/tg/Station 13

Cynic716 has now been in the .txt as a Trial Admin for roughly two months since their last review.

Please use this thread as public review; it's encouraged for players to comment on how well/badly the trial admin has done and whether or not they think the trial admin should be made a full admin, if they should be removed from the .txt or if their promotion should be delayed.

My opinion about their performance as an admin has not changed, and they are fully capable for the role. I do not believe their delay was at all justified and their out of game conduct hasn't even been worth a passing mention anywhere two months after the situations with the ban that drew them so much ire. Even that was entirely not a good enough reason to delay their promotion. It was not indicative of anything other than being a target for a number of people with ill intent.

Simply put, it was absolutely ridiculous they got delayed in the first place, and if they hadn't been deadmin'd by now there is no reason not to promote them now.

they shouldn't have been delayed admin them now now now now now now now

they shouldn't have been delayed demote them now now now now now now now

Is using a Christmas themed discord name before thanksgiving has even happened.
This is completely unacceptable behavior from an admin, I expected better.
If MSO wasn't inactive, I'm sure he would have banned Cynic.
Besides that, I have no opinion.

My opinion remains unchanged from the last review. I don't believe less than two months is anywhere near enough time for a person to have a drastic change in overall temperament and attitude, and would heavily recommend against promotion.

NikNakFlak wrote:Is using a Christmas themed discord name before thanksgiving has even happened.
This is completely unacceptable behavior from an admin, I expected better.
If MSO wasn't inactive, I'm sure he would have banned Cynic.
Besides that, I have no opinion.

Thanksgiving was last month, though.

Laying low for 2 months doesn't justify promotion. During this period we got two new and controversial rule changes directly related to tamping down on player anger Cynic caused, which doesn't bode well for his future contributions to the community. Either deadmin or wait a year and see if he causes any more trouble.

Sandshark you almost had an original thought with "laying low for 2 months doesn't justify a promotion" but are you sure they weren't just playing different servers than you? a year's a really long time.

confused rock wrote:Sandshark you almost had an original thought with "laying low for 2 months doesn't justify a promotion" but are you sure they weren't just playing different servers than you? a year's a really long time.

This is someone with constant drama in discord and elsewhere, who got loads of (IMO justified) pushback in the previous thread for flying off the handle and using admin powers for stupid reasons. Not causing drama for 2 months isn't an achievement, it's expected.

I strongly doubt either Deedubya or Sandshark have even remotely encountered them outside of hearsay and in the NTR hut, and unless they have some actual firsthand experiences to provide that isn't in the context of a shitpost board then this is just a repeat of what got Cynic delayed in the first place, which was crock. If we're taking NTR Hut Drama Weenies words as constructive feedback I really don't know what to think.

NecromancerAnne wrote:I strongly doubt either Deedubya or Sandshark have even remotely encountered them outside of hearsay and in the NTR hut, and unless they have some actual firsthand experiences to provide that isn't in the context of a shitpost board then this is just a repeat of what got Cynic delayed in the first place, which was crock. If we're taking NTR Hut Drama Weenies words as constructive feedback I really don't know what to think.

Have you perhaps considered the possibility that things outside of your narrow viewpoint could be true?

I understand wanting to stick up for a friend, I really do. But it would be more beneficial to everyone involved to take a more objective look at their overall behavior and temperament. Just because they're your friend, doesn't mean they're well-suited to a position of power. Cronyism is not good practice.

deedubya wrote:Have you perhaps considered the possibility that things outside of your narrow viewpoint could be true?

I understand wanting to stick up for a friend, I really do. But it would be more beneficial to everyone involved to take a more objective look at their overall behavior and temperament. Just because they're your friend, doesn't mean they're well-suited to a position of power. Cronyism is not good practice.

why does it have to be objective looks? most trial threads have posts from people with firsthand account of admin conduct
I say cynic should be promoted if they survived their trial extension without any problems!

imagine getting criticised by a guy playing a loli catgirl with a name like ssjdark warrior

5h-ish of ghost in the last 30 days.... are you gonna be active or not

Not really seeing any proper criticism here of how Cynic currently is as a admin compared to how they were when the trial was extended. From what I can tell on statbus they have played a little and admin a little in the past month, it wouldn't be unfair to say they've kept their head down but on the flip-side that seemed to be what people wanted from them.

Literally nothing said in this thread is about how they currently are and it's disgusting. Not that I expected anything better.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:Not really seeing any proper criticism here of how Cynic currently is as a admin compared to how they were when the trial was extended. From what I can tell on statbus they have played a little and admin a little in the past month, it wouldn't be unfair to say they've kept their head down but on the flip-side that seemed to be what people wanted from them.

Literally nothing said in this thread is about how they currently are and it's disgusting. Not that I expected anything better.

If you have to hide away and not log in to avoid controversy long enough to get a permanent spot, should you really be an admin? We'd prefer Cynic be a good admin, not an absentee and certainly not a fragile hall monitor like before. His previous behavior certainly wasn't good, and his current behavior isn't exactly active from the players' perspective.

are you being a dick on purpose?

oranges wrote:are you being a dick on purpose?

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

I have no problems with cynics administration or conduct but I only became more active again recently.

Lets be clear here, Cynic's trial wasn't extended for any admin abuse in-game. The reason given was for their attitude in discord where they got into arguments then seek action when they felt the other party went too far; they are still active on discord now and I've seen them talk from time to time in the discussion-general area without falling into the same trap. The issue that extended the original trial has not come up again, I've seen nothing concerning from them and it's clear to me that they haven't completely given up on the community either.

I couldn't even say if Cynic deserves promotion; I didn't really admin much with them but the few times I did a long time ago I didn't have any issues. I would have thought something more substance would come up if they did a bad job as admin, but really we're still bogged down in some old discord arguments they had. I'd rather hear from people who dealt with them in game then some forum posters who just hate them.

Sandshark808 wrote:

oranges wrote:are you being a dick on purpose?

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

You didn't answer the question

oranges wrote:

Sandshark808 wrote:

oranges wrote:are you being a dick on purpose?

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

You didn't answer the question

It implies I'm being a dick in the first place. Why bother answering a false premise? This thread is about Cynic's capability to be an admin, not peanut posts like that.

answer the question

oranges wrote:answer the question

Imagine trolling a review thread and thinking you're entitled to a response.

what about you deedubs?

Sandshark808 wrote: he

don't call me a he you fucking dirt reptile

Second, deeb and sand are both people I have literally never interacted with (at least not knowingly or willingly) at any time outside of the forums. Third, imagine thinking that either of them have opinions worth listening to in any context except when deciding which brand of paint you'd like to taste. Fourth, my initial delay was complete horseshit based on hearsay and outright LIES it basically boiled down to "stop disagreeing with people for saying really horrible shit that we agree is horrible and do not want them to say but let them say anyway" and also that one incident with Dr. Aura where he told me he's allowed to make shitty transphobic jokes because "as a soldier" he's "trained to lack empathy" (he actually said that I swear to god)

In all honesty though if I got like any reason other than the one they gave I'd be pretty chill about it and I do still love all the head jannies, I just think they made a really bone headed decision on this particular topic and I ain't afraid to tell them so. also cynic is a call admin make her headmin NOW

cynic716 wrote:

Sandshark808 wrote: he

don't call me a he you fucking dirt reptile

Second, deeb and sand are both people I have literally never interacted with (at least not knowingly or willingly) at any time outside of the forums. Third, imagine thinking that either of them have opinions worth listening to in any context except when deciding which brand of paint you'd like to taste. Fourth, my initial delay was complete horseshit based on hearsay and outright LIES it basically boiled down to "stop disagreeing with people for saying really horrible shit that we agree is horrible and do not want them to say but let them say anyway" and also that one incident with Dr. Aura where he told me he's allowed to make shitty transphobic jokes because "as a soldier" he's "trained to lack empathy" (he actually said that I swear to god)

In all honesty though if I got like any reason other than the one they gave I'd be pretty chill about it and I do still love all the head jannies, I just think they made a really bone headed decision on this particular topic and I ain't afraid to tell them so. also cynic is a call admin make her headmin NOW

...I rest my case. Good grief.

While I don't have any co-adminning experience with cynic (different servers, timezones, etc), I will note that if you try to make a point about their conduct/presence as an admin and then undercut it by going out of your way to do something you know aggravates them, your opinion rapidly becomes less relevant to any reviewing headmin.

Arianya wrote:While I don't have any co-adminning experience with cynic (different servers, timezones, etc), I will note that if you try to make a point about their conduct/presence as an admin and then undercut it by going out of your way to do something you know aggravates them, your opinion rapidly becomes less relevant to any reviewing headmin.

Thank you for the heads-up. Hopefully the headmins will chime in if someone does that.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Arianya wrote:While I don't have any co-adminning experience with cynic (different servers, timezones, etc), I will note that if you try to make a point about their conduct/presence as an admin and then undercut it by going out of your way to do something you know aggravates them, your opinion rapidly becomes less relevant to any reviewing headmin.

Thank you for the heads-up. Hopefully the headmins will chime in if someone does that.

I just hope you realize that if your goal is "Cynic is no longer an admin" your goal shouldn't be "how many sick digs can I get in" and instead should be "how do I convince a headmin that my point of view is correct" and you are so far failing at the second one.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:Lets be clear here, Cynic's trial wasn't extended for any admin abuse in-game. The reason given was for their attitude in discord where they got into arguments then seek action when they felt the other party went too far; they are still active on discord now and I've seen them talk from time to time in the discussion-general area without falling into the same trap. The issue that extended the original trial has not come up again, I've seen nothing concerning from them and it's clear to me that they haven't completely given up on the community either.

This is something I've noticed aswell and is part of the reason I was for an extension initially; the fact that they understood this and changed their behavior shows that they're not a complete denthead and capable of reviewing their own actions, coming to a good conclusion and changing their behavior accordingly, which is a trait more admins should have.

terranaut wrote:This is something I've noticed aswell and is part of the reason I was for an extension initially; the fact that they understood this and changed their behavior shows that they're not a complete denthead and capable of reviewing their own actions, coming to a good conclusion and changing their behavior accordingly, which is a trait more admins should have.

This, essentially. The question here is whether someone would make a decent admin, not whether you want to be their friend. There have been plenty of admins who I personally found insufferable, but who did their job well enough. If Cynic doesn't do the job properly, then they'll get deadminned. But until then, all I see is a trialmin who wised up and passed their trial.

Has cynic considered that sandshark just didn’t think about it and said “he” without intending offense? Probably not. Being paranoid that everything is a personal attack is one of the reasons I never trusted myself enough to try adminning.

confused rock wrote:Has cynic considered that sandshark just didn’t think about it and said “he” without intending offense? Probably not.

Have you considered that sandshark could correct themselves if they made a mistake and apologize. It's not a hard ask if he didn't mean offense. Kind of odd he wouldn't know about that particular issue seeing as he comments in every thread about cynic.

The original impetus of the extension of their trial was to establish whether or not they were capable of containing their reactions to people and events that they did not like/agree with. To this end, they have not been reported as doing any such thing for the last 60 days...
Because in the last 30 days they have only logged 4.5 hours of ghost time.

Now, I am not going to attack Cynic for the way they went about avoiding potential conflicts and while I believe it speaks to their character, this isn't an accurate representation of how they will act going forward, which remained the entire point of their trial in the first place. Being able to hold their tongue by avoiding all issues resulting in being an admin by not performing admin duties only proves that they cause no issues when they aren't participating in the role we are considering them for now. Of the entire admin staff (inclusive of all parties on log), they were outperformed time-wise by 47 people, including our only current admin candidate, two of the headmins, half of the coders and every other trialmin currently on log. In furtherance of this, their last documented player interaction as an admin took place on October 3rd, putting a sizable gap between how active they've been and whether or not this could be considered their standard behavior going forward.

I don't believe this is grounds for deadminning however, as this is neither affirmative or negative in regards of how they are able to handle the requests brought to them by the headmins who decided to extend their trial the first time. I believe another extension is in order with a focus on time actually performing administrative duties to gain a more complete assessment of if they took the headmin's advice to heart.

Dr. Aura wrote:

Spoiler:

The original impetus of the extension of their trial was to establish whether or not they were capable of containing their reactions to people and events that they did not like/agree with. To this end, they have not been reported as doing any such thing for the last 60 days...
Because in the last 30 days they have only logged 4.5 hours of ghost time.

Now, I am not going to attack Cynic for the way they went about avoiding potential conflicts and while I believe it speaks to their character, this isn't an accurate representation of how they will act going forward, which remained the entire point of their trial in the first place. Being able to hold their tongue by avoiding all issues resulting in being an admin by not performing admin duties only proves that they cause no issues when they aren't participating in the role we are considering them for now. Of the entire admin staff (inclusive of all parties on log), they were outperformed time-wise by 47 people, including our only current admin candidate, two of the headmins, half of the coders and every other trialmin currently on log. In furtherance of this, their last documented player interaction as an admin took place on October 3rd, putting a sizable gap between how active they've been and whether or not this could be considered their standard behavior going forward.

I don't believe this is grounds for deadminning however, as this is neither affirmative or negative in regards of how they are able to handle the requests brought to them by the headmins who decided to extend their trial the first time. I believe another extension is in order with a focus on time actually performing administrative duties to gain a more complete assessment of if they took the headmin's advice to heart.

This is a very fair point.

If inactivity is an issue then we should have a look at some of our senior admins and their in-game administrative time. This is a voluntary position not a day job. If you wanna have minimum hours start paying us a goddamn wage.

Honestly I don't like cynic's adminning style and don't want them promoted but you need to remember the point of their extension was due to their OOC attitude and actions. I don't think their in game conduct was really ever in question, at least from the headmins. In game time wouldn't affect much, would it? If they've managed to keep their head down OOC wise in discord and shit, isn't that exactly what we wanted?

I wouldn’t apologise if someone called me a “fucking dirt reptile” at such “provocation”.

NecromancerAnne wrote:If inactivity is an issue then we should have a look at some of our senior admins and their in-game administrative time. This is a voluntary position not a day job. If you wanna have minimum hours start paying us a goddamn wage.

I'm glad you attacked the essence of the argument instead of the argument itself; if you had actually read what I had written you'd see that it's not a criticism of inactivity, but a criticism of attempting to pass inactivity as acceptable admin conduct when Cynic has not had any verifiable admin activity for the last 40 days. For your consideration: their trial was extended on September 17th, which means the last thing we can prove they did as an admin was 16 days later, meaning there is no verification of their conduct for almost 3/4 of this current trial.

In case you don't want to read that either, I'll surmise my point: Choosing not to admin for 40 days doesn't prove Cynic has improved with the headmin suggestions that extended their trial in the first place.

but sir! it behooves me to remind you that the rationale behind the extention was their OUT of game conduct! forsooth! verily! as such, their activity in game has no bearing on such matters! it is quite improper of you, dear sir, to bring up such information (see appendix a) in a review thread about their out of game conduct! for, as i'm sure you must realize mister sir, their old review thread ended with a post detailing information thusly:

While we don't have issue with their adminning within the game

quite improper of you sir! quite improper indeed! indubitably so, and thus i will advance the argument that this review thread, being made to review how they've been out of game, only requires information vis a vis (as they say in french) their out of game conduct, which clearly by posting about something else means that you must, indeed find most cromulent!
but that is not all! nay! in this 20,000 word pdf i shall attach as a companion piece to my argument, i will further detail all the ways in which your argument about activity is not relevant, but in an increasingly tedious way as you realize I'm just repeating the same point over and over.

appendix a:

It's frankly absurd to make a trialmin jump through hoops that have only arisen during their trial thread. If you want there to be an extension, can you at least try giving some workable criticism to mull over said extension?

Jimmius wrote:but sir! it behooves me to remind you that the rationale behind the extention was their OUT of game conduct! forsooth! verily! as such, their activity in game has no bearing on such matters! it is quite improper of you, dear sir, to bring up such information (see appendix a) in a review thread about their out of game conduct! for, as i'm sure you must realize mister sir, their old review thread ended with a post detailing information thusly:

While we don't have issue with their adminning within the game

quite improper of you sir! quite improper indeed! indubitably so, and thus i will advance the argument that this review thread, being made to review how they've been out of game, only requires information vis a vis (as they say in french) their out of game conduct, which clearly by posting about something else means that you must, indeed find most cromulent!
but that is not all! nay! in this 20,000 word pdf i shall attach as a companion piece to my argument, i will further detail all the ways in which your argument about activity is not relevant, but in an increasingly tedious way as you realize I'm just repeating the same point over and over.

appendix a:

Spoiler:

information

Out of game conduct AND issues that happened in OOC during games. Including the spamming of sounds grinding a players gears which caused the first major drama shitflinging fest involving both parties which brought their flaws to light.

Aura is completely on the right here. Cynic hasn't shown any improvement in that regard, he just avoided the game as much as possible in order not to fuck up as he's bound to do. It's the same as someone being permabanned, being unbanned, and then playing one day a week or so for 4 months, then turning around and saying "I've improved," when they just avoided the game as much as they could in order to draw out the time and try to establish a faux growth and development

cynic716 wrote:my initial delay was complete horseshit based on hearsay and outright LIES

If this is about changing their behavior, didn't they admit they think it was bullshit and aren't committed to changing?

Also, raging out about every little thing is one of the reasons for the delay. Raging out in this thread too doesn't help their case.

Dr. Aura wrote:In case you don't want to read that either, I'll surmise my point: Choosing not to admin for 40 days doesn't prove Cynic has improved with the headmin suggestions that extended their trial in the first place.

Which of those suggestions applied to their attitude in-game?

We have decided to extend Cynic trial for further observation due to issues rising up recently regarding their conflict resolution skills. While we don't have issue with their adminning within the game, we are concerned with their conflicts outside the game itself.

I appreciate your point is that there isn't much to judge on their in-game admin actions during this trial extension but the extension had nothing to do with their in-game administrative abilities. This isn't the first review; their in-game actions didn't raise any red flags, or at least nothing that was mentioned to be worked upon. It seems pretty disingenuous to use their in-game time to judge improvement on conflicts 'outside of the game'. If anything keeping out of those toxic arguments or ducking out when they heat up is exactly what was asked for them and it's kind of disingenuous to claim they haven't shown that based on 'in-game activity'. I think it can be fair to expect some activity from admins but I also feel Cynic taking a break is a good thing for them, I'd still rather see some actual concrete testimony on why they shouldn't be admin besides people not having worked along side them but disliking the arguments they previously had outside of the game. I have more respect for Wesoda's "I don't like them but they've done what was asked" then some of the shit you guys are throwing around.

confused rock wrote:I wouldn’t apologize if someone called me a “fucking dirt reptile” at such “provocation”.

Ah, the low road. Got it.

Sandshark808 wrote: If this is about changing their behavior, didn't they admit they think it was bullshit and aren't committed to changing?

Also, raging out about every little thing is one of the reasons for the delay. Raging out in this thread too doesn't help their case.

hey sandshark if you have nothing of value to add you can always just not post

While I don't speak for the current headmins, I'm going to note that as a general precedent an admin's conduct when not acting as a administrator (i.e. shitposting in NTR Hut, speaking in discord in a non-official capacity, chatting in OOC etc) has generally not been subject to scrutiny more so then any other random player. We've had admins who have been acerbic or combative before and depending on who you ask they would often be cited as great administrators.

My point being that if the main thrust of your complaint is "I don't like Cynic as a person" - this isn't actually relevant to their trialmin review, atleast going on how these matters have been handled in the past.

This is backed up by several generation of headmins making it clear in, for example, the admin complaint rules that note:

This is not a place for complaints about forum/discord behaviour.

Gigapuddi420 wrote: I appreciate your point is that there isn't much to judge on their in-game admin actions during this trial extension but the extension had nothing to do with their in-game administrative abilities. This isn't the first review; their in-game actions didn't raise any red flags, or at least nothing that was mentioned to be worked upon. It seems pretty disingenuous to use their in-game time to judge improvement on conflicts 'outside of the game'. If anything keeping out of those toxic arguments or ducking out when they heat up is exactly what was asked for them and it's kind of disingenuous to claim they haven't shown that based on 'in-game activity'.

The entire point of a trialmin review is to appraise the summary of a trailmin's actions, appraise them and decide accordingly if they are right for the position of a full admin. Again, I don't see any demerits for Cynic removing themselves from situations where emotions can boil over as I initially stated, but in this trial period I am expressing concerns about their approach of trying to avoid conflicts by not doing what expressly what we are here to determine, that being admin duties. If we ignore these facts and decide that Cynic is fit to perform these duties, how will they respond to those who would try to goad them into lashing out? How will they handle them?

The entire point of this extension was to test whether or not Cynic would be able to handle themselves in the face of this criticism, particularly in an OOC context. However, this lends itself to IC conduct in that adminship will require them to act outside their comfort zone at times, and holing up without action for a literal month does not reflect the kind of changes that this trial was extended to put on display. Regardless of what the reasons for the extension were, I treat every period of review as just that, and this is my finding of the most recent trial period that this thread pertains to; if they cannot demonstrate that they can act in an admin capacity, doing admin duties, without lapses in conduct, they should not be an admin. If we can further expect them to take two weeks on and then duck out for another six weeks, that raises questions in and of itself.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:I think it can be fair to expect some activity from admins but I also feel Cynic taking a break is a good thing for them, I'd still rather see some actual concrete testimony on why they shouldn't be admin besides people not having worked along side them but disliking the arguments they previously had outside of the game. I have more respect for Wesoda's "I don't like them but they've done what was asked" then some of the shit you guys are throwing around.

You can attack the nature of my arguments, the people who agree with them or myself all you want, but my points still stand in the face of such criticism. I politely disagree with you in that I respect arguments that speak to behavior lending itself to the actions of someone we want as an admin regardless of conclusion rather than solely their conclusions.

I think it's fine and normal to extend a trial for inactivity because we need to be able to see how a admin functions over a period of time. The previous trial ended clearly on the note they were capable of using their in game powers properly and that was during the period they did get a lot of shit from players and responded to it. In a very real sense they did that time, they were very active during the original trial; more so then most Game Admins. As little activity as we might have seen over the past six weeks, no new issues have arisen. Sure we could say they are keeping their head low but frankly given how people are I don't blame them. I'm surprised they still want to bother; it's clear a small section of the community will continue to goad and prod reactions out of people they think are more sensitive. It's not limited to one admin and it'll no doubt continue complete with disingenuous defenses of the mere banter these prods take.

I'll say this much; Trialmin, Game Admin, this shit won't stop so in that sense it's correct to say you need a thick skin. The difference between Trialmin and Game Admin is pretty much irrelevent; if you want to admin it doesn't matter how much they extend your trial, if you don't want to admin it's fine to take as many breaks as you want or outright quit if you've had enough. You aren't a lesser admin for being on trial and the only thing that will remove you from Trial is long inactivity or outright abuse of the position so take it in your own time and make the call on whether you think the community is worth the time.

Ugh walls of text I'm not going to read it all

TL;DR DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER YOU DIRT REPTILE and other horrible reactions. I don't think they should be an admin since they act rather... Impulsive to transgender jokes. I believe they should take these jokes more Likely or a horrible mistake is bound to happen someday.