TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

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onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by onleavedontatme » #168149

Please leave feedback thanks.
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TechnoAlchemist
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:39 am
Byond Username: TechnoAlchemist

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by TechnoAlchemist » #168174

He's aight
Man_Shroom
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:02 pm
Byond Username: Man_Shroom

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Man_Shroom » #168191

Has good taste in music and likes Watch the Stove

Reminds me of a younger, more lazy Antonkr
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Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168230

Tried to help him in Asay with a confusing fight earlier.

He was initially hostile to my suggestions, kind of a "what are you smoking? are you crazy?" attitude. When I suggested that it was perfectly fine to mass-produce Meth as a chemist, he said he'd job ban me if I ever did that. He later apologized and was much more polite later on.

Thought he was a fullmin because he had access to all the buttons.

Jumped the gun multiple times in investigating the incident. Didn't finish reading the VV log and missed a couple big details about what had happened. He argued with the person who had originally asked for help for well over 10 minutes and I never felt he was quite right on our policy. The guy being accused never even crit someone, though he was a little out of line, but nothing worse than badly wounding a coworker in an intra-office argument, but Sawu was all over this guy like he'd just released the engine.

Im glad he improved his attitude near the end, but at this stage he's the kind of guy I'd wouldn't want to have answering my ahelps while playing. I think someone ironing out specifics about our Rule #1 policy and escalation stuff would be helpful.
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sawukoa
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:59 am
Byond Username: Sawucalls

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by sawukoa » #168238

Oldman Robustin wrote:Tried to help him in Asay with a confusing fight earlier.

He was initially hostile to my suggestions, kind of a "what are you smoking? are you crazy?" attitude. When I suggested that it was perfectly fine to mass-produce Meth as a chemist, he said he'd job ban me if I ever did that. He later apologized and was much more polite later on.

Thought he was a fullmin because he had access to all the buttons.

Jumped the gun multiple times in investigating the incident. Didn't finish reading the VV log and missed a couple big details about what had happened. He argued with the person who had originally asked for help for well over 10 minutes and I never felt he was quite right on our policy. The guy being accused never even crit someone, though he was a little out of line, but nothing worse than badly wounding a coworker in an intra-office argument, but Sawu was all over this guy like he'd just released the engine.

Im glad he improved his attitude near the end, but at this stage he's the kind of guy I'd wouldn't want to have answering my ahelps while playing. I think someone ironing out specifics about our Rule #1 policy and escalation stuff would be helpful.
I appreciate the reply, but you were the one who told me he was put in crit, and while I admit I missed stuff in the VV log, it wasn't because I didn't finish reading it.

The incident was resolved and you're painting a lot of it out to be much worse than it was.

I don't really feel its very appropriate to be making stuff up for the pure sake I disagreed with you, especially considering I admitted fault in the situation.
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Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168266

sawukoa wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Tried to help him in Asay with a confusing fight earlier.

He was initially hostile to my suggestions, kind of a "what are you smoking? are you crazy?" attitude. When I suggested that it was perfectly fine to mass-produce Meth as a chemist, he said he'd job ban me if I ever did that. He later apologized and was much more polite later on.

Thought he was a fullmin because he had access to all the buttons.

Jumped the gun multiple times in investigating the incident. Didn't finish reading the VV log and missed a couple big details about what had happened. He argued with the person who had originally asked for help for well over 10 minutes and I never felt he was quite right on our policy. The guy being accused never even crit someone, though he was a little out of line, but nothing worse than badly wounding a coworker in an intra-office argument, but Sawu was all over this guy like he'd just released the engine.

Im glad he improved his attitude near the end, but at this stage he's the kind of guy I'd wouldn't want to have answering my ahelps while playing. I think someone ironing out specifics about our Rule #1 policy and escalation stuff would be helpful.
I appreciate the reply, but you were the one who told me he was put in crit, and while I admit I missed stuff in the VV log, it wasn't because I didn't finish reading it.

The incident was resolved and you're painting a lot of it out to be much worse than it was.

I don't really feel its very appropriate to be making stuff up for the pure sake I disagreed with you, especially considering I admitted fault in the situation.
I told you they were *nearly* put into crit, 6hp, if you really want to settle it I can dig it up in the logs. The entire ahelp was made unnecessarily contentious because you repeatedly missed what people were telling you and doing incomplete reviews of the logs before jumping onto someone, first you're ready to ban the CMO because they killed the chemist who was stabbing his coworker over some meth, then when I inform you that you missed the entire stabbing incident, you do a 180 and start revving up your bans for the chemist who ahelped you despite the fact they didn't violate the rules either. Sometimes people act stupid, shit gets escalated, and the stupid people get dunked... that's all that happened there.

A better approach for you, and any admin, is to consult others first when dealing with a confusing ahelp. Don't be a bloodhound and start gnawing on someone's leg the moment you catch the scent of ~RULE VIOLATION~.
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NikNakFlak
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:08 pm
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by NikNakFlak » #168285

Logs
Spoiler:
[19:02:58]ADMIN: HELP: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): I'm pretty sure the CMO wasn't in the right in killing me after I was trying to give medical treatment to the other chemist who while I did beat up, attacked me after I dumped his meth. - heard by 5 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[19:03:19]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Do you remember the names of the people involved?
[19:03:59]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): So you fucked with medbay personnel, attacked them when they went after you, then the CMO stepped in and murdered you?
[19:04:05]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Hewy Lewis was the Chemist whose meth I dumped and then attacked me, the CMO was Caroline Treeby who beat me up and flushed me down disposals while trying to cuff the chemist.
[19:04:23]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : he IS medbay personal robustin
[19:04:37]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): I dumped his meth he was making and taking large amounts of. He tabled me, came back and pushed me over, so I tried to cuff him.
[19:04:49]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): I never laid a hand on the CMO who killed me.
19:04:55]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : yea, why does that matter though, the victim was medbay and that gives the CMO high ground to fuck him up
[19:05:17]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : uh no, it does not
[19:05:22]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : where the fuck are you getting your rules from
[19:05:32]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : you cant just murder someone for defending themself
[19:05:41]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : esp when theres no valid escalation
[19:06:02]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : how do you go from "stop making drugs and start making medicine" to "beat to death and throw down a chute"
[19:06:19]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Can you explain what happened with the chemist you murdered?
[19:06:29]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : Dept. leaders usually have a lot of leeway in dealing with rogue employees
[19:06:35]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): He was killing another chemist, and wouldn't stop when I told him to. Then he started attacking me.
[19:06:36]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : he wasn't rogue
[19:07:01]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : this isn't the case of "he stabbed the chemist to death and poisoned him", it was "he took the drugs and threw it away, then tried to turn him into security"
[19:07:02]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): Also I should add I only attacked the other Chemist after he tried to dump welding fuel on me.
[19:07:34]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): According to him, he was trying to stop the other chemist from producing mass amounts of drugs instead of medicine, and he wasn't even trying to murder him. The other chemist tried to light him on fire
[19:07:38]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : if I were a chemist and someone destroyed what I had been making over a sizable period of time
[19:07:57]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : if you were a chemist and you were making meth instead of medicine when people need medicine, i'd job ban you
[19:07:58]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): I don't know the backstory. I saw one chemist in crit, and the other chemist would not stop when I told him to.
[19:07:58]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : Id probably want to kill them and I wouldn't be upset if the CMO did in my place if I was losing a fight with them
[19:08:07]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): When I tried to stop him, he began attacking me.
[19:08:13]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Do you remember his name?
[19:08:14]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : Thats not even close to our policy
[19:08:19]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Which chemist?
[19:08:26]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): The one whom attacked you
[19:08:29]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Hewy or Douglas?
[19:08:33]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Douglas attacked me.
[19:08:37]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Okay, thanks
[19:08:38]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Hewy was on the ground.
[19:08:49]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : Chemists can make all the stupid chems
[19:08:52]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : they want
[19:09:20]ADMIN: ASAY: ShadowHunterOO/(Mikhail Faust) : Killing someone though because throwing away chems is absurd though, best bet the CMO could've just demoted him and threw him out of medbay imo
[19:09:29]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : it's not explicitly against the rules, but neither is throwing a tonne of bananas at them, but its still shitty
[19:09:37]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : and if you do it repeatedly, you probably shouldnt be in that job
[19:10:37]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): According to combat logs, you were never attacked, do you feel this is just a bit of a misunderstanding?
[19:11:13]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): I'm avoiding insane chemists. One moment pelase.
[19:11:40]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : I dont see where youre coming from on this Sawu
[19:11:45]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Let me check logs. I was pushed down by somebody.
[19:12:05]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): It just appears to all be some sort of misunderstanding, CMO thought you attacked him and it all went a bit pants up. In the future, avoid harassing other members and instead report them to your department lead or a Security officer
[19:12:12]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): I did
[19:12:14]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): CMO did nothing
[19:12:20]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : a chemist fucks up his coworker's chem stash, the wronged chemist fights back, the aggressor chemist attacks back with a weapon, at that point the chemist or the CMO has a right to murderize him
[19:12:21]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : purposefully harassing people is against the rules robustin
[19:12:37]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Ok. He attempted to disarm me and push me onto the ground. I considered that a hostile act since I saw him hitting Hewy.
[19:12:39]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : i'm not saying what the first guy did was right, but i'm saying the escalation was not valid
[19:12:46]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Okay, thanks.
[19:13:00]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : one chemist was stabbing another in the face with a shard, that screams "VALID ME PLEASE"
[19:13:28]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : it was literally the first guy tried to arrest the accused, failed and got murdered
[19:13:48]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : [18:59:39] Has been attacked by Douglas Cobalt(tetracobalt) with shard(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76.5)(102,105,1) = null
[19:13:55]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : about 6 shard attacks
[19:14:00]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : on who?
[19:14:15]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : sorry I stopped reading, he actually got the other chemist down to 6 life
[19:14:22]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : Well in that case
[19:14:27]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : i didn't see that part
[19:14:36]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): For the record, he went catatonic as soon as I asked him what was going on.
[19:14:58]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): We've reviewed the logs, and according to them, you tried to crit the other chemist with a shard?
[19:15:09]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : Sawu if the dude went catatonic
[19:15:12]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): We've looked into it more and action is going to be taken.
[19:15:19]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Against me or?
[19:15:23]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): I managed to knock him down, and then started dragging him to the vender so I could heal him.
[19:15:27]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Not you
[19:15:35]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Ok. Thanks. Sorry for giving you a headache this round.
[19:15:36]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): So did he got catatonic before you disposaled or hurt him?
[19:16:01]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Critting someone with a shard is not appropriate escalation, especially when you started the incident, it's considered ban-baiting or inciting violence.
[19:16:05]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): No, he went catatonic right now as I handcuffed him and dragged him away from the genetics clusterfuck after he started trying to push me down.
[19:16:23]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): So when he runs in and tries to set me on fire, I should just let him do it?
[19:16:38]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby): Oh this was after cloning, ok
[19:16:45]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): No, you should disarm him or run away and call security. It's an interdepartmental fight, not an alien chasing you.
[19:16:49]ADMIN: PM: Bananagram/(Caroline Treeby)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): Yeah. I don't know, man. Medbay has been chaos this whole round.
[19:17:13]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): You want me to disarm or run away from the chemist on meth and crank?
[19:17:17]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): I'm going to have to make a note of this, but in the future, please avoid randomly murdering people without at least trying to call security first.
[19:17:39]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : he didnt murder him, he just used a weapon to nearly crit him
[19:18:05]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): You didn't answer my question.
[19:18:13]ADMIN: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) has added a note to tetracobalt: Stabbed another Chemist into crit after he (Tetra) tried to stop the other chemist making meth and they refused.
[19:19:09]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Yes, you are supposed to run. Worst case scenario is you die and get revived a few minutes later. I'm sorry that this level of escalation occurred but you should consider the circumstances and other person's position before anything.
[19:19:39]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): So I should consciously make the wrong decision I know will result in my death?
[19:20:11]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): We all tend to view these incidents from our own biased perspective, but from his perspective he was just having fun, and you tried to screw that up. If he was the only chemist, sure, yell at him or whatever for not making medicine, but if you're a chemist to, you can produce more than enough.
[19:20:41]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): So by fighting back, I'm ruining the fun he's having by running around on meth trying to set me on fire?
[19:20:59]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): You said he only started doing that after you tried to stop him making meth.
[19:22:35]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): He tabled me before when I called him out on it, and the CMO did nothing. I don't care about his fun if his fun is picking a job just for the access.
[19:22:36]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : sorry about getting rude with you robustin, i didn't see the sharding and thought it was just a bad jump in escalation
[19:23:27]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): This isn't a heavy RP server, and there is a certain amount of lee-way allowed. He's still technically doing his job by making meth, and if someone asked him i'm sure he'd have made chemicals. The point is, unless they're going full pants on head crazy, just let them be.
[19:24:43]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): So I banbaited by stabbing him with a shard after he tried to set me on fire, but being a chemist and getting high all the time and tabling the other chemist when he calls you out on it isn't?
[19:25:12]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): No, it's not. Tabling doesn't harm a person in a grevious way, stabbing someone into crit does.
[19:25:27]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): Setting someone on fire is just as harmful.
[19:25:59]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): If the fire occured after he percieved you to be attacking him, it's appropriate escalation.
[19:26:22]ADMIN: PM: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt)->Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard): No, he tried to set me on fire after I dumped his meth.
[19:27:13]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): You still instigated a fight.


Hewy Lewis/Daftspy
It looks like a clusterfuck of confusion from both sides. The thing that sticks out to me the most is

[19:02:58]ADMIN: HELP: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): I'm pretty sure the CMO wasn't in the right in killing me after I was trying to give medical treatment to the other chemist who while I did beat up, attacked me after I dumped his meth. - heard by 5 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[19:03:19]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Do you remember the names of the people involved?
[19:03:59]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): So you fucked with medbay personnel, attacked them when they went after you, then the CMO stepped in and murdered you?

Why did you PM that guy when Sawu was already handling it and trying to get the full story and downright accuse the dude of shit before doing a single bit of any kind of investigating at all? Why PM him at all when sawu obviously had started the investigation? Sure, helping Sawu investigate by pointing out stuff he may have missed is greatly appreciated but you also just contributed to the frustration and confusion of that whole incident. If you're going to accuse sawu of "jumping the gun" and "being a bloodhound", try not being a huge shit eating hypocrite while you do it. In the end, I probably would have left it IC. The only guy who adminhelped was the one who got dunked because he was trying to stop the other dude from making meth which is fine and then communication just went out from there with his boss trying to stop him. Either way, he got cloned but ghosted so who cares? It looks like it was handled badly, but not because sawu is "a bad admin" but because he started to investigate something and you not only jumped down his throat but all over his investigation too. Lots of toe stepping. But this is just my opinion.
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Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168315

sawukoa wrote:
I appreciate the reply, but you were the one who told me he was put in crit, and while I admit I missed stuff in the VV log, it wasn't because I didn't finish reading it.

The incident was resolved and you're painting a lot of it out to be much worse than it was.

I don't really feel its very appropriate to be making stuff up for the pure sake I disagreed with you, especially considering I admitted fault in the situation.
[19:04:55]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : yea, why does that matter though, the victim was medbay and that gives the CMO high ground to fuck him up
[19:05:22]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : where the fuck are you getting your rules from
...
[19:07:38]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : if I were a chemist and someone destroyed what I had been making over a sizable period of time
[19:07:57]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : if you were a chemist and you were making meth instead of medicine when people need medicine, i'd job ban you
...
[19:13:15]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : there was no face stabbing robustin
...
[19:13:55]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : about 6 shard attacks
[19:14:15]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : sorry I stopped reading, he actually got the other chemist down to 6 life
...
[19:14:27]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : i didn't see that part
...
[19:14:58]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): We've reviewed the logs, and according to them, you tried to crit the other chemist with a shard?
[19:16:01]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Critting someone with a shard is not appropriate escalation, especially when you started the incident, it's considered ban-baiting or inciting violence.
..
[19:27:13]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): You still instigated a fight. (Last PM on the subject, over 20 minutes after it started)

I don't like log diving Sawu, but if you're going to accuse me of lying, I'm going to sort it out.
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Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168319

NikNakFlak wrote: It looks like a clusterfuck of confusion from both sides. The thing that sticks out to me the most is

[19:02:58]ADMIN: HELP: Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): I'm pretty sure the CMO wasn't in the right in killing me after I was trying to give medical treatment to the other chemist who while I did beat up, attacked me after I dumped his meth. - heard by 5 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[19:03:19]ADMIN: PM: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): Do you remember the names of the people involved?
[19:03:59]ADMIN: PM: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin)->Tetracobalt/(Douglas Cobalt): So you fucked with medbay personnel, attacked them when they went after you, then the CMO stepped in and murdered you?

Why did you PM that guy when Sawu was already handling it and trying to get the full story and downright accuse the dude of shit before doing a single bit of any kind of investigating at all? Why PM him at all when sawu obviously had started the investigation? Sure, helping Sawu investigate by pointing out stuff he may have missed is greatly appreciated but you also just contributed to the frustration and confusion of that whole incident. If you're going to accuse sawu of "jumping the gun" and "being a bloodhound", try not being a huge shit eating hypocrite while you do it. In the end, I probably would have left it IC. The only guy who adminhelped was the one who got dunked because he was trying to stop the other dude from making meth which is fine and then communication just went out from there with his boss trying to stop him. Either way, he got cloned but ghosted so who cares? It looks like it was handled badly, but not because sawu is "a bad admin" but because he started to investigate something and you not only jumped down his throat but all over his investigation too. Lots of toe stepping. But this is just my opinion.
Click spoiler if you'd like to read my short novel that explains, point by point, why NikNak is 100% wrong here and is out of line for trying to waylay me in someone else's trial thread. Otherwise, my thoughts on Sawu are summed up in the prior 2 posts.
Spoiler:
"If you're going to accuse sawu of "jumping the gun" and "being a bloodhound", try not being a huge shit eating hypocrite while you do it."

That makes two people here who need to work on reading comprehension. I didn't jump the gun, I read the logs, gathered an accurate idea of what took place, I realized the guy making the Ahelp was being a shitter and selectively hiding a lot of important details. So I laid out my interpretation of events (WHICH WAS CORRECT) and fired back at him to see if he could justify it. So to sum it up:

It's not jumping the gun if you review all the evidence and reach the correct conclusion about what took place. I made an accurate conclusion about the series of events at 19:03:59 while Sawu was still arguing at 19:27. My statement at 19:03:59 was one minute after the initial Ahelp and I missed Sawu's single statement asking for the names of other parties, so I initially made my response not knowing that Sawu had said anything. When he did, I let him take the lead. It IS jumping the gun when Sawu had determined that ALL THREE PLAYERS probably deserved some kind of ban when in fact NONE OF THEM did. He thought the CMO should be banned for murdering the meth-destroying chemist, he also argued that chemists who spend too much time making meth should be job banned, then when I informed him of how much important information he was missing, he did a 180 and decided that the person making the ahelp should be banned. Jumping the gun means you've reached a conclusion prematurely, careful reading of my statement would show that it ended with a question mark, indicating that I wasn't giving him my final determination (even though it was correct) but rather I was giving him my understanding of events thus far and putting the burden on him to add any other information that might not be in the logs.

"Ownership" of ahelps is not something I'm accustomed to either. I see an ahelp as appearing before a panel. One judge leads the inquiry but others may interject if they have questions that they feel would be particularly illustrative. The side-judges will never undermine the replying admin, but they can get more info that will be useful for any "backroom discussion" taking place in Asay. At no point did I ever contradict Sawu's Ahelp statements. My only substantive question happened shortly after the initial Ahelp where I intended to take the lead and hadn't noticed Sawu's short response asking for more names. I didn't jump in and go "Nah fuck that admin, listen to me". Once I knew the Sawu was fielding the ahelp, I let him take the reins after I had made a single statement to a single party. After that I kept the entire conversation in Asay except ~10+ minutes later when I reached out to someone to confirm when the person had gone catatonic. If you think that makes me the reason for this whole debacle, you're just deluding yourself.

Did you even read the logs Niknak? "Being a bloodhound"? At 19:04, if I had been running that ahelp, I would've ended it right then and there. As I explained in IRC, the meth-maker did nothing wrong, the CMO was a little too murder-eager but was still justified, and the meth-destroyer was the biggest asshole for starting a fight, escalating, then losing and ahelping about it... but that was all resolved IC and the ahelp, while stupid, wasn't a case of ban-baiting either. How the fuck am I hunting for blood when my deepest wish was to respond "This was proper escalation of force, your death was valid" at 19:04 instead of the shitshow that ensued. Let's turn to a dictionary to be absolutely sure about this:

blood·hound (blŭd′hound′)
n.
1. A hound of a breed having a smooth coat, drooping ears, loose skin especially around the jowls, and a keen sense of smell.
2. Informal A relentless pursuer.

Who is the relentless pursuer in this case NikNak? The guy who correctly decided that this was an IC-issue and ready to close the case with no admin action a few minutes after the first ahelp... or the guy who thought that each party deserved a ban and spent over 20 minutes trying to convince them that they had broken the rules. Do you realize how stupid it makes you sound to call me the bloodhound in this situation?

I spoke to the parties in this incident TWICE over the course of a 20+ minute debacle that entailed DOZENS of statements and questions by Sawu. These statements NEVER undermined or contradicted anything that Sawu was saying, they were merely supplemental questions I had so I could get more information was Sawu was dealing with the CMO's statements and explanations. The second statement I made was just to confirm he went catatonic after cloning. If I were handling a confusing 3-way fight I would be HAPPY to have another admin help me out and someone questions while i dealt with the accusee. Yet again you're claiming "jumped all over his investigation" and "jumped down his throat". The only fucking thing Sawu had said before I asked my question was "DO YOU REMEMBER THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED?", I didn't even see this question by Sawu because I had already jumped into the logs to figure out what actually happened.

Exactly 1 minute after the initial Ahelp, I asked that question to the Ahelper's, one minute was all I needed to reach the correct conclusion. Sawu had not made any statements outside of asking who was involved (which I had missed). Once I saw that the reply went to him first, I let him take over and limited my participation to Asay. How the FUCK is that hijacking someone's investigation or "jumping down Sawu's throat". Let's read this series of statements again:

[19:04:23]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : he IS medbay personal robustin
[19:04:55]ADMIN: ASAY: ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin) : yea, why does that matter though, the victim was medbay and that gives the CMO high ground to fuck him up
[19:05:17]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : uh no, it does not
[19:05:22]ADMIN: ASAY: Sawucalls/(Jaydon Woollard) : where the fuck are you getting your rules from

Who was jumping down who's throat again? Oh right, I'm the bad guy to Niknak, I always am and always will be <3. God forbid I try to ensure a trialmin doesn't hand out illegitimate bans (this was when he still wanted to ban the CMO because he missed the whole ""victim" stabbing his fellow chemist with a shard several times" little detail). Niknak this isn't even my review, just stop.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168333

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Y'all are wild
I don wan no trahble.

Seriously. Between Sawu claiming I made stuff up and then getting blindsided by Niknak, of course I have to dig through the logs and vindicate myself.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by NikNakFlak » #168340

Reading your essays is extremely painful. Everytime I have to argue with you, I lose interest because to do so, I have to read a 10 page essay.

The adminhelp came in and one minute later you tossed out that statement. If you can read logs in a minute, sure whatever but it always helps to get verbal sides of the story. Being right in the end is fine but your statement wasn't even completely accurate. "Fuck with personnel" is the not the same as throwing someone's drugs away because he's not doing his job well. Doesn't really matter either way but really, you are just being a cunt about the whole thing. A tip for the future though, from a log person myself, pull the entire logs like I did or else it's kind of cherry picking. The full situation presented first always gives a clearer story. And yea, I do dislike you. You're an asshole. A decent admin, but an asshole none the less.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Wyzack » #168341

Can you guys please move this shitfest elsewhere, this is about Sawu's trialminship
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Sometinyprick » #168342

I haven't seen much off you but then again I'm in a totally different timezone. Looking at what Robustin posted you did jump the gun but you admitted it was a mistake and everyone makes mistakes tbh. Only other thing I can say is you were pretty ok when you were a player and I never had any issues with you.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168358

NikNakFlak wrote:Reading your essays is extremely painful. Everytime I have to argue with you, I lose interest because to do so, I have to read a 10 page essay.

The adminhelp came in and one minute later you tossed out that statement. If you can read logs in a minute, sure whatever but it always helps to get verbal sides of the story. Being right in the end is fine but your statement wasn't even completely accurate. "Fuck with personnel" is the not the same as throwing someone's drugs away because he's not doing his job well. Doesn't really matter either way but really, you are just being a cunt about the whole thing. A tip for the future though, from a log person myself, pull the entire logs like I did or else it's kind of cherry picking. The full situation presented first always gives a clearer story. And yea, I do dislike you. You're an asshole. A decent admin, but an asshole none the less.
I pulled the full logs and got ready to post them, but saw you already did and realized it would be dump to respost them.

It didn't take that long to sort this out, "Halp CMO killed me and I dindu nuffin' to him" ---> VV --->See CMO killing him ---> Scroll up ---> See the shitshow that he initiated and escalated which led to his aforementioned death.

This was incident #98439 of someone starting a fight, losing, then ahelping for intervention. Only mistake I made was not noticing that Sawu had asked them a short question about who was involved before I made my reply.

For Sawu's part, like I said in my first post, if he learns the policy better he'd probably be a decent admin, but statements like "I'd job ban you if you made meth when the station needs medicine" just make me roll my eyes and wonder what other enlightened rulings he might make if he doesn't get a better feel of what behavior deserves admin intervention. It's a fundamental rule here that you have no affirmative obligation to help anyone (unless you're AI or the reason that person needs help in the first place). As long as you're not breaking the rules in some other way, no admin should ever care if the botanists grow weed instead of pods or the chemist makes meth instead of brute patches. This is well settled policy that a fullmin should not be confused about, as a trialmin he's entitled to learn but he flat out refused to accept my interpretation or hear my reasoning out - it wasn't until I pointed out that he missed a critical part of the logs that he cooled off and realized maybe he's not omniscient. Not much more to say.

Edit:

2 bonus questions. Is this his final review? HG usually clarifies that in the OP, and, Is there any reason he never got an admin feedback thread?
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by sawukoa » #168366

Oldman Robustin wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:Reading your essays is extremely painful. Everytime I have to argue with you, I lose interest because to do so, I have to read a 10 page essay.

The adminhelp came in and one minute later you tossed out that statement. If you can read logs in a minute, sure whatever but it always helps to get verbal sides of the story. Being right in the end is fine but your statement wasn't even completely accurate. "Fuck with personnel" is the not the same as throwing someone's drugs away because he's not doing his job well. Doesn't really matter either way but really, you are just being a cunt about the whole thing. A tip for the future though, from a log person myself, pull the entire logs like I did or else it's kind of cherry picking. The full situation presented first always gives a clearer story. And yea, I do dislike you. You're an asshole. A decent admin, but an asshole none the less.
I pulled the full logs and got ready to post them, but saw you already did and realized it would be dump to respost them.

It didn't take that long to sort this out, "Halp CMO killed me and I dindu nuffin' to him" ---> VV --->See CMO killing him ---> Scroll up ---> See the shitshow that he initiated and escalated which led to his aforementioned death.

This was incident #98439 of someone starting a fight, losing, then ahelping for intervention. Only mistake I made was not noticing that Sawu had asked them a short question about who was involved before I made my reply.

For Sawu's part, like I said in my first post, if he learns the policy better he'd probably be a decent admin, but statements like "I'd job ban you if you made meth when the station needs medicine" just make me roll my eyes and wonder what other enlightened rulings he might make if he doesn't get a better feel of what behavior deserves admin intervention. It's a fundamental rule here that you have no affirmative obligation to help anyone (unless you're AI or the reason that person needs help in the first place). As long as you're not breaking the rules in some other way, no admin should ever care if the botanists grow weed instead of pods or the chemist makes meth instead of brute patches. This is well settled policy that a fullmin should not be confused about, as a trialmin he's entitled to learn but he flat out refused to accept my interpretation or hear my reasoning out - it wasn't until I pointed out that he missed a critical part of the logs that he cooled off and realized maybe he's not omniscient. Not much more to say.

Edit:

2 bonus questions. Is this his final review? HG usually clarifies that in the OP, and, Is there any reason he never got an admin feedback thread?

I'm sorry I gave a bad impression, and I do admit in that situation I was a little forward with the content of my ahelps.

But as previously said, everyone makes mistakes and it's better to have learned from a mistake than to have never learned at all.

In the future I will err on the side of a higher admin's advice if I'm even partially unsure of the situation.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168368

sawukoa wrote:
I'm sorry I gave a bad impression, and I do admit in that situation I was a little forward with the content of my ahelps.

But as previously said, everyone makes mistakes and it's better to have learned from a mistake than to have never learned at all.

In the future I will err on the side of a higher admin's advice if I'm even partially unsure of the situation.
I believe you and if we're doing the whole final vote thing, I'd say extend the trialmemeship to see how you develop.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Xhagi » #168533

Ok.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Oldman Robustin » #168611

I've graduated law school years ago. I read a lot and type fast, which is why "a short summary" to me looks like "a hardcover novel" to some others.

I don't repeat myself though, not usually at least, I make sure each sentence serves its own purpose. I'm deliberate in my writing because I'd rather people misinterpret my writing because they're lazy and didn't read it all (which lets me call them out *cough* Niknak) than because I made it short and filled with assumptions about what people would know/infer/understand about the situation (which makes me look like an ass if I try to correct them). If it looks like I'm repeating myself its because one of us was sloppy either in reading or writing, and I'm not a particularly sloppy writer.

Anyway, those two questions I asked are still relevant: Sawu has no feedback thread and it's not clear if this is Sawu's promotion thread.
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Shadowlight213
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Shadowlight213 » #168678

Is a good admin from what I've seen. Also knows how to code pretty good.
I vote promote.

Edit:
Actually, I haven't seen them on too often. Changing vote to extend.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by lollerderby » #168838

Stop posting things that have nothing to do with sawu thanks.

On-topic, extend.
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Re: TRIALMIN REVIEW: Sawu

Post by Shadowlight213 » #193385

Sawu's trial was extended, yet someone keeps locking this and promoting them with no log.
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