Update to rule 1.

Users can post replies, but only game admins, mods, and forum admins may post topics. Mainly for questions and official discussions

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Iatots
 
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Iatots » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 am #517759

Socializing online is a mistake. Just play the fucking game.

Updating server rules, from my POV, has usually been a drastic action following a shitshow in the policy / FNR subforums, which this situation really is not. An admin with a strong position would just put their foot down and their judgement would build precedence. Rule lawyers have always been around but they have never been given ground unless they have an actual point. What's so special now?



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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby IkeTG » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:51 am #517765

TheMythicGhost wrote:
IkeTG wrote:If bans are going to be handed out for shitty OOC conduct, why wouldn't you want this to be clarified or outlined in the rules? If it's merely a clarification of already-existing precedence, it wouldn't change how the rule is enforced, right?


Here's the thing you dumb pup, and everyone else with the same sentence worded in many different flavors.

This
We're all here to have a good time supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.


Was like this because OOC and Deadchat can be ignored via the OOC -> Ignore option. You can ignore both OOC messages, and deadchat messages (as they actually are OOC communication) via this method. Any player being harassed IC without prior provocation over a multitude of rounds usually is punished by the rule stated above too, but the precedent of it regarding metagrudging.

We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules, this also includes harassing a player OOC (Out of character). Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.


All this allows is effectively allowing targeted bans towards people you dislike the opinion of, or inconvenienced you in some way because you can now label it as "harassment". I don't even think Morto put a single shred of thought into this at all and didn't think to gauge the community feedback on the suggested changes, and that's completely odd coming from one of the most player friendly admins that investigates instances of grief regardless of round if reported to her.

In short, it's a redundant ruling that has a high potential to be misused in the same way the word filter has a high chance of being misused by a sensitive individual (though luckily there's no player control over that, so the select people that can abuse it can be addressed).

This is a complete non-response to what I said. This doesn't allow anything if bans were already being handed out for OOC conduct, it just clarifies that you can be banned for being an ass too much in OOC. I'm not seeing how this opens up some can of worms to enable abusive admins if they could've banned you for acting awful too much in OOC already.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Darkgenerallord » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:44 am #517766

We could in fact always ban you for being a shit in OOC.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Kingtrin » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:44 am #517769

Hey do you guys remember all of the bitching that was done when rule 1 was too vague? I do.

If your argument boils down to "but I don't trust the admins judgement" then congratu-fucking-lations you have made a case for things to be even less vague, not more. People already abuse the vagueness of rules to their advantage, and thats not something you can fix by complaining about each and every change. This one in particular is supposed to be a clarification and not even a new precedent which makes the complaints even more flippant. The fundamental enforcement of the rules shouldn't even change. I cannot see how leaving new players more informed and admin appeals easier to process is not worth pursuing. Actually even if a headmin or admin went and abused their powers following this clarification that should not reflect poorly on the new wording, it should reflect on the shitter who abused their power. Even in the case of a corrupt admin I still fail to see how the wording is to blame.

You want to see what a lack of rule enforcement in dchat causes? go observe in CM midway through a round and tell me thats the kind of bullshit you want to allow to fester. It does happen on TG but the general playerbase assumption has been that it is not actionable if its dchat salt, hence the lack of widespread complaints.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Farquaar » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:01 am #517771

No strong feelings towards the change one way or the other, but I'm wary of the slippery slope that communities can fall down once they start putting premium value on hurt feelings.

A poll might be interesting. I'd like to see what non-forumites think.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:35 am #517795

I think admins should use the "mute ooc for dead players" button more. It really goes a long way

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby oranges » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:33 am #517799

Grazyn wrote:I think admins should use the "mute ooc for dead players" button more. It really goes a long way

i've never heard of this one before

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:04 am #517804

It's called Toggle dead OOC and it's the fastest way (out of selectively muting shitters) to stop flame, harassment and shitposting dead in its tracks. It also doesn't give an announcement unlike regular OOC mute so normal, living players would just see OOC suddenly become a calm and friendly place where they can still ask questions and have civil dicourse while salty ghosts choke on their own salt.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Togopal » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:31 pm #517830

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Nabski » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:03 pm #517841

Okay Togopal I guess you could call that a post. Typically good posts are fun and engaging for the reader and add something of value to the thread. If you keep up this habit of posts I'll have no choice but to bring up your behavior with a forum moderator.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Nervere » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:18 pm #517843

Blessed togopost.

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bandit
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby bandit » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:43 pm #517856

Grazyn wrote:It's called Toggle dead OOC and it's the fastest way (out of selectively muting shitters) to stop flame, harassment and shitposting dead in its tracks. It also doesn't give an announcement unlike regular OOC mute so normal, living players would just see OOC suddenly become a calm and friendly place where they can still ask questions and have civil dicourse while salty ghosts choke on their own salt.


unfortunately it also tends to lead to players immediately flooding ahelps/prayer/IC say/literally any other venue they have with salt and/or shitposting
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admin feedback pls

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:53 am #517880

I do have mixed feelings about the update as it can be weaponized against people you personally dislike, then again it saved me some money by not having to buy a SteelSeries headset and get professionals to take down the bullies in SS13.


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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Togopal » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:37 am #517990

Nabski wrote:Okay Togopal I guess you could call that a post. Typically good posts are fun and engaging for the reader and add something of value to the thread. If you keep up this habit of posts I'll have no choice but to bring up your behavior with a forum moderator.


Nervere wrote:Blessed togopost.

:heart:
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby FloranOtten » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:54 am #518017

MortoSasye wrote:When enough players (around 10-15) express a desire for a poll to me.


I'd quite like a poll
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1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby CreationPro » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:54 pm #518041

Do a poll fren
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Cobby » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:12 pm #518075

this does literally nothing but i'm going to post about it vehemently doing nothing to the point where it becomes 3 pages of me saying the same thing.

oh btw this does nothing
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby TheMythicGhost » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:08 am #518109

I'd like a poll.
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everyone when referring to respii wrote:she


deedubya wrote:Posts you don't like aren't illegitimate. Points you don't agree with aren't disproven just because you post a disagreement. Points of view that can negatively affect you(a greyshirt main) aren't automatically negative as a whole.

The sooner you learn things like this, the sooner you can actually participate in fair and open discourse, instead of just screeching like a child when someone wants to take away the toys you use that have been abused constantly.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Malkraz » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:48 am #518125

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wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby terranaut » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:43 am #518132

FloranOtten wrote:
MortoSasye wrote:When enough players (around 10-15) express a desire for a poll to me.


I'd quite like a poll
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Lazengann » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:28 am #518140

voting AGAINST the poll

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby deedubya » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:54 am #518148

Lazengann wrote:voting AGAINST the poll

Why aren't you an admin on goon? You'd be a better fit there.
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby High Impact Dolphin » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:42 am #518211

We now have 13 players that have requested the fabled poll

Now Morto will surely follow through, and definitely word the poll question neutrally :)
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Gratian » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:59 pm #518291

Poll it up

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Xeroxemnas » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:54 am #518313

Remember, democracy bad when it goes against the interests of the ruling class (just like brexit :x )

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby 4dplanner » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm #518449

as a centrist I demand there is a poll as to whether we should have a poll
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby John_Oxford » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:15 pm #518452

imagine being upset about things on the internet.

lol
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Nabski » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:49 pm #518492

Things have gotten so bad Oxford is back.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby oranges » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:42 pm #518510

I want a poll on if we should be using a poll at all

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby D&B » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:11 am #518515

Si tienes que cambiar las reglas porque una sola persona causa suficiente drama, por ende tu consideras que cambiar las reglas es necesario, el problema no son los jugadores, sino la persona que con actos de hyper sensibilidad y un acto de victima mueve su propia agenda para poder darse poderes para seguir con sus goles politicos y censoradores abusando de tu buena voluntad y conciencia.

De aqui a unos cuantos meses, cuando todo sea peor, vas a lamentar no haber removido a esta manzana podrida, a este ser toxico que con su sola presencia, y acciones a causado tanto drama y malestar en tan poco tiempo.

El que traduzca esto chupa pollas btw
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:25 am #518517

D&B wrote:Si tienes que cambiar las reglas porque una sola persona causa suficiente drama, por ende tu consideras que cambiar las reglas es necesario, el problema no son los jugadores, sino la persona que con actos de hyper sensibilidad y un acto de victima mueve su propia agenda para poder darse poderes para seguir con sus goles politicos y censoradores abusando de tu buena voluntad y conciencia.

De aqui a unos cuantos meses, cuando todo sea peor, vas a lamentar no haber removido a esta manzana podrida, a este ser toxico que con su sola presencia, y acciones a causado tanto drama y malestar en tan poco tiempo.

El que traduzca esto chupa pollas btw

If you have to change the rules because a single person causes enough drama, you should consider why changing the rules is necessary. The problem is not the players, but the person who, in their hypersensitivity and perceived victimhood, pushes their own agenda to be able to give himself the power to continue with his political goals and censor people, abusing your good will and conscience(?).

In a few months, when everything is worse, you will regret not having removed this rotten apple, this toxic being that with its presence alone, and with its actions, has caused so much drama and discomfort in such a short time.

Translator's note: I suck dicks.
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby oranges » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:10 am #518533

you're right repukan, we should have banned you fucking ages ago

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Snuffleupagus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:45 am #518534

Why’s someone posting a statistic about transsexuals bannable? Was it just the intent of it?

If I were to just give the opinion in ooc chat that transsexualism is a psychiatric mental illness as classified in the DSM and Cynic is in the game by pure coincidence is that going to get me bwoink’d?

I mean it just sounds to me like you’re overcomplicating things and further your answer to it being enforced is up to “headmin.” discretion. A headmin was quite hasty to alter rule 1. How do we know they’ll be truly subjective? What if it’s a friend of theirs?

I vote poll.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:44 am #518536

Sandshark808 wrote:
D&B wrote:Si tienes que cambiar las reglas porque una sola persona causa suficiente drama, por ende tu consideras que cambiar las reglas es necesario, el problema no son los jugadores, sino la persona que con actos de hyper sensibilidad y un acto de victima mueve su propia agenda para poder darse poderes para seguir con sus goles politicos y censoradores abusando de tu buena voluntad y conciencia.

De aqui a unos cuantos meses, cuando todo sea peor, vas a lamentar no haber removido a esta manzana podrida, a este ser toxico que con su sola presencia, y acciones a causado tanto drama y malestar en tan poco tiempo.

El que traduzca esto chupa pollas btw

If you have to change the rules because a single person causes enough drama, you should consider why changing the rules is necessary. The problem is not the players, but the person who, in their hypersensitivity and perceived victimhood, pushes their own agenda to be able to give himself the power to continue with his political goals and censor people, abusing your good will and conscience(?).

In a few months, when everything is worse, you will regret not having removed this rotten apple, this toxic being that with its presence alone, and with its actions, has caused so much drama and discomfort in such a short time.

Translator's note: I suck dicks.

Long-standing game features have been removed because of a single person so I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to rules.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:47 am #518537

Grazyn wrote:Long-standing game features have been removed because of a single person so I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to rules.

My spanish isn't super great, but the way I translated it he was saying that if the rules are changed in haste to appease one person's sore ass, it will lead to a lot worse in the future because a bad actor is being given a big impact on the community.

And in case it wasn't obvious my post was a translation of the spanish post. The last sentence he had was "whoever translates this sucks dick."
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:18 am #518540

Yeah it's a translation. My point still stands. You can have a single person who's being an obnoxious bully but you can't ban him because there is no rule for it, so you make one. Would you think this prompts more shitters in the future to have a shitty behaviour in the attempt to change the rules?

At the end of the day it's the headmin's decision only. They can decide case by case with common sense and if they think new rules are needed, so be it. What I don't like is this hostile climate that shifts the blame on those who complain. Nobody should feel pressured to not complain for the fear of being labelled a "bad actor" who just wants to push unwarranted change with his whining.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Snuffleupagus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:29 am #518541

Grazyn wrote:Yeah it's a translation. My point still stands. You can have a single person who's being an obnoxious bully but you can't ban him because there is no rule for it, so you make one. Would you think this prompts more shitters in the future to have a shitty behaviour in the attempt to change the rules?

At the end of the day it's the headmin's decision only. They can decide case by case with common sense and if they think new rules are needed, so be it. What I don't like is this hostile climate that shifts the blame on those who complain. Nobody should feel pressured to not complain for the fear of being labelled a "bad actor" who just wants to push unwarranted change with his whining.


What I don’t get is how the fuck do people know he’s a tranny and why would they put that out there?

You might fuck goats. I don’t know. I don’t care. You don’t need to proclaim it either, but if you did, expect some taunting for it. This transsexual dude is just as much at fault for exposing they’re transgender. No one gives a fuck. It’s not pertinent to the game. There should be a rule about not sharing innate details about your life to other users, if you do realize you’re opening yourself up for ridicule. It’s the fucking Internet. Not a “safe space.”

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:38 am #518542

Snuffleupagus wrote:What I don’t get is how the fuck do people know he’s a tranny and why would they put that out there?

You might fuck goats. I don’t know. I don’t care. You don’t need to proclaim it either, but if you did, expect some taunting for it. This transsexual dude is just as much at fault for exposing they’re transgender. No one gives a fuck. It’s not pertinent to the game. There should be a rule about not sharing innate details about your life to other users, if you do realize you’re opening yourself up for ridicule. It’s the fucking Internet. Not a “safe space.”

We know it because he says it any chance he gets. And he has, in the past, blown up and used admin powers to mess with people for needling him about it.

If it wasn't so clearly a sore spot in an unstable person's self-image it wouldn't get picked at by people.
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:31 am #518547

Snuffleupagus wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Yeah it's a translation. My point still stands. You can have a single person who's being an obnoxious bully but you can't ban him because there is no rule for it, so you make one. Would you think this prompts more shitters in the future to have a shitty behaviour in the attempt to change the rules?

At the end of the day it's the headmin's decision only. They can decide case by case with common sense and if they think new rules are needed, so be it. What I don't like is this hostile climate that shifts the blame on those who complain. Nobody should feel pressured to not complain for the fear of being labelled a "bad actor" who just wants to push unwarranted change with his whining.


What I don’t get is how the fuck do people know he’s a tranny and why would they put that out there?

You might fuck goats. I don’t know. I don’t care. You don’t need to proclaim it either, but if you did, expect some taunting for it. This transsexual dude is just as much at fault for exposing they’re transgender. No one gives a fuck. It’s not pertinent to the game. There should be a rule about not sharing innate details about your life to other users, if you do realize you’re opening yourself up for ridicule. It’s the fucking Internet. Not a “safe space.”

OOC has discussions about stuff not pertinent to the game all the time. If someone is obviously trolling, fishing for reactions, ban him. If someone is feeding the troll by taking the bait and flaming, ban him. But OOC not being a safe place doesn't mean that it's mandatory to dogpile on anyone saying anything. Again, admins should be able to tell the difference between trolling/baiting and random stuff. This isn't junior high, I think players should have the reasonable expectation to not being jumped upon and harassed to death for saying stuff like "I'm trans/gay".

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby deedubya » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 am #518548

15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Snuffleupagus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:23 pm #518574

deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.


I believe MSO should step in here. Personally.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby tinodrima7020 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:24 pm #518576

deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Snuffleupagus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:32 pm #518577

Grazyn wrote:
Snuffleupagus wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Yeah it's a translation. My point still stands. You can have a single person who's being an obnoxious bully but you can't ban him because there is no rule for it, so you make one. Would you think this prompts more shitters in the future to have a shitty behaviour in the attempt to change the rules?

At the end of the day it's the headmin's decision only. They can decide case by case with common sense and if they think new rules are needed, so be it. What I don't like is this hostile climate that shifts the blame on those who complain. Nobody should feel pressured to not complain for the fear of being labelled a "bad actor" who just wants to push unwarranted change with his whining.


What I don’t get is how the fuck do people know he’s a tranny and why would they put that out there?

You might fuck goats. I don’t know. I don’t care. You don’t need to proclaim it either, but if you did, expect some taunting for it. This transsexual dude is just as much at fault for exposing they’re transgender. No one gives a fuck. It’s not pertinent to the game. There should be a rule about not sharing innate details about your life to other users, if you do realize you’re opening yourself up for ridicule. It’s the fucking Internet. Not a “safe space.”

OOC has discussions about stuff not pertinent to the game all the time. If someone is obviously trolling, fishing for reactions, ban him. If someone is feeding the troll by taking the bait and flaming, ban him. But OOC not being a safe place doesn't mean that it's mandatory to dogpile on anyone saying anything. Again, admins should be able to tell the difference between trolling/baiting and random stuff. This isn't junior high, I think players should have the reasonable expectation to not being jumped upon and harassed to death for saying stuff like "I'm trans/gay".


I’m not disagreeing with you. My point is why are you telling people you’re trans and or gay in the first place. How is that relevant? At all? It’s kind of a random thing to just bring up in a video game in ooc chat with random fucking people you don’t know. Unless you’re telling people it’s a weakness. I’ve got news for you. Humans exploit weakness in real life and do it doubly so on the Internet. So if you’re dumb enough to expose a weakness or sore spot expect double the ridicule. No one fucking cares if you take HrT or dress in high heels. No one knows unless you tell them.

My point is that it has no relevance. Personal shit doesn’t belong in round. If you’re openly talking about life choices to some random fuckheads who you’re only going to see occasionally expect to get ridiculed. This rule sounds specifically like it came about because a friend who happens to be a headmin is standing up for a friend who happens to be an admin.

I’m the last person who wants to agree with scuwwa bawdus but for fucks sake there IS an ignore feature. If someone goes as far as creating a new account to circumvent that ignore THAT’S targeted harassment.

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby terranaut » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:07 pm #518600

Grazyn wrote:OOC has discussions about stuff not pertinent to the game all the time. If someone is obviously trolling, fishing for reactions, ban him. If someone is feeding the troll by taking the bait and flaming, ban him.

Why?
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Grazyn » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:44 pm #518615

terranaut wrote:
Grazyn wrote:OOC has discussions about stuff not pertinent to the game all the time. If someone is obviously trolling, fishing for reactions, ban him. If someone is feeding the troll by taking the bait and flaming, ban him.

Why?

Because otherwise OOC turns into flameshit general and they have to mute it anyway?

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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby MortoSasye » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:18 am #518654

deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.


We're currently on a stalemate with one headmin being against it and another being ok with it. This is the reason for the delay, and I apologize for it.
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:34 am #518655

Isnt the point of having three headmins to avoid the possibility of stalemates?
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:29 am #518657

MortoSasye wrote:
deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.


We're currently on a stalemate with one headmin being against it and another being ok with it. This is the reason for the delay, and I apologize for it.

You what? You realize you only need 2/3rds majority to decide on things, not a unanimous vote?
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby Sandshark808 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:44 am #518658

MortoSasye wrote:
deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.


We're currently on a stalemate with one headmin being against it and another being ok with it. This is the reason for the delay, and I apologize for it.

If it wasn't something that could happen without majority approval, why did you promise it in the first place?
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Re: Update to rule 1.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:54 am #518663

Sandshark808 wrote:
MortoSasye wrote:
deedubya wrote:15 people later, we still don't have a community poll over this rule change. We had the minimum 10 that Morto asked for days ago, too.


We're currently on a stalemate with one headmin being against it and another being ok with it. This is the reason for the delay, and I apologize for it.

If it wasn't something that could happen without majority approval, why did you promise it in the first place?

Literally all headmin actions and promises work that way. I promised ban appeals and got blocked by the other two headmins. You can promise that you'll propose it to the other two headmins and support it; you cannot promise that you'll force it through, because the only person that can do that is the host.
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