/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

^ this

Because we don't deadmin folks for every mistake they make, it's disproportionate when a situation arises where someone gets deadminned.

Demoting someone, lecturing someone on what they've done wrong, making them apologize publicly, revoking buttons, extending their trialmin periods...

This is all "doing nothing" to you.

If we don't deadmin them we haven't done anything, is what you're saying, and it's incredibly ignorant.

REGARDLESS...you've spoken your mind on the issue of tedward's infraction and your idea of an appropriate punishment. If you continue to talk about anything but that in this thread, dredging up past infractions from other admins, I'm going to revoke your ability to post in this subforum. I wont have tedward's appeal devolve into a conversation about all the times something happened to you or someone else that you didn't feel were handled properly.

Tedward shouldn't have even been deadminned. He should have been scolded, maybe had his abilities revoked for a couple days. Not deadminned.

I realize you don't want past issues dredged up, but how is this more involved with community trust than someone who has made more than several bad decisions involving bans and ingame conduct? It's only disproportionate if you react disproportionately. Leaving the community basically in the dark for an actual incident involving bad behavior from an admin and then trying to get all their feedback for some stupid trivial shit is disproportionate.

Honestly, just admit you guys fucked up handling past incidents and this incident. There is no reason to be bringing the community in on this, don't try to push this onto the playerbase complaining or some other shit. I was under the impression we're all adults here. Maybe it's time to act like it and own up for mistakes so we can actually move on, because lately there have been a lot of mistakes.

>Don't bring up previous examples of how admin abuse was handled

What, if we don't learn from history we'll be doomed to repeat it.

I don't see why we have to evaluate every single instance irrespective of past precedents or user behaviour.

oranges wrote:>Don't bring up previous examples of how admin abuse was handled

What, if we don't learn from history we'll be doomed to repeat it.

I don't see why we have to evaluate every single instance irrespective of past precedents or user behaviour.

If you had a problem with how a situation was handled make a complaint about who handled it.

I explained already how this situation is not like the incidents people have referenced. This is a situation where an admin spawned an item for themselves to benefit themselves in a round. It's very cut and dry. Very black and white.

People keep posting or referencing examples of admins affecting other players rounds, spawning items for them, on them, or affecting their mobs. It's ALSO bad behavior but it's a different kind of bad behavior and is handled differently.

That's all there is to it.

I disagree with the black and white characterisation you're giving it here. I'm of the view that judgements should involve taking a broad look at past admin abuse incidents, weighting the severity of the incident against these and the admins general behaviour.

You're taking such a narrow view compared to what I would take, it's not like we have so many admin complaints we can't afford to be thorough about it.

Making a complaint about an admin over how they handled a complaint about an admin probably wouldn't result in anything, considering situations like those actually require a community discussion.
So are you also saying that from now on all instances of admins abusing their privileges to give themself an ingame advantage will be handled with a community discussion and vote, or are you just trying to invalidate what oranges is saying?

Thanks for totally ignoring my post which was mainly directed at you by the way, Anon. Always the politician. We elected you as our headmin. You should be contributing to the discussion and exploring possible ways to fix the problems that have occurred, as well as addressing concerns about how it's being handled. You shouldn't be playing mediator or forum moderator.

oranges wrote:I disagree with the black and white characterisation you're giving it here. I'm of the view that judgements should involve taking a broad look at past admin abuse incidents, weighting the severity of the incident against these and the admins general behaviour.

You're taking such a narrow view compared to what I would take, it's not like we have so many admin complaints we can't afford to be thorough about it.

Not spawning items for yourself while playing is a cardinal rule.

It's really easy not to break it.

He broke it.

How is that not black and white?

AdenAbrafo wrote:-snip-

I had explained all this already well before you even posted. Go read my first post in this thread. No, everything will not be put to a community vote going forward. This situation has some circumstances surrounding it we were unsure of. I'm doing exactly what you said I should be doing, going to the community for clarification of the decision, empowering them to decide whether this strange outlier sticks or doesn't.

The alternative is we just decide for ourselves and then you complain about how we ignore you. How are you complaining that we are ignoring the opinion of the community when we are polling you directly for your idea of how this particular major incident should be resolved?

Of course we have our own opinions on this. However when the discussions turned to whether or not something this relatively minor would still cause an outrage in the community was something we didn't want to speak for, when we could easily ask you guys what you think.

I think many of you have already expressed your opinion on the matter quite clearly, and it's not far off with what we thought either. It builds confidence that what whatever decision we come to was the one you guys would have wanted.

Would we do this again? Probably not, given the outrage was directed more towards us than the actual incident in question. We will more likely be seeking a solution with less display next time.

We're not outraged it's just confusing. You're like abusive parents

oranges wrote:We're not outraged it's just confusing. You're like abusive parents

If we give you a voice you complain that we can't make judgements on our own.

If we call things how we see them, you complain that we don't listen to you.

We may act like abusive parents, but that's because you guys act like spoiled children.

Ayy can we stop with the lame name-calling in shitty analogies?

Given Tedward's excellent track record, his helpful nature and the fact that the item he spawned for himself was a freaking stamp of all things (there is a traitor item that lets one forge any stamp on the station), I really think you guys should give him a second chance. People make mistakes, that is why we have the ability to learn.

Now if he doesn't learn from it, that's when you should deadmin him. But since this is Tedward we're talking about, I would be very surprised (and very disappointed) if he did something like this again.

My questioning whether incidents such as this will be put to a vote was more rhetorical and in response to this, as well as you trying to invalidate what oranges said with it.

An0n3 wrote:

oranges wrote:It's ALSO bad behavior but it's a different kind of bad behavior and is handled differently.

I think we're misunderstanding why some of us aren't happy with things. It isn't about how you aren't getting feedback from the community, it's about how you are getting feedback from the community in some situations that don't warrant and no feedback in situations that really don't need it.
This is not a major incident. The incidents involving SM as well as more recent past ones were major incidents that were handled within that should have had community input. This is a minor incident that is getting community feedback which should have been handled within.

An0n3 wrote:

oranges wrote:-snoop-

We are complaining you 'can't do things on your own' because you are giving us a voice when we really shouldn't have to talk, and we are complaining because when you call things how you see them you haven't made good calls in the past.

also come on, man.

AdenAbrafo wrote:don't try to push this onto the playerbase complaining or some other shit

Ikarrus wrote:Of course we have our own opinions on this. However when the discussions turned to whether or not something this relatively minor would still cause an outrage in the community was something we didn't want to speak for, when we could easily ask you guys what you think.

I think many of you have already expressed your opinion on the matter quite clearly, and it's not far off with what we thought either. It builds confidence that what whatever decision we come to was the one you guys would have wanted.

Would we do this again? Probably not, given the outrage was directed more towards us than the actual incident in question. We will more likely be seeking a solution with less display next time.

I honestly think the headmins and the playerbase aren't communicating their feelings properly. The outrage isn't directed at you, it's directed at when you seek community feedback and the handling of recent situations. When you request feedback for an incident that doesn't require it when there has been criticism of the administration then you may possibly get posts in the accompanying thread that are criticizing the administration.

Delicious wrote: The point was that this is being handled with far more severity than past worse incidents.

Or not as severe at all. These judgements coming down from on high seem schizophrenic.

Delicious wrote:

An0n3 wrote:People keep posting or referencing examples of admins affecting other players rounds, spawning items for them, on them, or affecting their mobs. It's ALSO bad behavior but it's a different kind of bad behavior and is handled differently.

The point was that this is being handled with far more severity than past incidents.

But those incidents were completely different kind of incidents.

This is far more severe because it's an admin using his admin powers to benefit himself in a round he was playing.

Perhaps that was our mistake, we misjudged the situation and believed incorrectly that the playerbase would take this more seriously than they have. But regardless of that, the intent behind why Tedward spawned that item is a severe transgression against the code of conduct an admin is supposed to abide by and we handled it internally exactly as we should.

If that's how you feel congratulations you have an opportunity to cheat the system and immediately reinstate Tedward as an admin rendering his deadmin effectively only a week long because of our mistake.

Otherwise we would've deadminned him permanently and left it that.

An0n3 wrote:

Delicious wrote:

An0n3 wrote:People keep posting or referencing examples of admins affecting other players rounds, spawning items for them, on them, or affecting their mobs. It's ALSO bad behavior but it's a different kind of bad behavior and is handled differently.

The point was that this is being handled with far more severity than past incidents.

But those incidents were completely different kind of incidents.

This is far more severe because it's an admin using his admin powers to benefit himself in a round he was playing.

Perhaps that was our mistake, we misjudged the situation and believed incorrectly that the playerbase would take this more seriously than they have. But regardless of that, the intent behind why Tedward spawned that item is a severe transgression against the code of conduct an admin is supposed to abide by and we handled it internally exactly as we should.

Oh boy, how is this far more severe than the other incidents we talked about? The other incidents we're talking about were mostly caused by the same administrator and were such bullshit that it's basically taboo to even talk about. Shit, whenever it's been brought up in OOC it's either been denied or OOC has just been muted after one or two comments.
You're acting like intent doesn't matter. Regardless if what he did was bad, which it was, how is it so much more severe than another admin fucking up multiple times both administratively and in character?

Also, seriously, stop trying to push back any criticism from the playerbase with threats about how you won't seek our feedback if we criticize how you handle things. That's petty and childish.

e: In hindsight it seems that you two might have been aware of how incredibly minor and insignificant this situation was, but created this thread as an attempt to take a step in the right direction. Yes, the community may have overreacted but the outrage is only from the seeming lack of ability to acknowledge your own past administrative mistakes openly.

An0n3 wrote: If that's how you feel congratulations you have an opportunity to cheat the system and immediately reinstate Tedward as an admin rendering his deadmin effectively only a week long because of our mistake

That's literally what you're doing.

It's far more severe because it's essentially cheating at the game.

You're acting like intent doesn't matter. His intent to use his powers to give himself an item he could trade to another player for all access. I'm very well aware of the intent that caused this situation, but you seem to be focusing on the effect and not the origination. It's very black and white otherwise.

I'm only going to the logical conclusion of events here. If people are complaining that it was wrong for us to look to them for an opinion in this matter and seek their judgement, then obviously the solution is to not do that again. This event has become something of a watershed moment in more ways than we would have initially thought possible.

EDIT: When complaining about past things that happened to you or were mishandled perhaps you should take care to make sure you are complaining to the people who were responsible for those things? Preferably in a place that is built for airing those kinds of grievances and not in the middle of a thread totally unrelated to your own issues.

This is a thread about tedward's conduct in this event and at large. If the issue you are bringing up does not involve tedward, don't bring it up.

I think I'm starting to see the problem here. The reason why most people have a "who gives a shit" attitude about this whole thing.



What Tedward did affected one person positively (himself), and absolutely nobody negatively (unless you include the aftermath, which would also mean himself).

The badmin things people in here are talking about did not affect the badmin in question positively... But most of time time, neither did they do much good for anyone else. What they did do is affect a lot of people negatively.



The latter is much more a "crime against the community", where the question what the community thought about the actions of the admin plays a much bigger role (the question of a good event vs a bad event). Those are the cases that you should have community trials for.

We shouldn't have community trials - hold them in public sure, but don't use the community as your stick, although you should take the community opinion into account, usually in a seperate thread.

oranges wrote:We shouldn't have community trials - hold them in public sure, but don't use the community as your stick, although you should take the community opinion into account, usually in a seperate thread.

That's more or less what this thread is. The poll isn't meant to be the single deciding factor, but a tool to gather opinion. If this is confusing some people I could take it down.

We're going in circles. It has been acknowledged what he did was wrong. People have accepted he should be punished. People do not think he should have been punished like he was. As I have said multiple times in previous posts, the outrage is directed at how you are handling this compared to how you have handled other things. Not with how you are handling it now.
He should have been punished, it should have been dealt with internally. No one thinks he should have got off free, but this is his first fuck up. We are criticizing how you stupidly jumped to deadminning him instead of a warning, or back to trialmin or something not extreme. You have even acknowledged deadminning is for extreme circumstances.

An0n3 wrote:EDIT: When complaining about past things that happened to you or were mishandled perhaps you should take care to make sure you are complaining to the people who were responsible for those things? Preferably in a place that is built for airing those kinds of grievances and not in the middle of a thread totally unrelated to your own issues.

This is a thread about tedward's conduct in this event and at large. If the issue you are bringing up does not involve tedward, don't bring it up.

Don't even try to give me this, you had a say in how the past incidents were handled. You are the headmin, you have a say and did in the situations that are being referenced.
They are relevant to Tedward because this is a discussion about tedward's conduct and the handling of his conduct is directly related to his conduct.
It seems like the playerbase and admins have different opinions on how severe different offenses are. With the administrators viewing ingame abuse as much more severe and administrative power abuse as less severe.

I'd like to request a town hall thread about the current administration so that the community's problem with it can be discussed in a proper enviroment.

Ikarrus wrote:

oranges wrote:We shouldn't have community trials - hold them in public sure, but don't use the community as your stick, although you should take the community opinion into account, usually in a seperate thread.

That's more or less what this thread is. The poll isn't meant to be the single deciding factor, but a tool to gather opinion. If this is confusing some people I could take it down.

Oh, in the original OP it came across as our decision would be the only deciding factor. Maybe i just read it wrong.

Ikarrus wrote: That's more or less what this thread is. The poll isn't meant to be the single deciding factor, but a tool to gather opinion. If this is confusing some people I could take it down.

Then don't call it a trial, that's misleading.

Aurx wrote:

Ikarrus wrote: That's more or less what this thread is. The poll isn't meant to be the single deciding factor, but a tool to gather opinion. If this is confusing some people I could take it down.

Then don't call it a trial, that's misleading.

I will keep this in mind, thanks.

Ikarrus wrote: That's more or less what this thread is. The poll isn't meant to be the single deciding factor, but a tool to gather opinion. If this is confusing some people I could take it down.

Oh.

Well shit. Sorry for overreacting.

Delicious wrote:

An0n3 wrote:Otherwise we would've deadminned him permanently and left it that.

Don't you think that is a severe overreaction? No players were taken out of the round by this. As far as I know, he didn't use his all-access to grief. He even found the piece of paper he needed to legitimise his claim to the access.

Spawning the stamp to convey an in-round advantage was bad and deserves punishment, but personally I think deadminning him over it is excessive. Making a big thing of it like this is excessive. It's especially laughable given past incidents (and current incidents...) that haven't gotten this public treatment or resulted in deadminning.

An0n3 wrote:If that's how you feel congratulations you have an opportunity to cheat the system

Uh, this is the system, as you've designed it. Don't try to make us feel bad for engaging with it.

I've said this to a couple other people but if you asked me as a player?
No I really wouldn't care jack shit about this. He didn't actually use the stamp for any purpose. No harm no foul.

I voted reinstate.

But as a headmin, as an arbiter and a leader of the community the rules as I've learned them recognize a moment where an admin gave himself an item with the intent to help himself during a round he was playing in, and the precedent we have handed down from similar events in the past is an immediate deadminning. So I recommended we do that. Regardless of how I feel about the actual effects of it, it's a very straightforward do-not-pass-go-do-not-collect-$200 deadminning.

But should it still be that way? Would the community be happy with that? Neither Ikky nor myself could say, because we aren't everyone. We're headmins charged with overseeing these rules, and the rules told us we had to do this but neither of us were very content with that as people who also play this game and know tedward.

Hence this whole poll. But lo what we thought was double-checking an old rule with the new community quickly turned into a soapbox for a bunch of people upset with pass grievances to come forth and try to get attention for completely random things. This very quickly became yet another "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation.

We asked you to decide on THIS PUNISHMENT and you guys meandered through all your own past misgivings and ranted and raved about a whole slew of other things. When asked to stop and get back on topic you cried oppression. In the future I wont bother to ask anymore.

I believe we've all made our opinions clear at this point, so I'm going to go ahead and re-instate Tedward as a GameAdmin.

I admit this all could have been communicated much better and It is something I will need to work on for the future. I'll leave this thread open in Town Hall for now, but consider a resolution to have been reached.

Can you really not admit you made mistakes in the past? Where would you like problems with past grievances to go?

Stop trying to push this onto the community. You are the headmin. You and the other two do not have to hold up to some standard that was established in the past. You didn't have to deadmin him right away, you could have examined the situation and asked yourself whether it warranted a deadadminning or something less extreme.
Also stop trying to invalidate any criticisms because there isn't a proper place for them.

Yes Anon3, we get it, the thread is about THIS punishment. Maybe make an actual place for the general discussion of administration.

Ikarrus wrote:I believe we've all made our opinions clear at this point, so I'm going to go ahead and re-instate Tedward as a GameAdmin.

I admit this all could have been communicated better and I will make sure I do so in the future. I'll leave this thread open in Town Hall for now, but consider a resolution to have been reached.

There are going to be incidents in the future. It would really probably help to open a thread focused around the actual discussion of the administration and what problems the players have.
I remember the headmins saying they'd look for more community feedback in the future, feedback isn't just restricted to black and white views on bans.


EDIT: also you really need to stop threatening us that you won't ask for feedback because you didn't get the feedback you wanted. Can you not handle the stresses of being headmin or something? When you accepted the role you were aware that the community isn't super nice to you.

I will certainly do that.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2517

And I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to come across as a threat. I am and will forever be open to your feedback, whatever it may be. I was well aware of what that meant when I took up this role.

The edit was more directed at Anon3 repeated comments that he's going to stop asking for feedback. Thank you for opening the feedback thread.

Kneejerk reactions help no one, An0n3.

AdenAbrafo wrote:Can you really not admit you made mistakes in the past? Where would you like problems with past grievances to go?

None of the past mistakes that were brought up in this thread were mistakes I made, mistakes Ikky made, or mistakes Tedward made.

People are making nebulous complaints about portions of the administration that have absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. People have attempted to use this situation as a second chance to unearth past incidents that are completely irrelevant and I wont allow it. It's completely off-topic and self-serving. It gummed up this entire proceeding.

I will admit to past mistakes if someone can bring up a mistake I made that is relevant to this situation.
But as of yet nobody has. And I doubt they can.

This incident isn't an excuse to shoot for a re-trial of everything that ever happened here, and it's disgusting that so many people immediately reached for that. Some people gotta make everything about themselves...and people say I'm self-important?

They are reacting via their environment. They feel they have been wronged. Look at why they feel like that. This community trial over what seems to just be good-natured-ness and inexperience in not truly realizing what it means to NOT SPAWN YOURSELF THINGS (essentially naivety) makes people feel almost insulted that this particular incident gets so much attention, when ultimately, it's not a big deal at all, but things they had more passion and emotion invested in were seen as not a big deal. The correlation is completely understandable.

An0n3 wrote:People are making nebulous complaints about portions of the administration that have absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. People have attempted to use this situation as a second chance to unearth past incidents that are completely irrelevant and I wont allow it. It's completely off-topic and self-serving. It gummed up this entire proceeding.

I absolutely disagree with this and it's a pretty gross mischaracterisation. We brought them up to show you that the punishment for this incident was extremely severe, considering A) The impact that occurred and B) The punishment for other incidents with near similar impact on the game.

I think you've misinterpreted that as an attack on the administration when it's not intended to be as such

What proceeding?You two weren't even clear what the point of this thread was when it was made, seeing as one of you thought it was a deciding factor and the other thought it was just a guideline. No actual discussion was ever going to take place, there was no actual discussion to even take place.
You're right, it isn't an excuse to shoot for a re-trial of everything and it isn't. You are being blamed for other admin's mistakes in handling situations because you are a head admin. You have authority over other admins and when situations involving how other admins are punished are brought up you are automatically involved. So yes, you have made mistakes in the past with handling admin abuse.
It's disgusting that you ignore all criticisms and cannot accept that since you are a head admin that you are partially responsible for the outcome of decisions involving admin abuse.

I think you've misinterpreted that as an attack on the administration when it's not intended to be as such

Basically this. Rich that you're saying other people are making it about themself when you're making it out to be a personal attack on you and the other administrators.

edit: In light of recent posts in other threads, it seems like the 'miscommunication' wasn't actually miscommunication and just a mistake. Points still stand.

It'd be nice if you could site some examples to back up any of that.
Show me the mistakes.

If there are so many and so great injustices wrought under our noses it shouldn't be hard.

An0n3 wrote:It'd be nice if you could site some examples to back up any of that.
Show me the mistakes.

If there are so many and so great injustices wrought under our noses it shouldn't be hard.

You're acting like I said there are a lot of incidents that have been handled poorly. Everyone is aware the incidents are those involving sticky, blessed and the other couple I can't find. They were handled poorly, do not lie. As a disclaimer, before you try to make it out to be that this is a personal vendetta I have against sticky or something to invalidate all criticism, I have nothing against him. The previous complaint I had made was simply because I felt there was a problem that needed to be addressed.
They aren't great injustices either, you're trying to over exaggerate what I'm complaining about to invalidate my complaints. I have made it clear that my complaints are about how past incidents were poorly handled. Not 'great injustices.'

You don't have to show me a ton.

Show me one.

I am literally telling you what the incidents are. If you want to dig them up in the archives you can. They aren't even in the trash bin. Found one for you. Go get the rest if you want to.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2081
This was handled poorly, do not lie. I am not contesting the final result. I am complaining about how administration handled it.

AdenAbrafo wrote:I am literally telling you what the incidents are. If you want to dig them up in the archives you can. They aren't even in the trash bin. Found one for you. Go get the rest if you want to.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2081
This was handled poorly, do not lie. I am not contesting the final result. I am complaining about how administration handled it.

How was it not handled appropriately?

Sticky was called out for doing a bad thing publicly and then lost a big portion of his admin abilities because he demonstrated he couldn't use them properly.

He was reported, judged, and punished.

What part of this was done wrong?

EDIT: Hell the whole thing was handled within five hours of the initial complaint.
I think you meant to provide an example of people botching something but you showed a pretty great example of us being on top of things, diligent, and taking player complaints very seriously.

Are you false-flagging or is there seriously such a lack of evidence for your claim the worst example you could find was this?

I literally posted the wrong thread because Sticky was involved in two singularity incidents. I can't find the other one but you know which one I'm talking about, that was handled poorly. The second fuck up of a high profile admin. The situation was extremely clear cut with him being in the wrong, yet you don't bother to ask the community whether they want someone who abused their powers, misused their powers and who basically released the singularity out of anger back in an administrative position. It was handled poorly.

I think you're talking about this thread?

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2205

The time Sticky unleashed the singularity as a station engineer, so we gave him a weekban from the server and a permanent jobban from engineer.

Nothing he did in this situation involved his admin powers at all. He didn't spawn anything or alter anything. He did something an experienced player should know better than to do, so he was given the punishment a player who should know better deserves.

He was treated exactly like a player would've been.

How was this mishandled?

Multiple people have told me he got deadminned for a bit over it and implied that it was an adminstrative issue, wow I am making myself look like an ass because I got information from misinformed people. Aside from direct fuck ups, I think most people think most situations can be handled better in regards to the community and response from admins in general.

Yes, you are proving me wrong when it comes to my claim of the administration directly fucking up in response to past incidents. This does not invalidate any other criticism from me or anyone else.

We should probably continue this conversation here:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2517

Since this thread is prettymuch resolved at this point.

An0n3 wrote:

AdenAbrafo wrote:Can you really not admit you made mistakes in the past? Where would you like problems with past grievances to go?

None of the past mistakes that were brought up in this thread were mistakes I made, mistakes Ikky made, or mistakes Tedward made.

People are making nebulous complaints about portions of the administration that have absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. People have attempted to use this situation as a second chance to unearth past incidents that are completely irrelevant and I wont allow it. It's completely off-topic and self-serving. It gummed up this entire proceeding.

I will admit to past mistakes if someone can bring up a mistake I made that is relevant to this situation.
But as of yet nobody has. And I doubt they can.

This incident isn't an excuse to shoot for a re-trial of everything that ever happened here, and it's disgusting that so many people immediately reached for that. Some people gotta make everything about themselves...and people say I'm self-important?

Ask someone to describe the colour orange and I guarantee you that most will refer to the fruit.
People speak in relative terms because thats how human brains work

And I thought my point was pretty relevant, both involved admins spawning items for themselves for personal gain.
The only differences were that HG spawned OP unbalanced implants and Ted spawned a stamp
And that HG claimed he did it for testing and Ted claimed it was to be funny.