds on to the danger and rarity of the cats, and actually achieves the compromise.

No.

This point in mind, if some wacky bug fucks the code and disables all cats, admins definitely shouldn't just blanket remove the config so everyone can go ahead and make a cat player. Checking account age should be a must, if not a list of active cat players being made atm.

This would be a unreasonable burden of work to put on administrators, and its relatively unlikely to happen anyway. It's just a sanity clause so that people don't lose their mind 9 months from now should it happen.

So basically can we get some policies put into place considering this (specifically for admins)? Because the way I see it, its gonna be easy as fuck to bypass this compromise.

There are already policies in place. Please refer to my earlier post in this thread.

wesoda25 wrote:To be honest I feel that if a cat accidentally deletes their cat character, admins shouldn't allow them to create a new one. It adds on to the danger and rarity of the cats, and actually achieves the compromise.

This point in mind, if some wacky bug fucks the code and disables all cats, admins definitely shouldn't just blanket remove the config so everyone can go ahead and make a cat player. Checking account age should be a must, if not a list of active cat players being made atm.

So basically can we get some policies put into place considering this (specifically for admins)? Because the way I see it, its gonna be easy as fuck to bypass this compromise.

uh oh opinion time: Fellow cat haters, at first I opposed this result. At first, it seemed like a shitty "solution" that somehow manages to directly defy the vote result and it was labeled a compromise. But think about this gamers: cats are gonna go extinct. This is basically the first step to curing pollution: we've reduced pollution. Cat players will no longer be attracted to /tg/, and one by one, our current cats will die off or get banned. In 5 years, /tg/ is gonna be a beautiful place.

It's really badass how all of your posts read like parody but are actually real