/tg/Station 13

Ban requests will no longer be open for posting in.

-It was a waste of time for the victim: Arguing for a week because you spend 20 minutes sitting out of the game is a poor use of time

-It was a waste of time for the accused: Arguing for a week because you killed a guy in a videogame is a poor use of time

-It was a waste of time for admins: See above. Made all the worse by having to track down various parties and get them to post, drag up logs, etc. Half the ban requests sat for a month because nobody could be bothered anyway.

but kor what if I get griefed!

Adminhelp it

but kor the admin I adminhelped to didn't ban the guy!

Move on then. We don't need an appeals circuit all the way to the top every time the clown punches the mime. If you believe there is something improper going on (admin won't ban his friend, admin answered their own ahelp) make an Admin Complaint.

but kor what if I adminhelp and no admins are online

It relays automatically to IRC. You can also request an admin come to the server in #supportbus

but kor what if all 30+ admins are asleep

I guess he got away with it. It's still not worth your time to spend a week getting mad about it. It's just a game in the end, and you'll be alive next round (or on the other server when you switch, or in another game if you just tab out and do something else when you die).

but kor the guy spammed 300 messages in OOC, maxcapped the station as non antag, and used server crashing exploits ANd no admins were online AND every admin was asleep

PM a head administrator in that case. We don't need an entire forum for edge cases like that.

tl;dr Ban requests encouraged people to be salty for weeks instead of just letting it go and playing another round. It wasn't good for anyone involved, and I think we will all be better off without it.

Headmin votes:

Kor: For
HG: For
Shadowlight: ?

I never ever went to the ban request forum, even back when I was headmin.
It's such garbage but we've had it for so long it's going to feel wierd for a bit.



Good decision tho imo

I have to object to this (not that anybody gives a fuck about my opinion). On certain servers and times of day, most notably Bagil during non-absolute peak hours, the server goes for long stretches of time without being adminned, with hub players being the wildcards they always are. It goes to IRC, but I have seldom seen any admin actually log onto Bagil in response to one of those.

... I do have to admit that I kinda do object to this, but only for the petty reason that the salt contained within was delicious and sustained me. I amused myself greatly by reading it on a daily basis even if I couldn't peanut.

But I do agree that for the overall health of the community it had to go. I'll just be a little less amused at work from now on.

EDIT: I only noticed it was gone because that was the first place on the forum I wanted to get to.

I think it was an unwritten rule/open secret of the team that a lot of us just avoided that place out of habit. The response times for it were a lot lower than, say, ban appeals or admin complaint threads.

I am a little uncomfortable with 'let's allow more grief and more things to be Gotten Away With', especially with the recent issues on Bagil, but like. Griefing is way down even there. And Kor is right. It's not worth it. I worried myself to death when headmin taking everything so Seriously. And it's just not worth it.

90% of things should be IC issues anyway, so ban requests has always been redundant... sweet sweet vastly entertaining salty redundancy.

I liked the Ban Request section because you could write everything down there and it wouldnt go missing, like for example 1 random adminhelp. Yes, if the admins are not on top of their game it will mean more griefing and more bullshit will go unpunished in the long run.

A bit afraid that basically the whole wiki textbook of game rules will fall into obscurity even more with the fast path admin decisions.

Good

bandit wrote:I have to object to this (not that anybody gives a fuck about my opinion). On certain servers and times of day, most notably Bagil during non-absolute peak hours, the server goes for long stretches of time without being adminned, with hub players being the wildcards they always are. It goes to IRC, but I have seldom seen any admin actually log onto Bagil in response to one of those.

That sounds like maybe the admins should start doing their jobs. Just a thought.

FranzKrake wrote:I liked the Ban Request section because you could write everything down there and it wouldnt go missing, like for example 1 random adminhelp. Yes, if the admins are not on top of their game it will mean more griefing and more bullshit will go unpunished in the long run.

A bit afraid that basically the whole wiki textbook of game rules will fall into obscurity even more with the fast path admin decisions.

try writing stuff down on physical paper or in a notekeeping app

So the admins are closing the ban request forum because they never actually bothered to use the forum properly?

this is a good step forward

Sounds good in principal but... What happens when people grief when no admins around? Back when I played on basil I would ahelp repeatedly, no response, and would have to go onto IRC to even hope to get an admin on; and even then often I didn't get one.

I'm not going to make an admin complaint for admins being asleep, so the only solution is to make a ban request... except I have to do it in an ahelp the next day or something? Yeah ok.
This encourages people do be shitlers if no admins around because they've literally been told they will get away with it.

Just tell people to fuck off for shitty ban requests and close the threads.

lumipharon wrote:Sounds good in principal but... What happens when people grief when no admins around?

Kor wrote:I guess he got away with it. It's still not worth your time to spend a week getting mad about it. It's just a game in the end, and you'll be alive next round (or on the other server when you switch, or in another game if you just tab out and do something else when you die).

but kor the guy spammed 300 messages in OOC, maxcapped the station as non antag, and used server crashing exploits ANd no admins were online AND every admin was asleep

PM a head administrator in that case. We don't need an entire forum for edge cases like that.

Saegrimr wrote:

lumipharon wrote:Sounds good in principal but... What happens when people grief when no admins around?

Kor wrote:I guess he got away with it. It's still not worth your time to spend a week getting mad about it. It's just a game in the end, and you'll be alive next round (or on the other server when you switch, or in another game if you just tab out and do something else when you die).

but kor the guy spammed 300 messages in OOC, maxcapped the station as non antag, and used server crashing exploits ANd no admins were online AND every admin was asleep

PM a head administrator in that case. We don't need an entire forum for edge cases like that.

Yes, but there's a distinction between "server griefing" (bombing everything, trying to crash it, spamming ooc) and what I suppose you could call "interpersonal griefing" (the odd unwanted murder, 'accidentally' releasing the singularity, breaking silicon laws a few times in a round). Not that many players are affected, but removing 'Ban Requests' completely certainly encourages the idea that if no admins are online, you can get away with a hell of a lot more before you're banned.

I'm mostly fine with that because, as a sybil player, I'm mostly not affected by it.

Cheimon wrote:Yes, but there's a distinction between "server griefing" (bombing everything, trying to crash it, spamming ooc) and what I suppose you could call "interpersonal griefing" (the odd unwanted murder, 'accidentally' releasing the singularity, breaking silicon laws a few times in a round). Not that many players are affected, but removing 'Ban Requests' completely certainly encourages the idea that if no admins are online, you can get away with a hell of a lot more before you're banned.

Kor wrote:I guess he got away with it. It's still not worth your time to spend a week getting mad about it. It's just a game in the end, and you'll be alive next round (or on the other server when you switch, or in another game if you just tab out and do something else when you die).

>the rules don't matter unless admins are online or it literally fucks the server.

Well ok.

Wait so the plan is to make the head admins have even more work on top of their apparently already busy schedule? Or is the plan to just allow grief when there are no admins on?

The no admins time to grief prophecy achieves fruition

why do you guys keep forgetting ahelps still go to adminbus if no admins are connected

why do you guys forget #supportbus is a thing

why do you guys forget ahelps log

I'm beginning to think people who haven't played and/or adminned on Bagil in at least the past month (which is generous) should sit the fuck down. If you haven't dealt with hub players then you really have little room to talk in terms of dealing with grief.

iamgoofball wrote:why do you guys keep forgetting ahelps still go to adminbus if no admins are connected

why do you guys forget #supportbus is a thing

why do you guys forget ahelps log

Why do you keep forgetting what we actually wrote?

I have had SO MANY ahelps go ignored until I personally went onto IRC and pinged each and every admin until I got a response.
I also had just as many times where all the admins on IRC were afk, and got no response.

I have NEVER had an admin (that I am aware of) investigate an ahelp that went unheard the previous day or whatever, without further prompting... like for example, a ban request.

iamgoofball wrote:why do you guys keep forgetting ahelps still go to adminbus if no admins are connected

why do you guys forget #supportbus is a thing

why do you guys forget ahelps log

We had all these things when ban requests forum was open goof, so they clearly have little to zero effect anyway

Reasons why nobody gives a shit about the ahelp announcement bot in IRC.

<Mrs_Sybil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : dumbass | was this valid? - No admins online

<Mr_Bagil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : sh1td1ck | hey i have a question - No admins online

<Mr_Bagil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : retard420 | where is tool storage? - No admins online

<Mrs_Sybil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : xXassbuttXx | can i be a traitor next round? - No admins online

Things that will get handled if/when someone is available

<Mr_Bagil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : BestAhelper1995 | Johnny Assfuck just maxcapped the captain's office during blob. - No admins online

<Mrs_Sybil> AUTOMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT : Cool_Guy | George Melons killed like 12 people and was not an antag. - All admins AFK (1/1), stealthminned (0/1), or lack +BAN (0/1)

This is a bad and lazy action.

Ban requests didn't make people salty for weeks, people not handling ban requests made people salty for weeks.

I don't get why the admin attitude of simply not handling ban requests developed because most of the non-actionable ones were completely evident from the first post alone.

90% of those ban requests were basically trivial to handle.

The intention is good I guess but it's a bad decision overall.
Ban requests have always been worth the 90% of total shit threads of just people going "well i dun like him (((" and ic issues for that one thread where an actual shitter does get banned through the collection of evidence both by other people and the admin team.

Yes, you're right, you can go and just ahelp when you get clear cut griffed and killed randomly. You can't ahelp due to you thinking that someone has a personal grudge which is borderline reaching metagriefing unless you have evidence. Where are you going to compile this evidence? Are you just going to ahelp a pastebin link? It makes no sense, you're trying to go forward but you're actually just walking backwards whilst giving yourself the illusion that you're going forward at light speed.

Also goofball nobody wants to go on irc stop trying to force it jesus fucking christ saying "go to irc ex fucking dEEE" is not a fix to any of the problems that you use it on.

Saegrimr wrote:Reasons why nobody gives a shit about the ahelp announcement bot in IRC.
<snip>
Things that will get handled if/when someone is available
<snip>

So why not apply the same policy to ban requests? Close ones that have no value or do not have overwhelming evidence of shittery?

Good change

now i can do anything i want and never get banned

I disagree with the removal.

Even with the low response time at least making a ban request thread puts up something official that admins almost always tended to respond in.

Even though the response time is low there is still a response eventually. It can also give some peace of mind to the victims of something that they've written something physical instead of shouting into a void where there's a good chance there is no admin online or they have no obligation to respond with any outcome, if any.

I think PMing an administrator is the best course of action here. If they're not even acknowledging it, then make an admin complaint. Ban requests should be anonymous to the public, like ahelps are.

The amount of dumb drama over a free 2D game this is going to cut down will be immense. Great decision.

If someone is consistently really, really shitty then PM a headmin about it if you think they're flying under the radar for a long time. Otherwise adminhelp and accept it. Let the admins do their voluntary job, they know how to.

Probably for the best. For the most part I go to For No Reason, especially Ban Requests, for something funny to read at work. It's like the Jailhouse Report for space autists. I DINDU NUFFIN! The clown threw a pie at me so I stabbed him to death, why you ban me?

cmspano wrote:Probably for the best. For the most part I go to For No Reason, especially Ban Requests, for something funny to read at work. It's like the Jailhouse Report for space autists. I DINDU NUFFIN! The clown threw a pie at me so I stabbed him to death, why you ban me?

tbh I used to read it for the exact same reason, just to see the salt that would crop up over the most minor of things.
Most servers (hell, most online communities in general) explicitly call for any issues you might have with other users to be taken up with admins in private for a very good reason.

Screemonster wrote:

cmspano wrote:Probably for the best. For the most part I go to For No Reason, especially Ban Requests, for something funny to read at work. It's like the Jailhouse Report for space autists. I DINDU NUFFIN! The clown threw a pie at me so I stabbed him to death, why you ban me?

tbh I used to read it for the exact same reason, just to see the salt that would crop up over the most minor of things.
Most servers (hell, most online communities in general) explicitly call for any issues you might have with other users to be taken up with admins in private for a very good reason.

Oh good so I'm not the only one. I was starting to wonder.

RIP salt archive

rip steno

Once again, the only viable source of fun is removed.

DemonFiren wrote:Once again, the only viable source of fun is removed.

Yeah I have no idea where i'll shitpost now.

I guess theres always admincomplaints.

Because this shit tier idea is working out so well.

Case in point, this last round on Sybil. I adminhelp'd 5 times, got not a single response.

Joined supportbus, not a single admin joined.

--

I spent 20 minutes being shit on by a doctor that thought it was funny to pump me full of morphine while I was in a straight jacket, ahelped it - nothing.

Chaplain cremated as many people as he possibly could - not an antag - ahelp'd - nothing.

"But Jeb, ahelp's get forwarded to IRC!"

That only works if someone is there paying attention and actually gives a shit to join.

Yes, I'm salty. Very salty. 100% of daily intake of sodium occurred during this round.

type up whatever you'd have put in a ban request post and PM it to an admin.

Drop it in Kor's inbox since this was his idea :^)

(I'unno maybe a trouble-ticket kinda system might be kinda neato without the public dramaspectacle that is using an open BR forum)

So PM a headmin

Jeb all that shit got handled, calm your nuts. Niknak even told you he was working on it but you were way too salty in deadchat to notice.

>adminhelps relayed to IRC because of afk admins
>2 admins respond and come online
>2 permabans, 1 weeklong headban, and another guy 2 week antag banned

Seems to be working as intended

Kor wrote:>adminhelps relayed to IRC because of afk admins
>2 admins respond and come online
>2 permabans, 1 weeklong headban, and another guy 2 week antag banned

Seems to be working as intended

Significantly less full of sodium today, that round was rage-tier.

The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

Appreciative to see that something was done about that mess though.

Jeb wrote: The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

still faster response time than the ban requests forum tbh

Screemonster wrote:

Jeb wrote: The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

still faster response time than the ban requests forum tbh

Yes, but had they not joined, the shitlers that were removed would have essentially got away free and clear.

Ban requests is nice, because it allows you to (hopefully) wait until you're not full of rage, write out your complaint in detail with supporting evidence, etc.

The steno side of it is shit, but there was a suggestion above to do something like support tickets or something. That'd be cool.

I agree with Jeb

I don't like it. Ban requests was always an important part of having a complete coverage against griefers. I frequently see Bagil adminhelps cry out to an empty bus, and I know from first-hand experience that sometimes its hard to resolve shit that round. Sometimes I'd experience some awful behavior, assume its an antag, only to find out with 40 seconds to restart that it was just an asshole. At that point its sometimes easier to grab the log yourself and take it to Ban Requests than try to scramble out a coherent adminhelp before the round ends while forcing admins to make a call then and there with someone who probably quit after the round ended so you're only getting one side of the story.

I don't agree with a lot of the points Kor made. It's really not that intensive to respond to ban request threads, just require all the requestees to "do their homework" so to speak and bring a complete profile of what happened so admins can discuss the request on its merits. "Poor use of time" is a super subjective thing when it comes to online video games, I can imagine it would be very frustrating to be subjected to immense griefing, have it ignored because admins were all jerking off, then turned away on the forums because its not worth our precious time. Plus ban requests were a good place to have practical policy discussions that aren't just a bunch of free floating hypotheticals.

All the arguments stated at the start of this thread are extremely weak.

Processing ban requests only wastes weeks of time if they are just ignored and left open for weeks.

Seriously the amount of time to ACTUALLY HANDLE a ban request is minimal.

Tell me how much time did it cost you the last time you handled a ban request?

A lot of that shit ended with someone just saying "not actionable" after 3 weeks, while it was perfectly clear from the first post that it wasn't actionable.