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Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:09 pm
by wesoda25
Ok but do we lose anything if we make “of” type names a thing of the past. Vaina is it just gonna ruin the game for you if you don’t see Ostrava of Nanotrasen or Jill desouza running around anymore? Headmins gave their ruling, why don’t you just accept it and stop contesting this stupid little detail?

Rip Janice ‘Foxy’ Lean

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:27 pm
by tinodrima7020
So basically we just removed nicknames?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:28 pm
by Qbmax32
Furries will be purged

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:09 pm
by Mickyan
This seems to still give leeway to line-toeing OOC names while adding more restrictions for everyone else using names in good faith, the exact opposite of what most people wanted judging from the policy thread

It's all pretty irrelevant as long as it keeps being enforced selectively anyway

It seems to be implied as such but it's kind of vague so I'm going to ask for posterity: are single names for non-humans allowed if species-appropriate?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:12 pm
by confused rock
I know asking about specific names is irritating, but I think like 10 ish examples could save a lot of later questions, like yes/no for

Frank george smith, as having a completely normal middle name
Cancer XD again
Just one example of an”unreasonable” wiz name
Pepper Mint etc

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:24 pm
by Grazyn
wesoda25 wrote:Ok but do we lose anything if we make “of” type names a thing of the past. Vaina is it just gonna ruin the game for you if you don’t see Ostrava of Nanotrasen or Jill desouza running around anymore? Headmins gave their ruling, why don’t you just accept it and stop contesting this stupid little detail?

Rip Janice ‘Foxy’ Lean

I think there is a problem when the thread about the new policy contains arbitrary headmin rulings not based on the new policy, and "lol what do you care just roll with it" doesn't feel like a solution. I mean, yes, I don't care and it's not a big deal, this is just a 2d spessman game, it's just disheartening to see the administration behaving this way.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:35 pm
by Nilons
Reminder vincent von gogh is not a name that meets minimum effort and would be considered bad faith

the death of ostrava of nanotrasen the rise of ostrava nanotrasen

also how do you get basically "We've disallowed most good faith names and set down a nice clear line to toe so shitters can push the limit of the policy"

from

"We want more room for good faith names and the policy to address line toeing shitters that are specifically pushing the limit of the policy"

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:03 pm
by Nabski
confused rock wrote:I know asking about specific names is irritating, but I think like 10 ish examples could save a lot of later questions, like yes/no for


No Frank george smith, as having a completely normal middle name (Firstname Lastname)
No Cancer XD again (clearly trying to make a joke, and it's not funny or creative)
Just one example of an”unreasonable” wiz name (I've been a wizard named "AFK" before and I don't think that would be permitted. Wizard names are like clown names, not a real name but something that was picked to sound cool ect. Theres a difference between "BEEFMAN THE ANGUS DESTROYER" and "SURPRISE SURPRISE YET ANOTHER ROUND WITH OF LEXIA BLACK WIZARD")
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Pepper Mint etc (The name was clearly aiming to be a joke instead of a character, but is it excessively OOC? I don't know.)

That's my take on it.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:08 pm
by WarbossLincoln
"species appropriate" is pretty vague and seems like it would restrict good faith names that don't fit the randomname generator. For example I guess Crocodillo no longer is acceptable for a lizard cause it's not a random name or "Makes-The-Memes"

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:12 pm
by somerandomguy
confused rock wrote:I know asking about specific names is irritating, but I think like 10 ish examples could save a lot of later questions, like yes/no for

Frank george smith, as having a completely normal middle name
Cancer XD again
Just one example of an”unreasonable” wiz name
Pepper Mint etc

Cancer XD is bad faith and/or just plain crap
unreasonable wiz name would probably be something like asgdho;sizdhmuilsyncgauescymlymc;hyncr; or "lol ur all in a game"
Pepper Mint should be ok as long as most admins dont think it's dumb, since it's not ooc and mostly reasonable

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:16 pm
by Enzar
Nabski wrote:No Frank george smith, as having a completely normal middle name (Firstname Lastname)


A firstname lastname minimum is required for humans and felinids


Keyword being "minimum". I don't see a word disallowing middle names, only nicknames and honorifics. But no matter what the case is, this just proves a point that the new policy is "hurr durr not clear enoug"

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:21 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
Ostrava of Nanotrasen and Janice 'Foxy' Lean are dead now. That's all that matters.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:32 pm
by Karp
Nilons wrote:the death of ostrava of nanotrasen the rise of ostrava nanotrasen


I think I would prefer ostrava undertale or ostrava fortnite more than ostrava nanotrasen

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:42 pm
by Shezza
obscolene wrote:Giving players freedom of choice was a mistake. If we don't have state-enforced randomnaming by 2070 we are doomed as a society.

go away dregonsteps

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:47 pm
by Nilons
Karp wrote:
Nilons wrote:the death of ostrava of nanotrasen the rise of ostrava nanotrasen


I think I would prefer ostrava undertale or ostrava fortnite more than ostrava nanotrasen

Neither of those are valid under naming policy!

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:55 pm
by Gigapuddi420
tinodrima7020 wrote:So basically we just removed nicknames?

Having nicknames in policy always seemed a bit off to me as a nicknames aren't supposed to be official. Janice Lean could still be called 'Foxy' by their work colleagues without breaking any policy; they could encourage people around them to call them 'Foxy'. Friendly players might oblige while others might make fun of it and invent new nastier nicknames.

From what has been said so far, most of these come under subjective good faith rulings. Wizards can be named pretty much anything but I imagine someone inventive enough could break other server rules using wizard names, you have to earn your ban with a wizard name. Middle names sound like they are ruled out based on the strict 'Firstname Lastname' basis that is being established for humans. Pepper Mint and Cancer XD are rules legal names that might earn you the particular ire of a admin based on their interpretation of good faith on 'dumb' names. The main issue of names being banned based on good faith judgements hasn't changed and we'll still have arguments about silly rules legal names for a silly space game in the future based on the admin banning you. I'd rather we just set a low absolute minimum standard then only further intervene in obvious cases of abuse like testing the character limit or random gibberish. I never had a issue with names like Ostrava of Nanotransen. I wouldn't have a problem with Pepper Mint or Cancer XD either. They are still names even if the duality of Cancer on a Ethereal makes me chuckle.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:13 pm
by Pepper
So does this outlaw middle names and initials like Randolph P. Checkers and John F. Kennedy or not?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 pm
by Qbmax32
I will literally rebel if you ban Randolph P. Checkers

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:39 pm
by NikNakFlak
I think vaina exploded, he really made a snarky post when all I did was provide counter arguments.

If you really want to go into it. Nanotrasen isn't royalty isn't grasping at straws, it's literally pointing inconsistencies with all these "of" names and Nilon's name. Nanotrasen isn't a place yet all these "of" names refer to places. These are inconsistencies but sure just wave your finger away. "De" and "von" and all this other shit are normal names now because these are "ofs" in literal different languages that DO NOT have English equivalents because the language (such as Dutch), isn't even in english. Those parts of the name simply carried over into english and became part of a normal last name.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:52 pm
by Nilons
NikNakFlak wrote:I think vaina exploded, he really made a snarky post when all I did was provide counter arguments.

If you really want to go into it. Nanotrasen isn't royalty isn't grasping at straws, it's literally pointing inconsistencies with all these "of" names and Nilon's name. Nanotrasen isn't a place yet all these "of" names refer to places. These are inconsistencies but sure just wave your finger away. "De" and "von" and all this other shit are normal names now because these are "ofs" in literal different languages that DO NOT have English equivalents because the language (such as Dutch), isn't even in english. Those parts of the name simply carried over into english and became part of a normal last name.

Ostrava of Boletaria is also banned though because of the hard first last policy so all of those arguments are also true

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:24 pm
by WarbossLincoln
I have a feeling if you have a reasonable ethnic name that includes an article you won't actually get bwoinked about it in game, despite the argument going on here. If you have a hispanic spess man named Miguel de la Rossa or something I doubt you'll run into an issue. And if you do make another 6 page long policy thread about it and see if the shit fest does anything.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:36 pm
by NikNakFlak
Nilons wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:I think vaina exploded, he really made a snarky post when all I did was provide counter arguments.

If you really want to go into it. Nanotrasen isn't royalty isn't grasping at straws, it's literally pointing inconsistencies with all these "of" names and Nilon's name. Nanotrasen isn't a place yet all these "of" names refer to places. These are inconsistencies but sure just wave your finger away. "De" and "von" and all this other shit are normal names now because these are "ofs" in literal different languages that DO NOT have English equivalents because the language (such as Dutch), isn't even in english. Those parts of the name simply carried over into english and became part of a normal last name.

Ostrava of Boletaria is also banned though because of the hard first last policy so all of those arguments are also true


But Ostrava DeBoletaria or Ostrava VonBoletaria would probably be ok and that's what Vaina is arguing about

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:58 pm
by Nilons
NikNakFlak wrote:
Nilons wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:I think vaina exploded, he really made a snarky post when all I did was provide counter arguments.

If you really want to go into it. Nanotrasen isn't royalty isn't grasping at straws, it's literally pointing inconsistencies with all these "of" names and Nilon's name. Nanotrasen isn't a place yet all these "of" names refer to places. These are inconsistencies but sure just wave your finger away. "De" and "von" and all this other shit are normal names now because these are "ofs" in literal different languages that DO NOT have English equivalents because the language (such as Dutch), isn't even in english. Those parts of the name simply carried over into english and became part of a normal last name.

Ostrava of Boletaria is also banned though because of the hard first last policy so all of those arguments are also true


But Ostrava DeBoletaria or Ostrava VonBoletaria would probably be ok and that's what Vaina is arguing about

VonBoletaria and Von Boletaria have no difference except one is fucking stupid for no reason

this is why the policy is stupid, you have to make names dumber to actually fit within it

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:28 pm
by Vaina
wesoda25 wrote:Ok but do we lose anything if we make “of” type names a thing of the past. Vaina is it just gonna ruin the game for you if you don’t see Ostrava of Nanotrasen or Jill desouza running around anymore? Headmins gave their ruling, why don’t you just accept it and stop contesting this stupid little detail?

You're right about one thing: contesting this ruling is pointless. We're still at liberty to express our dissatisfaction with it. Like Goofball said: instead of representing the majority (like the headmins are supposed to) and applying laxer policy, they doubled down on it. It's a massive middle finger to anyone who had any semblance of a stake in this discussion.

Personally, I'm not affected by the removal of nobiliary particles. But I'm allowed to call it for what it is out of principle: utterly arbitrary.

It's not forbidden because it's invalid by even our contemporary standards or because it's stupid--we've proven that much through countless examples. It's forbidden because the rules say so. They don't say why or provide a reasonable argument for it being, of course. They just say so.

When Colonial Marines has a looser naming policy than you, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:33 pm
by NikNakFlak
There were arguments, you just dismissed them because you didn't like them.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:39 pm
by Vaina
NikNakFlak wrote:There were arguments, you just dismissed them because you didn't like them.

Nilons did my job already. I have yet to see a single good reason why nobiliary particles in naming are either in bad faith or don't work other than "them's the rules, kiddo".

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:10 pm
by WarbossLincoln
I should apply to become a trialmin, then become a fullmin, then get enough people to vote for me as a headmin on a platform of making the naming policy great, then never play the game again because I'd sit back and realize how stupid the entire argument is on both sides at the end of the day.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:11 pm
by BeeSting12
I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm
by IkeTG
Vaina wrote:I have yet to see a single good reason why nobiliary particles in naming are either in bad faith or don't work other than "them's the rules, kiddo".

As far as I can tell, the take on honorifics and nicknames were separate from the stance on bad-faith names and are fairly disconnected points in the original post. Nobody's saying they're bad faith, just that they're remaining disallowed in the name of consistency.

BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

That seems like an exception that would fit in the naming policy quite snug :shades:

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:25 pm
by somerandomguy
NikNakFlak wrote:There were arguments, you just dismissed them because you didn't like them.

I should point out that if someone's the heir to NT then they basically are royalty, seeing how powerful NT is

also Ostrava of Nanotrasen is dumb but Ostrava von Nanotrasen is actually pretty cool

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:26 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

okay, what's good faith?

If Nervere and Arianya dislike me however I accidently made a character with von in it then am I safe or do they think I am the big bad griefer known as rshoe?
If I'm best friends and play lfd2 with all the gamemasters and headmins then will I get a free pass on my 6 word name because im following arabic name principles?

What's the limit here, BeeSting?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:27 pm
by Vaina
IkeTG wrote:Nobody's saying they're bad faith,

That's the whole point. If they're not in bad faith, there should be no reason to prohibit them.
IkeTG wrote:just that they're remaining disallowed in the name of consistency.

Consistency of what? First Name Last Name? Ignoring the number of actually ridiculous formats allowed by the rules (now granted to all races), this has been discussed ad nauseum. Nobiliary particles are a valid convention for surnames used in real life.

Not only is it inconsistent with itself, it's, again, arbitrary.

BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

'Von', 'de' and 'of' are all the same in practice and principle. Why single out the others? How is 'of' somehow worse than what ethereals or lizards have?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:32 pm
by BeeSting12
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

okay, what's good faith?

If Nervere and Arianya dislike me however I accidently made a character with von in it then am I safe or do they think I am the big bad griefer known as rshoe?
If I'm best friends and play lfd2 with all the gamemasters and headmins then will I get a free pass on my 6 word name because im following arabic name principles?

What's the limit here, BeeSting?

okay, what's good faith?
Making the name as an actual name and not some epic joke or to spite someone.

If Nervere and Arianya dislike me however I accidently made a character with von in it then am I safe or do they think I am the big bad griefer known as rshoe?
They explicitly allowed von when I talked with them so you're safe.

If I'm best friends and play lfd2 with all the gamemasters and headmins then will I get a free pass on my 6 word name because im following arabic name principles?
Probably not because it would be spammy and annoying. Personally, I'd give anyone shit for it.

What's the limit here, BeeSting?
dont make bad names lmao

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:35 pm
by IkeTG
Vaina wrote:[white noise]

You and I both know what the head admins meant by consistency. I'm just clarifying that the reason why honorifics and nicknames aren't allowed isn't for the same reason that bad-faith names aren't allowed. The reasoning is as plain as day in the original post, and free to reread to make sure you're on the same page as everyone else.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:36 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
BeeSting12 wrote:.

You messed up quotes. rip.

Anyways, I get your theory of just don't make bad names. Obviously a six word name would be retarded however the point is that what exactly makes an admin know a name is bad faith unless it's super obvious like Red Dead Von Redemption Zwei? Their opinion on how you are as a person?

If Nilons asked if he would be allowed to play as Ostrava Von Nanotrasen then that would answer my questions. If the answer to him is yes then alright you won. If the answer is no then why is that? Even if you think he's doing it as some sort of epic joke, he likes his name and he once got it allowed. Where's the limit if he's denied?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:39 pm
by Nilons
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:.

You messed up quotes. rip.

Anyways, I get your theory of just don't make bad names. Obviously a six word name would be retarded however the point is that what exactly makes an admin know a name is bad faith unless it's super obvious like Red Dead Von Redemption Zwei? Their opinion on how you are as a person?

If Nilons asked if he would be allowed to play as Ostrava Von Nanotrasen then that would answer my questions. If the answer to him is yes then alright you won. If the answer is no then why is that? Even if you think he's doing it as some sort of epic joke, he likes his name and he once got it allowed. Where's the limit if he's denied?

I did ask I was told there is a HARD first-name lastname policy

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:39 pm
by Vaina
IkeTG wrote:You and I both know what the head admins meant by consistency.

Clearly not.
I'm just clarifying that the reason why honorifics and nicknames aren't allowed isn't for the same reason that bad-faith names aren't allowed.

And I'm not arguing for honorifics or nicknames, if you were paying attention.
The reasoning is as plain as day in the original post, and free to reread to make sure you're on the same page as everyone else.

Follow your own advice.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:58 pm
by oranges
What if I added a nickname field in prefs that shows up in your character description when you're examined?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:59 pm
by IkeTG
Ayy Lemoh wrote:what exactly makes an admin know a name is bad faith unless it's super obvious like Red Dead Von Redemption Zwei? Their opinion on how you are as a person?

I doubt the case of people being able to obscure their intent well enough to confuse all the admins is going to be an issue that consistently arises. Names made in bad faith are likely to always be obvious, and if it isn't obvious right away, is it really a problem?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:09 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
IkeTG wrote:I doubt the case of people being able to obscure their intent well enough to confuse all the admins is going to be an issue that consistently arises. Names made in bad faith are likely to always be obvious, and if it isn't obvious right away, is it really a problem?

The issue is more of the idea that bias will come into play and that a name would be fine if it weren't for the fact that the person with said name is seen as a jerk. Otherwise, no, there is no problem.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:10 pm
by tinodrima7020
oranges wrote:What if I added a nickname field in prefs that shows up in your character description when you're examined?

:donut2:

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:14 pm
by BeeSting12
we'd get a policy discussion on what acceptable nick names are

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:14 pm
by Nilons
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

either youre misinformed somehow or they were lying, because I was told the direct opposite by nervere

NikNakFlak wrote:But Ostrava DeBoletaria or Ostrava VonBoletaria would probably be ok and that's what Vaina is arguing about

also the fact you're telling players to skirt policy and toe the line because its stupid means you should just not have it in the first place

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:30 pm
by BeeSting12
Nilons wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

either youre misinformed somehow or they were lying, because I was told the direct opposite by nervere

Image

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:34 pm
by CitrusGender
we should scrap this and let ned's naming machine handle names voted by the community

everytime there's a problem with a name, all the admins vote on it and if it reaches an absolute majority, it is allowed.

this is the only method

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:43 pm
by IkeTG
Ayy Lemoh wrote:The issue is more of the idea that bias will come into play and that a name would be fine if it weren't for the fact that the person with said name is seen as a jerk. Otherwise, no, there is no problem.

I think it'd be best to let this issue play out if it ever does and then worry about precedent then, instead of trying to figure out how to factor it into policy now, honestly.

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:44 pm
by Nilons
BeeSting12 wrote:
Nilons wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

either youre misinformed somehow or they were lying, because I was told the direct opposite by nervere

Image

>not even the headmins can agree on the naming policy they made

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:05 pm
by Vaina
Nilons wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Nilons wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I can't remember if it was nerv or ari but they said a name with "von" in it, as long as it's good faith, is allowed.

either youre misinformed somehow or they were lying, because I was told the direct opposite by nervere

Image

>not even the headmins can agree on the naming policy they made

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth :^ )

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:39 pm
by Cobby
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
IkeTG wrote:I doubt the case of people being able to obscure their intent well enough to confuse all the admins is going to be an issue that consistently arises. Names made in bad faith are likely to always be obvious, and if it isn't obvious right away, is it really a problem?

The issue is more of the idea that bias will come into play and that a name would be fine if it weren't for the fact that the person with said name is seen as a jerk. Otherwise, no, there is no problem.


If you're seen as a jerk and make names that cause pause for admins then perhaps you shouldn't have came off as a jerk? or perhaps made a more sensible name?

Re: Naming Policy Changes

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:40 pm
by Shadowflame909
oranges wrote:What if I added a nickname field in prefs that shows up in your character description when you're examined?


Can we add backstories that show up when your character's examined?