Ban Requests has been closed

[Saegrimr]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Jeb all that shit got handled, calm your nuts. Niknak even told you he was working on it but you were way too salty in deadchat to notice.

[onleavedontatme]

>adminhelps relayed to IRC because of afk admins
>2 admins respond and come online
>2 permabans, 1 weeklong headban, and another guy 2 week antag banned

Seems to be working as intended

[Jeb]

>adminhelps relayed to IRC because of afk admins
>2 admins respond and come online
>2 permabans, 1 weeklong headban, and another guy 2 week antag banned

Seems to be working as intended

Significantly less full of sodium today, that round was rage-tier.

The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

Appreciative to see that something was done about that mess though.

[Screemonster]

The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

still faster response time than the ban requests forum tbh

[Jeb]

The two admins (thanks Niknak/Saeg/Bgo etc) that finally joined were at the end of the round/beginning of the new round. At that point, adminhelp's had gone ignored for 30+ minutes.

still faster response time than the ban requests forum tbh

Yes, but had they not joined, the shitlers that were removed would have essentially got away free and clear.

Ban requests is nice, because it allows you to (hopefully) wait until you're not full of rage, write out your complaint in detail with supporting evidence, etc.

The steno side of it is shit, but there was a suggestion above to do something like support tickets or something. That'd be cool.

[oranges]

I agree with Jeb

[Oldman Robustin]

I don't like it. Ban requests was always an important part of having a complete coverage against griefers. I frequently see Bagil adminhelps cry out to an empty bus, and I know from first-hand experience that sometimes its hard to resolve shit that round. Sometimes I'd experience some awful behavior, assume its an antag, only to find out with 40 seconds to restart that it was just an asshole. At that point its sometimes easier to grab the log yourself and take it to Ban Requests than try to scramble out a coherent adminhelp before the round ends while forcing admins to make a call then and there with someone who probably quit after the round ended so you're only getting one side of the story.

I don't agree with a lot of the points Kor made. It's really not that intensive to respond to ban request threads, just require all the requestees to "do their homework" so to speak and bring a complete profile of what happened so admins can discuss the request on its merits. "Poor use of time" is a super subjective thing when it comes to online video games, I can imagine it would be very frustrating to be subjected to immense griefing, have it ignored because admins were all jerking off, then turned away on the forums because its not worth our precious time. Plus ban requests were a good place to have practical policy discussions that aren't just a bunch of free floating hypotheticals.

[CPTANT]

All the arguments stated at the start of this thread are extremely weak.

Processing ban requests only wastes weeks of time if they are just ignored and left open for weeks.

Seriously the amount of time to ACTUALLY HANDLE a ban request is minimal.

Tell me how much time did it cost you the last time you handled a ban request?

A lot of that shit ended with someone just saying "not actionable" after 3 weeks, while it was perfectly clear from the first post that it wasn't actionable.

[ThanatosRa]

I have to point out that I hope the loss of this will curb some of the "I WAS INCONVENIENCED BAN HE!" culture we've got going on these days.

[oranges]

it wont

[Oldman Robustin]

it wont

Except before when you got a weak Ahelp you could always just turn them away to Ban Requests if they felt your ruling wasn't proper, now you have to sit there and explain in excruciating detail why you're right and even then they still won't shut up about it.

Since we're ending community debate on this, why not accept admin volunteers to run the show, rulings would be final absent headmin intervention, yadda yadda.

[peoplearestrange]

Another fine decision. The place was a hell hole that 90% of admins wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Very rarely did anything useful become of the requests and mostly it was just a place that caused more drama for forum regulars.

[Arianya]

Funnily enough its nearly a year later and the server hasn't imploded from the absence of the Salt Requests.

Really makes you think...

[Armhulen]

Funnily enough its nearly a year later and the server hasn't imploded from the absence of the Salt Requests.

Really makes you think...

salt overloads go into admin complaints and policy threads


BRING IT BACK

[ThanatosRa]

I have to point out that I hope the loss of this will curb some of the "I WAS INCONVENIENCED BAN HE!" culture we've got going on these days.

It hasn't.

[Armhulen]

it wont

I have to point out that I hope the loss of this will curb some of the "I WAS INCONVENIENCED BAN HE!" culture we've got going on these days.

It hasn't.

[oranges]

it's pretty bad right now, it feels like the only active admin is kevinz00 and the other trial mins

[bandit]

If only there was a log of all bans placed by ckey and admin so we could consult the data rather than people's speculation

[kevinz000]

it's pretty bad right now, it feels like the only active admin is kevinz00 and the other trial mins

When I'm one of the only active admins you KNOW there's a big issue.

[oranges]

If only there was a log of all bans placed by ckey and admin so we could consult the data rather than people's speculation

bans are not directly equal to admin prescence.

it's all well and good for saeg to show up and ban a few people based on admin helps and logs, but constant active admin presence on the servers is needed to keep the quality of the playerbase high.

[Qbopper]

If only there was a log of all bans placed by ckey and admin so we could consult the data rather than people's speculation

bans are not directly equal to admin prescence.

it's all well and good for saeg to show up and ban a few people based on admin helps and logs, but constant active admin presence on the servers is needed to keep the quality of the playerbase high.

I think with me and Doctor Pork getting candidate this is likely to happen more often

I noticed this month I've been playing a lot while admins are offline, and I got trial today - I'm hoping i can help alleviate that a bit

[oranges]

the point is it shouldnt' just be trial mins who are managing the servers.

[iamgoofball]

we have two options:

1. make the game not need 24/7 babysitting(ha)
2. make the game not open 24/7(ha)

[kevinz000]

we have two options:

1. make the game not need 24/7 babysitting(ha)
2. make the game not open 24/7(ha)

3. hire admins for 24/7 coverage(ha)
4. hope they're good(ha)

[iamgoofball]

and then when those people get bored of babysitting 24/7 for 0 dollars we end up in the same position

[Alex Crimson]

Could always just bring back Ban Requests and public logs.

[lzimann]

Could always just bring back Ban Requests and public logs.

Public logs are still (partially) working: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs

[oranges]

we have two options:

1. make the game not need 24/7 babysitting(ha)
2. make the game not open 24/7(ha)

Option 3
recognise it will always be a problem, attempt to make adminning more fun so that admins are online more often, be better about ignoring or rejecting shitty ahelps, grow a community culture of only ahelping in the most serious or egregious incidents and encourage admins to run more events and ignore players who complain about getting killed by admin events.

[DemonFiren]

we have two options:

1. make the game not need 24/7 babysitting(ha)
2. make the game not open 24/7(ha)

Option 3
recognise it will always be a problem, attempt to make adminning more fun so that admins are online more often, be better about ignoring or rejecting shitty ahelps, grow a community culture of only ahelping in the most serious or egregious incidents and encourage admins to run more events and ignore players who complain about getting killed by admin events.

(ha)

[Oldman Robustin]

Funnily enough its nearly a year later and the server hasn't imploded from the absence of the Salt Requests.

Really makes you think...

Beautiful straw man.

The argument was never "THE SERVER IS GOING TO DIE WITHOUT BAN REQUESTS AHHHHH!!!!!"

It's more like "The server is going to suffer a material, but not irreparable, deterioration in the quality of our administration without the ability to request bans"

And the protesting users are absolutely right. Our policy is more of a joke than I've seen it in years. I came here so many years ago because /tg/station was a shining beacon of due process and intelligent administration. When one admin stepped out of line either in harshness or leniency, ban appeals and ban requests were the dual checks in place to keep those shitty decisions from running rampant.

This wouldn't be a big deal if we had headmins who gave a shit about one of their only responsibilities, but we dont, I haven't seen it since 2015. Policy is an afterthought and as our admin's views evolve on various subjects, the problems become more apparent as they diverge over time. At this point it feels like Trialmins are making 80% of the policy decisions on our server and while I have faith in some (Kevinz, Durkel) I also see absolute shit coming from others (Danno, Sawrge). Not an issue if we have strong headmins will to make decisive ruling about what is and isn't acceptable, but like I said we haven't had that for years.

This is the sort of problem that doesn't rear its head overnight, it slowly eats away at the quality of our administration's decisions and undermines confidence that admins will make consistent, thoughtful, and proper rulings. We've had to rely on the hub to keep Bagil and Sybil off life support in the past year, maybe its just a fluke, maybe we never needed the hub at all, or maybe its a sign that /tg/ is no longer able to attract players because of our server's reputation for quality and so we must rely on random people wandering in the front door to keep our population up.

It's just speculation at this point, I'm not willing to say that I'm 100% sure our server is suffering from this absence of care about our policy, but nobody should be willing to say "LOOK WE ARENT DEAD YET!!!" as proof that it never mattered in the first place. Colonial Marines has some of the shittiest policy I've ever seen on an SS13-related server, but they still pull ~120 people during primetime because its a simple mode that is promises lots of action and fun and has an endless supply of hub players scoping it out. Does that mean their administration deserves a pat on the back? Fuck no.

[danno]

Lmao I'm not a trialmin

fucking what
what policy decisions have I made

edit: I had to debate so fucking hard about deleting this post and running with this to fuck with you so hard

[nsos]

as another sawrge alt i can confidently say that danno is not one the the sawrge alts that has been trialminned ty

[Qbopper]

Oldman Robustin posts should be closed

-they are a waste of time for the victim: Arguing for a week because you wrote an essay is a waste of time

-they are a waste of time for the accused: Arguing for a week because oldman posted is a waste of time

[danno]

maybe he hasn't read it yet
should I delete it and tell him i'm gonna ban him

[oranges]

At this point it feels like Trialmins are making 80% of the policy decisions on our server and while I have faith in some (Kevinz, Durkel) I also see absolute shit coming from others (Sawrge). Not an issue if we have strong headmins will to make decisive ruling about what is and isn't acceptable, but like I said we haven't had that for years.

What you are seeing is a consequence of admin bus not hiring any admins for ages and ages until they realised all of a sudden they had barely any active fullmins and then they had to hire a bunch of people who are doing all the adminning work and do not have any training or experience

[Qbopper]

At this point it feels like Trialmins are making 80% of the policy decisions on our server and while I have faith in some (Kevinz, Durkel) I also see absolute shit coming from others (Sawrge). Not an issue if we have strong headmins will to make decisive ruling about what is and isn't acceptable, but like I said we haven't had that for years.

What you are seeing is a consequence of admin bus not hiring any admins for ages and ages until they realised all of a sudden they had barely any active fullmins and then they had to hire a bunch of people who are doing all the adminning work and do not have any training or experience

ITT: oranges gets removed from adminbus because none of the trialmins wanna put up with his bullshit :^)

[peoplearestrange]

I think a "tidy up" happened, I was in adminbus and admin forum for awhile now, even after i've gone AWOL. But now I seemed to be removed.

Also Qbopper, the thing is these days trail mins are treated as if they are already full admins. I can remember when trails couldn't actively trial if no other higher min was around, hence being trained. These days, from what I saw, very little training happens. More like handed the keys and told good luck. I'm not trying to assign blame here, but it definitely seems like something that needs working on.

[tedward1337]

The trialmin uprising needs to be stopped! /s

[Qbopper]

I think a "tidy up" happened, I was in adminbus and admin forum for awhile now, even after i've gone AWOL. But now I seemed to be removed.

Also Qbopper, the thing is these days trail mins are treated as if they are already full admins. I can remember when trails couldn't actively trial if no other higher min was around, hence being trained. These days, from what I saw, very little training happens. More like handed the keys and told good luck. I'm not trying to assign blame here, but it definitely seems like something that needs working on.

I wasn't given proper trialmin until lzi saw I had a handle on admin controls and had some idea of how to operate.

[peoplearestrange]

I wasn't given proper trialmin until lzi saw I had a handle on admin controls and had some idea of how to operate.

No, I don't mean candidacy here. I mean actual Trialmin. The point of trail is not being competent in the admin tools (though that is part of it), but also HOW to properly admin, what needs to be looked at as a big picture. If you think admining is simply just banning RDMers and answering game mechanic questions then I don't think you understand the role fully.

[imblyings]

maybe candidates just have to be properly overseen for longer than just a few rounds

[Qbopper]

I wasn't given proper trialmin until lzi saw I had a handle on admin controls and had some idea of how to operate.

No, I don't mean candidacy here. I mean actual Trialmin. The point of trail is not being competent in the admin tools (though that is part of it), but also HOW to properly admin, what needs to be looked at as a big picture. If you think admining is simply just banning RDMers and answering game mechanic questions then I don't think you understand the role fully.

I misunderstood your post, sorry.

[YBS]

Even though I'm in nerd jail right now, I think the quality of general admin presence online is pretty high. It might run down to encouraging format to ahelps so folks don't just poop out "FUCKING NERDS HELP" whenever they're killed in combat. Typing them under the presumption that they're going in an inbox to be answered later would encourage people to be more articulate/explain more at the very least(maybe.).

In the 3-4 months I've been dicking around here I've never had an ahelp go unanswered & I definitely have the notes to prove others boops about me were never ignored.

That being said Ban Reqs and Ban Appeals are delicious reads. Glad it wasn't just me.

On admin energy, I've seen plenty of old posts about admins spiritedly building on the world (building their own shuttles, making npc bases, adding satellite spaces) and running events before -- have those policies/staff been gassed out?

[Saegrimr]

It might run down to encouraging format to ahelps so folks don't just poop out "FUCKING NERDS HELP" whenever they're killed in combat.

Those usually get outright ignored. Dumb vague shit that comes into IRC like
"Was this valid"
"Can he do that?"
"Help i'm stuck"
"Being arrested for no reason"

Nobody bothers with those, for good reason.

On admin energy, I've seen plenty of old posts about admins spiritedly building on the world (building their own shuttles, making npc bases, adding satellite spaces) and running events before -- have those policies/staff been gassed out?

It's always the young spritely trials and new admins that love doing that. I used to do it often and just got burnt out.
That or you put in a shitton of time and effort to make something and some idiot lets lord singulo loose and calls the shuttle 10 minutes in.
Or you put in a shitton of time and effort and someone makes a bit nasty admin complaint and policy thread that spans 4 months that you're interfering with their round or something.

[TehSteveo]

I think a "tidy up" happened, I was in adminbus and admin forum for awhile now, even after i've gone AWOL. But now I seemed to be removed.

Also Qbopper, the thing is these days trail mins are treated as if they are already full admins. I can remember when trails couldn't actively trial if no other higher min was around, hence being trained. These days, from what I saw, very little training happens. More like handed the keys and told good luck. I'm not trying to assign blame here, but it definitely seems like something that needs working on.

It's already hard enough to get admins as is; proposal like having veteran trainer on with a trial at any given time is nice and all but seems improbable at this stage. Hell, sometimes it's hard enough as is getting just someone on that can train and someone who is being candidate on at the same time. It might have been more probable when things were simpler; one server, less players, and more active veteran admins that weren't bored or burnt out on the game.

As such, trials generally still learn watching other admins and consult with others through Asay and Adminbus on things they are not sure about. Generally right now, this is all part the growing pains with the turnover that has occurred.

[Steelpoint]

Not fully related to this thread but I've noticed a interesting trend in some threads where you have two different levels of discussion happening, one small group of people actually remaining on topic and discussing the topic, and another larger group of people that just shit post and contribute nothing to the thread.

[Qbopper]

Not fully related to this thread but I've noticed a interesting trend in some threads where you have two different levels of discussion happening, one small group of people actually remaining on topic and discussing the topic, and another larger group of people that just shit post and contribute nothing to the thread.

Yeah, this usually happens in some form. I noticed how one of the discussions in the policy section suddenly diverged to ERP discussion for no raisin

[oranges]

that's because it's easier for admins to declare a thread a shitposting zone and quarantine it to the hut instead of deleting the associated posts, so people can easily get a thread derailed.

[Shadowlight213]

It's time to stop.