Trialmin Review: Cynic716

[Nabski]

While I don't speak for the current headmins, I'm going to note that as a general precedent an admin's conduct when not acting as a administrator (i.e. shitposting in NTR Hut, speaking in discord in a non-official capacity, chatting in OOC etc) has generally not been subject to scrutiny more so then any other random player. We've had admins who have been acerbic or combative before and depending on who you ask they would often be cited as great administrators.

My point being that if the main thrust of your complaint is "I don't like Cynic as a person" - this isn't actually relevant to their trialmin review, atleast going on how these matters have been handled in the past.

This is backed up by several generation of headmins making it clear in, for example, the admin complaint rules that note:

This is not a place for complaints about forum/discord behaviour.

I thought the guideline was if you were going to shitpost or stir drama the only official /tg/ location you could do it was in the hut. Everywhere else was supposed to be professional. In retrospect I'm pretty sure I just thought wrong, but that's why I never posted shit in the admin auditorium.

EDIT TO STAY ON TOPIC: I HAVE NO OPINION WHO THIS PERSON IS BUT I WANTED TO GET IN ON THE THREAD MID DUMPSTER FIRE BEFORE IT BURNED OUT. If they want to prove their chops just answer yes or no to this. Do you know how to do custom sprite replacements, and can manage do it with clothing?

[Dr. Aura]

I think it's fine and normal to extend a trial for inactivity because we need to be able to see how a admin functions over a period of time.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

The previous trial ended clearly on the note they were capable of using their in game powers properly and that was during the period they did get a lot of shit from players and responded to it. In a very real sense they did that time, they were very active during the original trial; more so then most Game Admins. As little activity as we might have seen over the past six weeks, no new issues have arisen.

Keywords: last trial. This is an extension of that trial period, which for the purposes of this review I am considering separately from the other trial period, which is why I'm not rehashing the same arguments in light of differing facts and circumstances. They could have been entirely competent then, as was noted when I posted in the first review, but this is not then. If this were the first review of someone else, my pointing to their lack of activity would be one thing, but in the context that this is a second trial, an extension of a first, to see if they could operate without losing their cool and lashing out at people, only to do so by not interacting with the game at all when it is the job of an admin to do just that, is counter-intuitive. This, in and of itself, is the new issue I am bringing up. Among other things, as noted.

don't call me a he you fucking dirt reptile

Second, deeb and sand are both people I have literally never interacted with (at least not knowingly or willingly) at any time outside of the forums. Third, imagine thinking that either of them have opinions worth listening to in any context except when deciding which brand of paint you'd like to taste. Fourth, my initial delay was complete horseshit based on hearsay and outright LIES it basically boiled down to "stop disagreeing with people for saying really horrible shit that we agree is horrible and do not want them to say but let them say anyway" and also that one incident with Dr. Aura where he told me he's allowed to make shitty transphobic jokes because "as a soldier" he's "trained to lack empathy" (he actually said that I swear to god)

In all honesty though if I got like any reason other than the one they gave I'd be pretty chill about it and I do still love all the head jannies, I just think they made a really bone headed decision on this particular topic and I ain't afraid to tell them so. also cynic is a call admin make her headmin NOW

In one fell swoop we can observe that not only have the old habits cropped up in the same circumstances that they appeared in the first trial review, but they believe themselves completely justified in doing so and see nothing wrong with the conduct that lead them to have their trial extended in the first place. Good grief.

[oranges]

snip

If you're going to post you should be open about the fact that the two of you have political disagreements, which basically renders any feedback you have suspect


I am a shitload more abrasive than cynic, and I was still made an admin, without any trial extension at al, even though peopel were concerned about my abrasive personality, extending cynic's trial was a total washout by the admins.

[Dr. Aura]

snip

If you're going to post you should be open about the fact that the two of you have political disagreements, which basically renders any feedback you have suspect

Throw any other name on it and it still applies.

[oranges]

Not really, because you're making a mountain out of molehill, and it's something you've never brought up about any other trial admin ever, even though a lot of them have had bad reactions to jokes as well.

You’re so obviously biased in taking up this cause that it's not even funny.

Not a single one of the people complaining about cynic's "behaviour" in ooc or discord even bothered to show up to my trial thread.

[oranges]

in fact I guarantee the only reason their trial got extended is because nevere has the same political disagreements with them, there's absolutely zero evidence they have ever let their personal views influence their in game administration.

There was zero standing for the original extension, we have admins who have done far worse and got nothing more than a rap over the hands.

in summary, promote.

[Dr. Aura]

Those are your claims to argue, such is your right. Until such point,

You can attack the nature of my arguments, the people who agree with them or myself all you want, but my points still stand in the face of such criticism.

[Lazengann]

Whenever cynic goes hard in the paint like that my day is that much better, it's my favorite quality about them. I respect how freely they give their opinion without fear of the replies and I think it's an important quality in someone in a decision making role.

It's not unreasonable to get upset when people attack your identity instead of the content you post in a video game community and basically I think you're all a bunch of losers.

[Gigapuddi420]

I mean if you ignore arguments counter to your own then I suppose you could claim people are just attacking the nature of your argument.

They've done the work in-game even when they were criticized for their actions out of game. The admin work they put in was seen as satisfactory; to my knowledge that hasn't changed and the point we're on now is that they didn't admin much in the last six weeks. While we can't judge too much on how their in-game attitude has changed that wasn't the focus of the extension. They were previously fine in game and I can't imagine they degraded since then. So the issue is their out of game attitude which has at least plateaued from less interaction and in the few cases I witnessed personally; improved.

If the Headmins decide the inactivity is a issue and they want to see more, power to them. Admin Trials could do with being more rigorous as it basically comes down to 'did you have any public problems in the last two months'. All the better if they dig up some real criticism for a admin to improve on because god knows I never got any and I felt I could improve on a lot of things.

[oranges]

trialmin reviews are for the most part, a joke

[angelstarri]

plapatin was inactive during his trial period and he is headmin now what does that tell you

[deedubya]

snip

If you're going to post you should be open about the fact that the two of you have political disagreements, which basically renders any feedback you have suspect

You can argue from a point of bias and still make legitimate points. The truth is the truth regardless of which side it hails from.

[oranges]

it's not a fact when it's just objective evaluation of someone else, so no, the truth isn't the truth

[cynic716]

Okay you're all dumb but I appreciate the cool people taking my side in all this.

First, I called sandshark a dirt reptile cause his name is sand shark. I probably should've expected a first grade tier joke like that to be too high class to be understood by the likes of wesoda or deeb. Second, I'll come out and say it I fully believe the headmin's "criticism" was just fullblown bullshit, like, I specifically went through and discussed it with each of them one on one looking for literally anything else, I would have taken "You're too inactive" over the bullshit I got fed about being too aggressive or whatever. The shit everyone is complaining about simply is either untrue or completely misrepresented, by the by I'd like to point out the only people actually against my promotion so far is all the same people that thought takov getting banned was some grave injustice because all he did was "troll an admin" by calling me a tranny. Like literal slur targeting my identity is just banter but calling sandshark a dirt reptile is rude and just down right too mean. Like, okay buddy.
Basically, every example of bad behavior given to me was them just getting something COMPLETELY wrong or basing it off what they were told after the fact by people who weren't even apart of it. I specifically went through and broke down each example and told them where they got it completely wrong, eventually it just boiled down to "well uhm people get extentions for dumb shit all the time we still think you're a good admin so don't worry about it it's not a big deal" This whole thing is a giant waste of everyone's time and energy.

btw, I wasn't laying low I've just been busy with personal shit. If I was laying low or whatever I'd just be apologizing for my previous behavior or not even commenting in this thread actively saying the headmins were wrong to do it and that their criticism sucks ass.

[Cobby]

TL;DR DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER YOU DIRT REPTILE and other horrible reactions. I don't think they should be an admin since they act rather... Impulsive to transgender jokes. I believe they should take these jokes more Likely or a horrible mistake is bound to happen someday.

Just out of curiosity can you point to a transgender "joke" that the user got ... impulsive to?

Let's assume joke means everyone involved (but cynic) was acting in good faith.

[wesoda25]

I literally took your side you fucking dipshit

[cynic716]

I literally took your side you fucking dipshit

look these names all blend together

[IkeTG]

You can argue from a point of bias and still make legitimate points. The truth is the truth regardless of which side it hails from.

But you aren't making legitimate points, you apparently want Cynic to be held to a higher bar of standards than other trialmins have been held to because you don't like the trialmin in question. Maybe you should be explaining why your points are legitimate instead of merely saying they are legitimate. If the credibility of your argument is under question, you don't really get anywhere by doubling down on the point, after all.

[BONERMASTER]

Takov bellows from the heavens, his furios, eartshaking roar demands only one thing: Justice!

[Qbmax32]

promote them NOW NOW NOW

[Shadowflame909]

if I haven't tabled this trialmin how do I even know they're real?

Thoughts on their adminning?

Basically the same kind of admin gamer we've seen before. Promote. Hope they dont wean themselves off to the point of burnout.

I hope we can all get through all of this LGBTQ controversy nonsense. It's just history repeating itself.

[Timonk]

TL;DR DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER YOU DIRT REPTILE and other horrible reactions. I don't think they should be an admin since they act rather... Impulsive to transgender jokes. I believe they should take these jokes more Likely or a horrible mistake is bound to happen someday.

Just out of curiosity can you point to a transgender "joke" that the user got ... impulsive to?

Let's assume joke means everyone involved (but cynic) was acting in good faith.

I mean I would quote doot but he kinda took it too far

[deedubya]

You can argue from a point of bias and still make legitimate points. The truth is the truth regardless of which side it hails from.

But you aren't making legitimate points, you apparently want Cynic to be held to a higher bar of standards than other trialmins have been held to because you don't like the trialmin in question. Maybe you should be explaining why your points are legitimate instead of merely saying they are legitimate. If the credibility of your argument is under question, you don't really get anywhere by doubling down on the point, after all.

A: How is stating that they lack the temperament required to be an admin not a legitimate point? Especially after they demonstrated that in this very topic in response to people criticizing them.
B: Regardless, I raised that point in response to oranges trying to toss out Aura's series of posts based on "muh bias" as though he didn't raise perfectly valid and well-reasoned points that need to be addressed.
C: I hold all trialmins and current sitting admins to the same standard. If you'll recall, I spoke out about Alphonzo when he was an admin, and about Anne in their trialmin review. It doesn't matter what my personal opinion on them is; if they're doing a poor job and making the community a worse place, they shouldn't hold the position.

[Timonk]

Wow deed is right for once

[terranaut]

Imagine telling someone they need to be able to chill and then getting mad over being called a dirt reptile
You're all retarded lol

[NecromancerAnne]

I did considerably worse administrative conduct shit before and after getting the purple, so frankly, if the worst that can be leveled at them is 'They said some mean stuff' and were combative, and that's what stops them being promoted, I'm absolutely calling foul on that. If the headmins capitulate to the forum lurkers looking to bandwagon against Cynic because of drama that's barely worth even giving a shit about several months down the line, then I think Alphonzo saw the writing on the walls and had the right idea. If they weren't worthy two months in, they weren't two months out, and probably should have long been removed from the team. Yet none of this has happened, so further delays do nothing but keep them in limbo because of handwringing over what a small band of detractors with an agenda will think, who have no constructive feedback and no actual interest in the benefit of our administration other than whether it is complicit in their behavior, which largely amounts to 'let me be a massive disingenuous piece of shit at every opportunity I can without repercussion'.

[Jimmius]

you may have pointed out that all my arguments are irrelevent, pointed out that the only reason i'm posting at all is because i personally dislike the trialmin, and therefore everything i've said has no bearing on the promotion and is in fact me being a little bitchly, and yet curiously you ignore the meat of my argument, which is that chewbacca lives on endor. by refusing to debunk my argument, i think it stands tall as a reason that this trialmin should not be promoted

[wesoda25]

He doesn’t live on endor retard

[Jimmius]

He doesn’t live on endor retard

ah, i see you are insulting me simply because my argument is full of shit. that's an ad homenim sir, that means that actually i was right all along

[IkeTG]

A: How is stating that they lack the temperament required to be an admin not a legitimate point? Especially after they demonstrated that in this very topic in response to people criticizing them.
B: Regardless, I raised that point in response to oranges trying to toss out Aura's series of posts based on "muh bias" as though he didn't raise perfectly valid and well-reasoned points that need to be addressed.
C: I hold all trialmins and current sitting admins to the same standard. If you'll recall, I spoke out about Alphonzo when he was an admin, and about Anne in their trialmin review. It doesn't matter what my personal opinion on them is; if they're doing a poor job and making the community a worse place, they shouldn't hold the position.

Your idea of temperament is unreasonable and unfair to trialmins, and I personally think it would be counterproductive to heed your criticism due to you being an unreliable point of view. Further, the standard you hold other trialmins to is also unreasonable, considering the specific admins in question you say you spoke out against went on to get promoted.
If you want people to listen to your criticism, you need to make it workable and fair. As it stands if what you and Aura said is listened to, and another extension is added with the supposed vagueness given last time, the next trial thread will be the same rodeo, and it will waste the time of everyone involved.

[Dr. Aura]

If you want people to listen to your criticism, you need to make it workable and fair.

If asking people who want to be admins to perform admin duties during the period of their admin trial isn't workable or fair, I don't know what I can tell you.

[IkeTG]

Historically I'm seeing trialmins who are inactive having their trials be suspended until they can be active at the very most, if they aren't just promoted regardless. I don't see your point of view as fair, considering this precedence.

[Dr. Aura]

Funny, I recall my first post advocating for an extension to allow them to do what the trail was poised to, not deadminning them on the same grounds.
Pot, meet kettle.

[IkeTG]

The trial review thread in question I'm referring to was suspended due to the trialmin's stated inability to administrate due to real life circumstances, so even that precedence wouldn't apply here.

[Dr. Aura]

btw, I wasn't laying low I've just been busy with personal shit.

[IkeTG]

This is just further convincing me that you are being disingenuous. I guess if you pull back the long-winded diatribes it really all is just personal miffs all the way down. I stand by what I said completely that you're being unreasonable.

[Dr. Aura]

If you read any of those long winded diatribes you'd know you were wrong. Just because your points are refuted in the face of evidence presented doesn't mean I am insincere or pretending to know less about this than I do, I don't need to play Socratic irony when you're just wrong from the start. Considering you've stopped presenting positions in favor of attacks on my character, I rest my case.

[deedubya]

I did considerably worse administrative conduct shit before and after getting the purple, so frankly, if the worst that can be leveled at them is 'They said some mean stuff' and were combative, and that's what stops them being promoted, I'm absolutely calling foul on that.

Hey! Finally, something we can agree on: You shouldn't have been promoted either.

Further, the standard you hold other trialmins to is also unreasonable, considering the specific admins in question you say you spoke out against went on to get promoted.
If you want people to listen to your criticism, you need to make it workable and fair.

I don't find it unreasonable at all to expect a certain level of professionalism from the people that essentially get to decide if we get to continue playing here or not. Considering one of them had to resign in shame after angering the entirety of the community over a permaban made under false pretenses - and the other had a successful complaint levied against them recently due to their ego ruining someone's round - I don't think my judgements were misguided then, nor do I think they're misguided now.
Likewise, criticism doesn't always have to be workable. It is up to the person receiving the criticism to work with it - learning, adapting, and improving as a person. If they choose not to do so, and instead double down (as they have done in this very topic) on the things they've been criticized for and make excuses to justify them, then what business do they have in a position of power over others?

As it stands if what you and Aura said is listened to, and another extension is added with the supposed vagueness given last time, the next trial thread will be the same rodeo, and it will waste the time of everyone involved.

Agreed. This is why I believe the trial period should be terminated, not extended. They were given an extension. They were given a reason why. They refused to learn anything from it, and called out the very headmins that extended their trial for doing so. Nothing more needs to be said there.

[Lazengann]

t. loli catgirl

[oranges]

and a ban evader, who blatantly lied in their appeal.

[D&B]

If you can't refute his points surely attacking his person makes you right, fellas

[Qbmax32]

I mean yeah, why is a retards opinion worth anything

[D&B]

Because if it weren't we wouldn't have need for an admin team

[deedubya]

oh man, you guys got me by not refuting any of the points raised thus far

how will I ever recover

[Lazengann]

t. loli nekoshoujo

[Farquaar]

I don't really have a stake in this either way, but I think that Dr. Aura's points have so far been unaddressed. So far, the true counterarguments have been:

NecromancerAnne: Trialmins don't have to be active during their trial because some full admins are often inactive.
Gigapuddi: They were active during their first trial, so there's no need for them to be active in-game during their second.
Oranges: Other admins are abrasive and still retain their position/passed their trial. (Trials are a formality)

Whether they are substantive is up to the reader, but ultimately it seems that its a question of trial standards. If it' the view that trials are a pointless formality is as prevalent as it appears, then that should probably be brought to policy discussion. However, if trials are actually meant to observe new admins and correct any problematic behavioural patterns, then Dr. Aura's points are still valid.

[Gigapuddi420]

Originally I wanted to break down exactly the trial admin period and the review process for better context on why it works this way, but this thread is long enough and the arguments are completely circular at this point. Instead I'll just clarify and sum up.

The trial period IS about observing and correcting admins as they work, they are given a lot of freedom and at any point throughout it the trial can be ended if there is a issue. The review itself is mostly a formality because the trial period itself IS the review. At any time players can offer feedback or file complaints just like they can with Game Admins, people have already formed their opinion by the time the review comes around and it's not unusual for the Headmin team to think they haven't seen enough to make a proper judgement and extend the trial.

It was my personal opinion that we've seen Cynic's character as admin and in-game at least there were no significant problems holding them back. The previous review extended the trial period on the face of it, because of issues Cynic had out of game but commented that their in-game conduct was fine. It's not exactly the same as saying 'well we need more time to judge if this person can admin', the criticism was more about discord bullshit and the impression that cynic would get into arguments then push for moderators to ban people who were being shit as a result of the argument. While I'm at it, it's not really conclusive to say it's wrong for Cynic to disagree with the last reviews conclusion... unless you're all saying we must agree with the Head Admins rulings. You can think a ruling is bullshit and not get into trouble again, we're human after all. I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling like they were thrown under a bus considering all the real harassment that happened alongside the 'bants'.

It's for the Headmin team to decide if they've seen enough. Our role is at best to offer our opinions and any new relevant information, their actual record should speak for itself. It's actually kind of sad to me what I've contributed to this shitshow where we've barely provided any actual substantial look on their ability to admin as only a few people in this thread actually interacted with Cynic in game. The rest is opining on the admin with the only new information being a lack of activity and the fact they feel hard done by. Regardless I'm done.

[Timonk]

So what you're saying is I can start a trial, go completely inactive, get promoted then be a badmin after 2 months?

[Nervere]

I am a shitload more abrasive than cynic, and I was still made an admin, without any trial extension at al

Look how that turned out.

[Lazengann]

So what you're saying is I can start a trial, go completely inactive, get promoted then be a badmin after 2 months?

Reread sentences 3 and 4